Second Attempt at Romans 9

[Josheb]

You expect every person to know everything upfront. I have prayed, sought the truth, diligently searched the writings of the early church, and come up with a new conclusion. My book explains Roman's 9 much better than any attempt here.

https://www.everybodymattersministry.com/downloads/predestination.pdf

First, you are beginning to use the word "you" in a derogatory manner. Please do not do that. Either keep the posts about the posts and not the posters or ignore my posts.

Second, I do not expect every person to know everything upfront. I have never said any such thing, do not believe any such thing, and it is wretched of you to think such nonsense of anyone without asking them first. Please do not put words in my posts I did not write.

Third, if your book expresses the same views as your posts then your book is not worth reading because your posts consistently show a profound lack of exegetical prowess. They do not apply even the most basic of precepts like correctly identify the author and his audience. That's Exegesis 101.

Fourth, I'm definitely not going to discuss your book if you show an inability to discuss one single op. This is the second time you have moved the goal posts. Surely you understand the Holy Spirit does not inspire or empower God's people to argue fallaciously. Ever! God is a God of reason, and He NEVER asks His people discuss/debate/argue or otherwise present a case for truth with fallacy. Every time a goal post is moved it is evidence of the flesh, not the Spirit. That same truth applies to ALL logical fallacies, including but not limited to red herrings, straw men, ad hominem, false equivalence, false dichotomy, no true Scotsman, etc. So far I have received at least one false equivalence, two moves of the goal posts and two straw men. Read through this site HERE before we continue so you know what to avoid. Check out a few websites on basic "bible exegesis" like this one HERE, or this one HERE, and practice what you find.

Fifth, and most important, please address the salient point I am making: taking scriptures written to and about people who already believe in God and already live in a God initiated covenant relationship with God and applying them to people who lack both is wrong. It is bad exegesis. It is bad practice. Bad practice leads to bad conclusions. Notice I have not yet discussed your conclusions!!! I'm trying to address the method by which those conclusions were reached. Romans 9 is one small part of one letter that was written to Christians - people who are already saved from sin and death - about Christians. Nothing in that letter should be read to have been written to anyone but to "the beloved of God in Rome" who know Jesus Christ. Chapter 9 is the beginning of a narrative that is three chapters in length, and even though it has content pertaining to Israel (not atheists) that content cannot and should not be separated from the fact it was written to and about the saints in Rome!

If your book left that out the book erred. If your book teaches something contrary to that then the book is wrong.

The reason verse written by regenerate believers to regenerate believers about regenerate believers cannot be applied to those who deny God's existence is because those two groups of people are completely different types of scripture. The same principle applies to Christ-denying Jews and Christ-affirming Christians. They are not the same type of people. This should be obvious to anyone who has actually read Romans 9 because verse 6 explicitly states not all Israel is Israel! Therefore, when ANYONE treats an atheist as if they are the same kind of people as regenerate, Spirit-indwelt believers in the resurrected Messiah based on Romans 9 they have abused God's word.

It's not personal.

That concept applies to EVERYONE. Every single Christian who takes scriptures about Christians and applies them to atheists has made a mistake.

Are you sure, are you not twisting scripture to suit your doctrine? Job is clear:

Yes. The fact is I have not posted any doctrine. People read doctrine into my posts quite often but that is their mistake. I try to avoid the problem of competing doctrines by sticking to the scriptures and what they actually state as a whole. This is the third time you've insinuated some negative about me, and I'd like you to stop it.

The facts are as I have posted and if you wanted to prove me wrong then prove any one statement of mine incorrect. That is the simplest and most direct to show me I should reconsider the op.

The fact is the entire book of Romans was written to Cristians not Christ-denying Jews or God denying atheists. That's a fact. It's not a doctrinal statement; it's a fact of the epistle. It is also a fact chapter 9 is part of three-chapter narrative and shouldn't be separated from the whole narrative, nor should the three-chapter narrative be separated from the whole of the epistle, which was written by, to, and for Christians. That is NOT a doctrinal statement; those are facts of the epistle. It is a fact the 9th chapter explicitly states not all Israel is Israel every single reader knows THREE types of people are involved in that chapter (the Christian, the Israelite that is Israel, and the Israelite that is not Israel). That's not a doctrinal statement; it is a fact of the epistle. It is a fact of scripture that God has MANY desires that co-exist simultaneously. That is NOT a doctrinal statement; that is a fact of whole scripture. It is a fact of scripture God desires to destroy the wicked. That's not a doctrinal statement; it's a fact of scripture. It is a fact of Job the book of Job was written to a covenant people living in a God-initiated covenant relationship with the God in whom they believed. That is not a doctrinal statement; it is a fact of the book of Job. It is likewise a fact the 36th chapter of Job specifies its own criteria. That's not a doctrinal statement; it is a fact of scripture. Exegetically speaking, the single best interpreter of scripture is scripture itself. That is not a doctrinal statement; it is the practice of the biblical writers themselves. The people in Job are all people who believe in the God of the Bible. That is not a doctrinal statement; it is a fact of the book.

