What s Free Will?

[Hobie]

Truthfully, there is no such thing. And here is why. The will involves the choices we make. It always does what it most desires, and indeed it is free to do so. Something must be in our mind that moves our will, our choices one way or the other.

For example, one may desire to skydive out of a plane for the experience of doing so would give them. At the same time they know they are afraid of heights, know there will be a point before jumping of fear of the possibility of failure of gear, or being frozen by fear, the potential of great harm or death being the end result of jumping out of that plane. And this is much stronger that any imagined pleasure in skydiving, and our will, or choice is "No. Not ever!"

And here we run smack into the no freedom of the will. Our will is free to move us in the direction of our desires, it can do what we desire, but it cannot do what we do not desire.

If we move this into the place free will is usually moved in order to state that God gave us free will, therefore it is up to us to choose Christ, if our doctrine leading up to this place is sound according to the scriptures, that God is holy, and we are sinners alienated from Him, we will find a very interesting conclusion. If we insist on free will to choose Christ in spite of all the evidence concerning the will that has been pointed out, we will simply ignore it and keep repeating our free will belief in spite of the logical evidence given in the scriptures. We will care more about our comfort in our belief, for whatever reason, than whether it is true or not. We will continue to trust in our supposed free will choice for Christ, rather than trust God who says if you believe in the person and work of Christ, I have saved you.

In our natural fallen state, we do not desire God. The Bible tells us we are at enmity with Him. We have sinful desires and we take pleasure in them. We also have desires that are not sinful, but it remains that we sin because we are sinners. The unregenerate man does not see his sins as sin against God. The unregenerate man does not even like the word sin, and often scoffs at and mocks it. It is an old fashioned word to them, that is the product of "Jesus freaks." And to them it is one part of society trying to control all parts of society, restraining their fun.

Let's look at through an example the different reaction to a sin between the unregenerate and regenerate. Those in Christ know the Bible says to be drunk is a sin, mainly I think because many a sin is committed while being drunk. The Bible does not condemn the consumption of alcohol completely but only getting drunk. Which, let's face it is usually the reason for drinking. A Christian may fall victim to this desire, but his remorse the next morning is directed towards the sin he has committed towards God in displeasing Him. And he determines to never do it again, which may come to pass, or may not. Depending on which desire is greater in any particular moment, and his stage in the process of sanctification.

The unregenerate may make the same vow but for an entirely different reason. One that has nothing to do with sin or God, as he does not even consider it a sin. His reason is based solely on the way he feels the next morning if he has a hangover, or the embarrassment or shame he feels if he has made a fool of himself, or hurt someone, or wrecked his car etc. And even if the impact of the night before is so great that he never drinks another drop, he goes on sinning in other ways that he does not recognize as sin and quite likes.

So the unregenerate person cannot choose Christ because he has no desire to, does not know Him, and feels no need of Him. It is like my brother once said before he was placed in Christ and people preached the gospel to him. "Who is this Jesus you talk about and say loves me? I thought He died."

The unregenerate has a will that is free to choose what it desires, but one that is not free to choose what it does not desire. Just as is the case with every choice made.

The one who has been regenerated, something only God can do, has his desires changed by the grace of God. Those desires having been deeply seated in us through Adam, holding us captive to sin. These changed desires are described in scripture as being given a new heart. Not us changing our hearts and desires, but God giving us a new heart, placing us in Christ. Our desire now is for Him (a choice by necessity).

Well, basically we want to pick up that hot stove, and know it will hurt us, so we have free will and make the choice. Unfortunately, many will get burned....

 

[Arial]

Well, basically we want to pick up that hot stove, and know it will hurt us, so we have free will and make the choice. Unfortunately, many will get burned....

Man has a will that freely makes choices, but the will itself is not free. In your example no variables are given, but their had to be a greater desire/need to pick up the hot stove than there was to not pick it up. The subject of "free will" is relating directly to whether or not one can/will choose Christ. In the argument for it, the fact that we can and do make choices is always conflated with the actual subject at hand. That of choosing Christ. And the will is completely disregarded as to its never acting independently, but according to the person's greatest desire.

The Bible teaches that we are at enmity with God. That we have the very transgression of Adam running through our nature. In Adam we are a being that is a sinner and sins. Our sins are motivated by our desires. If we were to actually contemplate and come to understand what it means that we are at enmity with God, it would become more than just a statement to acknowledge and then dismiss in developing our theology and doctrine. Not only is He our enemy, we are His enemy. We do not have any genuine, heartfelt desire for Him, and we cannot create one any more than a tiger can change its stripes. Our sinful desires will always prevent us and our will is bound by those sinful desires.

 

[Reformedguy]

Truthfully, there is no such thing. And here is why. The will involves the choices we make. It always does what it most desires, and indeed it is free to do so. Something must be in our mind that moves our will, our choices one way or the other.

For example, one may desire to skydive out of a plane for the experience of doing so would give them. At the same time they know they are afraid of heights, know there will be a point before jumping of fear of the possibility of failure of gear, or being frozen by fear, the potential of great harm or death being the end result of jumping out of that plane. And this is much stronger that any imagined pleasure in skydiving, and our will, or choice is "No. Not ever!"