Are you sure, are you not twisting scripture to suit your doctrine? Job is clear:

Yes, I am sure. I do not appreciate the insinuation and the notion is pure unadulterated hogwash that fails to address the few points I have made.

I have tried to simplify things in Post 59 for you. Just one question is asked and it's an easy question that should be answered readily and succinctly without further delay (or any other digression).


Who was Job? In one to four sentences, tell me who and what is Job.


I do not know how to make it more easy or more conciliatory for the two of us. Just answer the question asked.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, no one born ever started righteous.

Then why bring up righteousness. God denying unregenerate, dead-in-sin enslaved-to-sin-sinners have no righteousness. Don't dodge this question. Please answer it. If you know no one has righteousness apart from Christ, why did bring up righteousness?


Why say, "So even if that only happens to the righteous, it still shows there are two pathways, not one. No one is fixing destinies"? when you know righteousness does not apply to the atheist? Atheists do not have anything to do with Job 36:8-13, and if you disagree then the easiest way to do so is quote the verse that states it's applicable to the fool who says there is no God. Surely that does not take multiple posts. If such a thing exists then post it!

If not, then do us all the curtesy of saying so. Be honest with yourself and be honest with me and say, "Yep, you're right, Josh, there's nothing specific in those verses that is explicitly about atheists."

I can work with either response. Show me the atheist affiliation or acknowledge its absence. I'll reply accordingly.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Then why bring up righteousness. God denying unregenerate, dead-in-sin enslaved-to-sin-sinners have no righteousness. Don't dodge this question. Please answer it. If you know no one has righteousness apart from Christ, why did bring up righteousness?


Why say, "So even if that only happens to the righteous, it still shows there are two pathways, not one. No one is fixing destinies"? when you know righteousness does not apply to the atheist? Atheists do not have anything to do with Job 36:8-13, and if you disagree then the easiest way to do so is quote the verse that states it's applicable to the fool who says there is no God. Surely that does not take multiple posts. If such a thing exists then post it!

If not, then do us all the curtesy of saying so. Be honest with yourself and be honest with me and say, "Yep, you're right, Josh, there's nothing specific in those verses that is explicitly about atheists."

I can work with either response. Show me the atheist affiliation or acknowledge its absence. I'll reply accordingly.

You still refuse to acknowledge that regardless of whether it is talking about the righteous, focusing on:

He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But they are on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted. (NKJV, Job 36:7)

or both the righteous and the sinner:

"But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them. (NKJV, Job 36:13)

Whether hypocrite means the "righteous hypocrite" or sinner, it could be either.

There are still, as plain as a person's face, two pathways, not the IF in the passage:

If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. (NKJV, Job 36:11)

and

But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. (NKJV, Job 36:12)

Do you acknowledge that?

 

[Josheb]

Are you sure, are you not twisting scripture to suit your doctrine? Job is clear:

And if they are bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction, Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them. They die in youth, And their life ends among the perverted persons. (NKJV,Job 36:8)

You said:



Wrong. There is an IF statement:

Pathway 1)
If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures.

Pathway 2)
But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Tell me how your Elect, righteous person can:

perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge

No. Both "Pathway 1" and "Pathway 2" are dependent upon one single solitary condition: the opening of their ears. As I already pointed out, if their ears are not opened the there is no change in their outcome. What you call "Pathway 2" is nothing more than the same previously existing condition they had prior to their ears being opened. The larger truth is that once someone's ears are opened the only "pathway" they have is obedience and service. In other words, they either change or they do not change, BUT not changing is not a new pathway.

ALL of it is predicated on their ears being opened and the text does not predicate the ears opening on the human flesh. It predicates the opening of the ears on God and God alone. That is the relevant condition stated in those verses. Verse 8's "if" is rhetorical because everyone is fettered by sin! There no unfettered people living anywhere in the world. Everyone is caught in cords of affliction, even if they are not the particular afflictions attributed to Job. Keep in mind it is not Job speaking.

Yes, I am sure I am not twisting scripture, but I am sure you are. And if you don't want me to continue pointing this out in a personal awy the please keep the posts about the posts and not the posters.

Job 36 is written to covenant Jews in the context of covenant Judaism to covenant Jews about the soteriological aspect of that covenant. Verses 8 through 13 (verses you picked) say nothing about atheists. If you're going to assert a doctrine of salvation it needs to include the atheist and address the problems specific and unique to that group. None of the treatments of any of the passages cited do that. I can't take them all at once. You and I have to come to an agreement on Job 36:8-13 before we move onto the next passage cited.

Or you could just cut to the chase and admit you've assumed things in these texts they do not actually state. You've taken various passages about a covenant people who already believed in God and tried to make them applicable to the fool who says there is no God.
.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Who was Job? In one to four sentences, tell me who and what is Job.

Job was a righteous man who was put to the test by Satan. Because he was a man in whom God delighted.

The book records the conversations between Job and his friends, when Job was given to greif.

Three of his friends misrepresented God and misunderstood Job.

And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to your folly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has." So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did as the LORD commanded them; for the LORD had accepted Job. (NKJV, Job 42:7-9 )

This leaves Elihu, whom God did not rebuke. As he states:

I will fetch my knowledge from afar; I will ascribe righteousness to my Maker. For truly my words are not false; One who is perfect in knowledge is with you. (NKJV, Job 36:3)

This assumes that Elihu's discourse can be considered by God as correct knowledge, for he was not rebuked by God. He is the one who stated:

And if they are bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction, Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them. They die in youth, And their life ends among the perverted persons. (NKJV, Job 36:8-14)

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Sorry friend but it's obvious you do not know Calvinism.

I will admit to not knowing a person's interpretation of Calvinism. A lot depends if they themselves know what type of Calvinist they are and admit to it.

1)Total hyper-Calvinism.
2)Partial hyper-Calvinism.
3)Ultra-High Calvinism.
4)Regular High Calvinism.
5)Moderate Calvinism.
6)Lower Moderate Calvinism (may pre-date the confessions)
7)Lower Calvinism.
8)Lowest Calvinism.
9)Amyraldism (4 point Calvinism)

Maybe I even fit in this list somewhere. The great thing about Calvinists is their belief that they are saved by Grace alone so they should be the most peaceful, happy, loving people in the world.

 

[Carbon]

I will admit to not knowing a person's interpretation of Calvinism. A lot depends if they themselves know what type of Calvinist they are and admit to it.

1)Total hyper-Calvinism.
2)Partial hyper-Calvinism.
3)Ultra-High Calvinism.
4)Regular High Calvinism.
5)Moderate Calvinism.
6)Lower Moderate Calvinism (may pre-date the confessions)
7)Lower Calvinism.
8)Lowest Calvinism.
9)Amyraldism (4 point Calvinism)

I know many have an interpretation. And thats okay.

But I still believe you do not know Calvinism. A list like that proves nothing at all. I'm always willing to discuss it if you would like.

Maybe I even fit in this list somewhere.

Yea maybe.

The great thing about Calvinists is their belief that they are saved by Grace alone

Well, thanks for not being rude about it. I am sure you have heard that and probably read it, but could you explain the details of saved by grace?

so they should be the most peaceful, happy, loving people in the world.

Being a Calvinist does not make us nonhuman. We still carry the old man and suffer as scripture says we do. But yes, we are supposed to love the brethren and our enemies.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I know many have an interpretation. And thats okay.

But I still believe you do not know Calvinism. A list like that proves nothing at all. I'm always willing to discuss it if you would like.

Sure, which version?

I believe that God not only knows the end from the beginning but He is the end and the beginning. We all fulfill God's purpose whether we are saved or not and yet we have free will, but no matter what we choose it will serve God's will and purpose. God went to the cross to have a people who of their own free will taste and see that He is good. He brought light to the world and shed it abroad on all men. God, of course, knew who would soften under that light and who would harden so ultimately God did come and die through Christ for the elect, but He still made it to rain on the just and the unjust.

I used to work on a mission compound and grew corn there for the hospital. We would hill up the soil and in each hill, we would plant 4 corn kernels. After they sprouted we'd inspect each hill and pluck out the ones that were yellow or dwarfed so that the healthy ones could flourish. We planted and gave all the same chance but we did all the work for those plants that thrived.