And here we run smack into the no freedom of the will. Our will is free to move us in the direction of our desires, it can do what we desire, but it cannot do what we do not desire.

If we move this into the place free will is usually moved in order to state that God gave us free will, therefore it is up to us to choose Christ, if our doctrine leading up to this place is sound according to the scriptures, that God is holy, and we are sinners alienated from Him, we will find a very interesting conclusion. If we insist on free will to choose Christ in spite of all the evidence concerning the will that has been pointed out, we will simply ignore it and keep repeating our free will belief in spite of the logical evidence given in the scriptures. We will care more about our comfort in our belief, for whatever reason, than whether it is true or not. We will continue to trust in our supposed free will choice for Christ, rather than trust God who says if you believe in the person and work of Christ, I have saved you.

In our natural fallen state, we do not desire God. The Bible tells us we are at enmity with Him. We have sinful desires and we take pleasure in them. We also have desires that are not sinful, but it remains that we sin because we are sinners. The unregenerate man does not see his sins as sin against God. The unregenerate man does not even like the word sin, and often scoffs at and mocks it. It is an old fashioned word to them, that is the product of "Jesus freaks." And to them it is one part of society trying to control all parts of society, restraining their fun.

Let's look at through an example the different reaction to a sin between the unregenerate and regenerate. Those in Christ know the Bible says to be drunk is a sin, mainly I think because many a sin is committed while being drunk. The Bible does not condemn the consumption of alcohol completely but only getting drunk. Which, let's face it is usually the reason for drinking. A Christian may fall victim to this desire, but his remorse the next morning is directed towards the sin he has committed towards God in displeasing Him. And he determines to never do it again, which may come to pass, or may not. Depending on which desire is greater in any particular moment, and his stage in the process of sanctification.

The unregenerate may make the same vow but for an entirely different reason. One that has nothing to do with sin or God, as he does not even consider it a sin. His reason is based solely on the way he feels the next morning if he has a hangover, or the embarrassment or shame he feels if he has made a fool of himself, or hurt someone, or wrecked his car etc. And even if the impact of the night before is so great that he never drinks another drop, he goes on sinning in other ways that he does not recognize as sin and quite likes.

So the unregenerate person cannot choose Christ because he has no desire to, does not know Him, and feels no need of Him. It is like my brother once said before he was placed in Christ and people preached the gospel to him. "Who is this Jesus you talk about and say loves me? I thought He died."

The unregenerate has a will that is free to choose what it desires, but one that is not free to choose what it does not desire. Just as is the case with every choice made.

The one who has been regenerated, something only God can do, has his desires changed by the grace of God. Those desires having been deeply seated in us through Adam, holding us captive to sin. These changed desires are described in scripture as being given a new heart. Not us changing our hearts and desires, but God giving us a new heart, placing us in Christ. Our desire now is for Him (a choice by necessity).

Some would define free will as the ability to make a choice that is not forced or coerced. If that's the proper definition then I believe in a will that is free in some sense. I am free to make a choice.

 

[Mr GLee]

God created a will that is subject to the Creator .He did not create Anarchy, every man to himself .Where there is not law mankind vanishes.

He gives mankind a hunger for hearings the will pf the gospel.The will the disciples knew not of . Empowering them to both hear and do it to His god pleasure .Some murmur and say what about my wil ?J

John 4:33-35King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work

Philippian 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you "both" to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[fastfredy0]

Some would define free will as the ability to make a choice that is not forced or coerced. If that's the proper definition then I believe in a will that is free in some sense. I am free to make a choice.

Agreed. The discussion always goes off track if one doesn't first define FREE WILL before going into the attributes of FREE WILL.

 

[His clay]

Truthfully, there is no such thing. And here is why. The will involves the choices we make. It always does what it most desires, and indeed it is free to do so. Something must be in our mind that moves our will, our choices one way or the other.

For example, one may desire to skydive out of a plane for the experience of doing so would give them. At the same time they know they are afraid of heights, know there will be a point before jumping of fear of the possibility of failure of gear, or being frozen by fear, the potential of great harm or death being the end result of jumping out of that plane. And this is much stronger that any imagined pleasure in skydiving, and our will, or choice is "No. Not ever!"

And here we run smack into the no freedom of the will. Our will is free to move us in the direction of our desires, it can do what we desire, but it cannot do what we do not desire.

If we move this into the place free will is usually moved in order to state that God gave us free will, therefore it is up to us to choose Christ, if our doctrine leading up to this place is sound according to the scriptures, that God is holy, and we are sinners alienated from Him, we will find a very interesting conclusion. If we insist on free will to choose Christ in spite of all the evidence concerning the will that has been pointed out, we will simply ignore it and keep repeating our free will belief in spite of the logical evidence given in the scriptures. We will care more about our comfort in our belief, for whatever reason, than whether it is true or not. We will continue to trust in our supposed free will choice for Christ, rather than trust God who says if you believe in the person and work of Christ, I have saved you.