Our salvation is not happening in a vacuum, the angles are looking into it. The entirety of God's creation is learning about the Love of God through this. To enlighten only certain people while denying any chance to others would not be love.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Well, thanks for not being rude about it. I am sure you have heard that and probably read it, but could you explain the details of saved by grace?

We were dead without sin without hope or even the means to hear and understand God's voice when God raised us up and quickened us and took all our sins upon him and gave us his righteousness that we should stand before God as if we had never sinned. Why should we not be ecstatic?

Like Ezekiel recorded in chapter 16: 6 Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, “Live!” 7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew and developed and entered puberty. Your breasts had formed and your hair had grown, yet you were stark naked.

8 “‘Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your naked body. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign Lord, and you became mine.

 

[Mr GLee]

No, that is not clear. That position is solely a function of your personal, doctrinally biased, interpretation of the text. Not only is that position solely a function of personal interpretation but as I stated in the previous post, it leaves out all the contexts inherent in the passage.

This is very important, and critically so. Our doctrine(s) of salvation explains how a person - ALL persons - go from being dead and enslaved to sin to being saved from that deadly and enslaving sin and the death that comes commensurate with that sin. That doctrine must apply to everyone. Any doctrine of salvation that applies only to the saints, or only to those already living in a covenant relationship with God, or who already believes in God's existence is incomplete, at best. At worse it is totally misguided and lacking any veracity.

Take, for example, an analogy of you and I building an engine to put in a pickup. You and I take an engine block and put in the crank shaft, cam shaft, push rods, pistons, rings, bearings, and all the other components of the short block but we do not put on the heads, manifold or other remaining components. We pop that into the engine well, close the hood, step back, and take some pictures. Form the outside the truck looks complete but it's not. The truck is incomplete and does not work because it is incomplete.

Incomplete is not always wrong, but it is never whole.

EVERYTHING I have ever read from you has ALWAYS been incomplete. Sadly, this op is nt the only one. Most of the threads in this Arm v Cal board written by Arms are incomplete. They use scriptures written about Jews coming to Christ or they misuse scriptures written about those already saved and apply them to people not yet saved. Using scriptures about people who already believe in God does absolutely NOTHING to explain what happens to those who do not believe in God. It definitely does nothing to those hostiley adversarial to anything and everything pertaining to any belief in God and sin. They do not explain how anyone who does not believe any god exists comes to believe in the God they do not believe exists.

Do you understand the problem?

You have to find the verses that are about the atheist!

Those verses specifically about the atheist are the only verses applicable to an atheist conversion! There are very few of them in the Bible. I have read many of your ops. I do not respond to most because I've tried to communicate this problem many times before and have yet to be effective. The title's mention of "second attempt" caught my attention because it implies the first attempt was either incorrect or ineffective and maybe something has been learned since the first attempt. Sadly, I find covenant scriptures are still being used to explain how godless, God-denying, covenant-less people are saved. Scriptures about believers and covenant members are used and the verses that apply to atheists neglected.

Once it is realized the vast, overwhelming amount of scripture is written to and about people who already believe in God it will also be realized very little is said about the atheist. Once that is realized, it will also be realized the entire Bible, with very few exceptions, is written about a very large but very specific group of people - and they are not atheists!!! When we read the story of Noah we receive a lot of information about Noah, but very little about all the millions of people living on the planet with him. With the exception of the opening statements in Genesis 6 the entire story ignores them! None of them get saved! Not only do none of them get saved, but there's not a single word about any of them doing what the Job 36 text describes. Not one word about it. Do NOT assume Job 36 applies. Similar dynamics exist in every story in the Bible. Even the people who built the tower of Babel believed in some kind of god. The entire account of Abram/Abraham covers more than a century of human history, but it is a story of Abraham and not all the other people who lived on the planet. The record of Abraham is explicitly about a God-initiated covenant and although there were millions of people living on the planet at the time, the story is not about them. The parts of Abraham's history that do include others shows they all believed in some god or God. There are no atheists in that story. Once this overarching context is realized you'll also realize a lot of teaching on salvation misuses scripture.

These contexts cannot be left out when reading scripture.

Every op I have ever read you post always leaves those facts out. I have not read all the ops, but the ones I have read are incomplete, and woefully so. Job and his friends believed in God, the God of the Bible. The Job 36 passage explicitly specifies to whom God does what, and not a single one of them is ever said to be atheistic.

Huge hole in this op's soteriology.

The righteous do not need saving. Jesus did not come to call the righteous.

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.

You're making the exact same mistake made by the Pharisees and scribes. When scriptures are talking about the righteous, or the saints, those verses should not be applied to the unrighteous. Doing so creates a false equivalence (apples to oranges). The righteous and the unrighteous are two completely different types of people.

• All humans are sinful.
• Not all humans are theists.
• Not all theists are Christians.

It is both scripturally and logically fallacious to assume godless atheists and regenerate saints are comparable. They are not. It is also equally erroneous to compare godless atheistic non-believers with convent Israel who live by faith. It's not even fair to say it's an apples to oranges comparison. A more accurate analogy would be something like comparing a rotting corpse to a fruit-bearing branch!

Irrelevant.

A scriptural sound position whereby the matter of destiny can be correctly measured has to first be reached and this exchange has not yet reached that point. An exegesis that ignores the inherent contexts of the scriptures used is never going to be able to correctly decide the matter of destiny.

Nice move of the goal posts.

We were not discussing the matter of destinies. We were talking about the premise Job 36 and the other passages cited provide evidence of two pathways. They do not. Job 36 is about people who already believe in God and the people who obey and serve are said to be those in whom God has already acted. In the case of Job 36, they had their ears opened. They are God-believing people already who had their ears opened - and opened for the purpose of obeying and serving God. That is not two pathways. That's one.



You must find those verses that apply to atheists and use them to develop and prove how they are saved because people who deny God's existence are categorically different than those who believe God exists.


Psalm 14:1-4
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Do all the workers of wickedness not know, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord?

Any complete doctrine of salvation that is scripturally sound MUST start there, not Job 36. Read those four verses a couple of times and think about what they say.

Good place to start.

Remember the demons as lying spirits believe .

Is atheism as the fool. . a religion?

Can believer's do foolish things ?

What does it mean anything not of faith is sin? Anything not of whose faith ? Dying mankind or our living God?

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: (not of one's own self) for whatsoever is not of faith (not of one's own self) is sin.

Who is it that works in you to both reveal His will and empower you to finish it to his glory. Dying mankind?

Philippians 2: 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[Josheb]

You still refuse...

And you are still attacking me. Please stop.

Do you acknowledge that?

I acknowledge what is stated in the text of Job 36:8-13. The problem is not on my side of this conversation. It's the op that is incorrect. Note every time we trade posts a new verse is added without ever addressing what's already been posted. It's one more move of the goalposts.

I'll go through the Job 36 passage line by line.

You still refuse to acknowledge that regardless of whether it is talking about the righteous,

It is not talking about the righteous because no one is righteous!

Humanity's lack of righteousness plainly stated in Psalm 14:1, Psalm 143:2, Romans 3:10, and 1 John 1:8. If Job 36:7-13 is read to say it is about righteous people, then that is done so in direct contradiction with other scripture. Job is then read in contradiction to David, Paul, and John. Scripture NEVER contradicts itself.

It does matter whether or not the text is talking about the righteous.

He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But they are on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted. (NKJV, Job 36:7)

God does not draw His eyes away from the righteous. No one is righteous - except one person. Jesus. The only person in the entire Bible who is righteous is Jesus. The ONLY person in the entire Bible that part of the passage could refer to is Jesus. God does not withdraw His eyes from His Son.

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

Romans 16:10
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

The verse is messianic. It is soteriological, but not in the way described in this op. It's also eschatological: who is seated on the throne with kings?

Revelation 3:21
He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

It is not a coincidence that John would reference Job. Nowhere in the entire Bible does the Bible ever predicate overcoming on the will of the sinful unregenerate flesh but there are many verses that lay the cause of that victory on God.

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

All ANYONE who disagrees has to do to prove otherwise is simply provide a verse that explicitly attributes that victory to the unregenerate sinner's fleshly will. I'm am NOT giving you doctrine. LOOK AT THOSE VERSES! They state exactly what they state.

or both the righteous and the sinner:

All have sinned and fall short of God's glory and there is no one who is righteous but Jesus.

 

[Josheb]

Part 1:

But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them. (NKJV, Job 36:13)

I see the post jumped from verse 7 to verse 13, AGAIN, using scripture selectively instead of reading it exactly as written in is entirety measured by scripture as a whole so I am going to do what should have done when Job 36 was first mentioned, and go by it verse by verse.