In our natural fallen state, we do not desire God. The Bible tells us we are at enmity with Him. We have sinful desires and we take pleasure in them. We also have desires that are not sinful, but it remains that we sin because we are sinners. The unregenerate man does not see his sins as sin against God. The unregenerate man does not even like the word sin, and often scoffs at and mocks it. It is an old fashioned word to them, that is the product of "Jesus freaks." And to them it is one part of society trying to control all parts of society, restraining their fun.

Let's look at through an example the different reaction to a sin between the unregenerate and regenerate. Those in Christ know the Bible says to be drunk is a sin, mainly I think because many a sin is committed while being drunk. The Bible does not condemn the consumption of alcohol completely but only getting drunk. Which, let's face it is usually the reason for drinking. A Christian may fall victim to this desire, but his remorse the next morning is directed towards the sin he has committed towards God in displeasing Him. And he determines to never do it again, which may come to pass, or may not. Depending on which desire is greater in any particular moment, and his stage in the process of sanctification.

The unregenerate may make the same vow but for an entirely different reason. One that has nothing to do with sin or God, as he does not even consider it a sin. His reason is based solely on the way he feels the next morning if he has a hangover, or the embarrassment or shame he feels if he has made a fool of himself, or hurt someone, or wrecked his car etc. And even if the impact of the night before is so great that he never drinks another drop, he goes on sinning in other ways that he does not recognize as sin and quite likes.

So the unregenerate person cannot choose Christ because he has no desire to, does not know Him, and feels no need of Him. It is like my brother once said before he was placed in Christ and people preached the gospel to him. "Who is this Jesus you talk about and say loves me? I thought He died."

The unregenerate has a will that is free to choose what it desires, but one that is not free to choose what it does not desire. Just as is the case with every choice made.

The one who has been regenerated, something only God can do, has his desires changed by the grace of God. Those desires having been deeply seated in us through Adam, holding us captive to sin. These changed desires are described in scripture as being given a new heart. Not us changing our hearts and desires, but God giving us a new heart, placing us in Christ. Our desire now is for Him (a choice by necessity).

Thanks for taking the time to write and post this. I haven't read any of the responses yet.

One argument I've made is the argument from non-Calvinistic posters. Many (not all) argue against Calvinism for what they believe to be true. But almost always, they get to a point of no longer thinking. Their position is set, and they don't care if it is a staw man or not. They don't care if Calvinism is true. Their position is set, and oddly enough, they absolutely cannot choose otherwise. Here is another demonstration of the bondage of the will, a bondage toward what is most preferred. It is odd in that the non-C usually holds to the ability to do otherwise, but in practice many do not demonstrate anything like an indifferent will, or an ability to do otherwise. The practical contradiction with their ideology is a rather glaring red flag.

 

[His clay]

Agreed. The discussion always goes off track if one doesn't first define FREE WILL before going into the attributes of FREE WILL.

My typical definitions are "libertarian freedom/libertarian free will" and "compatibilistic freedom". I've simplified the competing stances below.

Libertarian freedom
-freedom consists in the ability to do otherwise
-will or agent is causally ultimate (freedom incompatible with being caused)
-coercion occurs when one or both the above is/are negated
-responsible when a person chooses freely
-choice: a selection between non-causal potentials (i.e. options)

Compatibilistic freedom
-freedom consists in the ability to choose as one most prefers (did what he/she wanted)
-only God is causally ultimate (agent freedom compatible with being caused in certain ways)
-coercion occurs when forced to act against one's highest preference
-responsible when a person chooses as he/she most prefers
-choice: a selection of one's highest preference among different options (i.e. objects of consideration)

I reject libertarian freedom as incoherent, contradictory to scripture, and unlivable.

 

[His clay]

Agreed. The discussion always goes off track if one doesn't first define FREE WILL before going into the attributes of FREE WILL.

Fair warning, I did a mountain of editing in my prior response to this post of yours. (post #27)

 

[Arial]

Thanks for taking the time to write and post this. I haven't read any of the responses yet.

One argument I've made is the argument from non-Calvinistic posters. Many (not all) argue against Calvinism for what they believe to be true. But almost always, they get to a point of no longer thinking. Their position is set, and they don't care if it is a staw man or not. They don't care if Calvinism is true. Their position is set, and oddly enough, they absolutely cannot choose otherwise. Here is another demonstration of the bondage of the will, a bondage toward what is most preferred. It is odd in that the non-C usually holds to the ability to do otherwise, but in practice many do not demonstrate anything like an indifferent will, or an ability to do otherwise. The practical contradiction with their ideology is a rather glaring red flag.

See the thread I just posted in Cal vs Ar "Consistent Hermeneutics: Calvinism vs Arminianism.

 

[His clay]

See the thread I just posted in Cal vs Ar "Consistent Hermeneutics: Calvinism vs Arminianism.

I'll have to check. At the moment, not yet . . .

 

[fastfredy0]

Fair warning, I did a mountain of editing in my prior response to this post of yours. (post #27)

I agree with your definition.