Job 36:8
And if they are bound in fetters, and are caught in the cords of affliction,

To what fetters could Elihu possibly be referring? To what "cords of affliction" could he be referencing. If this passage is going to be treated soteriologically - which is what you have chosen to do, then there is only one possible answer: sin and death. Who is it that is bound by sin and death? EVERYONE, except those God saves from sin and death. Those who are fettered by sin and death cannot save themselves. God alone saves. Do I need to list all the many scriptures stating this? If so, then just ask because I will gladly post them.

The "if" is rhetorical. The "if" would ordinarily indicate a condition but since ALL have sinned and ALL fall short of God's glory and the wages of sin for ALL is death there is no one who is not fettered or caught in cords of afflict but Jesus, the one who was made sin that we might be saved. He alone is righteous, and he alone is the righteous one that was fettered on our behalf and caught, mired in affliction for our sake. It pleased his Father to crush him.

Isaiah 53:10
But the LORD was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief; if he would render himself as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring, he will prolong his days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

The verse is Christological, not psychological.

On to the next verse.

Job 36:9
Then He declares to them their work and their transgressions, that they have magnified themselves.

When does God declare to a person his or her work and his or her transgression? When does God do that to reveal "they have magnified themselves"? The first answer is He does so throughout scripture. Scripture is filled with passages describing humanity's transgressions and how humanity in its sinfulness magnifies itself. The irony here in this discussion is that Eliphaz had stated this very thing earlier in the book of Job (chapter 15) but because five verses were eisegetically ripped from their context that's nowhere to be found in your argument. The second answer is the judgment occurs in the end at the last day.

Job 15:20, 24-25
The wicked man writhes in pain all his days, and numbered are the years stored up for the ruthless.... Distress and anguish terrify him, they overpower him like a king ready for the attack, because he has stretched out his hand against God And conducts himself arrogantly against the Almighty.

If the whole of Job is read, then the "fettered" and those "caught in affliction" is identified for the reader of Job.

Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Romans 2:14-16
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 9:27-28
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Every single human ever born will die. We all die and then face judgment. Every single humans has sinned and fallen short of God's glory and every sinful human has glorified, magnified himself, falling short of God's glory. Jesus did not glorify himself (John 8:54). Most importantly, the soteriological and eschatological action in verse 9 is not the unregenerate sinful human's action. It is God who is doing the declaring. The only human act stated in the verse is self-magnification.

On to the next verse.

 

[Josheb]

Part 2:

Job 36:10
He opens their ear to instruction, and commands that they return from evil.

I've already addressed this verse in a previous post (which has remained unattended since it was posted, btw). The verse states God opens their ears. Whose ears is that are opened? The people who are fettered and caught in affliction, those whose works and transgressions are declared, those who magnify themselves. God opening their ears implies 1) their ears were not opened beforehand - otherwise God would not need to open their ears for them, or 2) they have not, did not, and will not opened their own ears - possibly that they cannot do so. What does other scripture say about this? Well, as it turns out, there is only one verse in the entire Old Testament that specifically speaks to ears being opened.

Isaiah 42:18-20
Hear, you deaf! And look, you blind, that you may see. Who is blind but My servant, or so deaf as My messenger whom I send? Who is so blind as he that is at peace with Me, or so blind as the servant of the LORD? You have seen many things, but you do not observe them; Your ears are open, but none hears.

This is commentary on something Isaiah had said several chapters earlier,

Isaiah 6:8-10
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."

And this text is used in every gospel, Acts and Romans. Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul ALL used this prophecy to speak to the inability of humanity to hear and understand without God opening their ears AND giving understanding. As Elihu in the book of Job puts it, God opens the ears of the self-magnifying fettered transgressor and commands they return from evil. God is the one doing the soteriological action, not the unregenerate sinner. Verses 9 and 10 are monergistic. That's not a doctrinal statement; that is the fact of those two verses.
On to the next verse.

Job 36:11
If they hear and serve Him, they will end their days in prosperity and their years in pleasures.

This is the verse upon which the op pins its case entire case because the conditional "if" is emphasized as a psychological "if," an "if" that is dependent upon the faculties of the will of unregenerate's sinful flesh. The problem with that interpretation is that it ignores what has previously been stated in the text AND what is stated about one's ability to hear and serve, as well as what all the rest of scripture states bout that ability without the indwelling Spirit. The ones who have had their ears opened are commanded to return from evil and if they obey and serve their days will prosper in years of pleasure.

What if their ears were not opened?

They get nothing.

Those whose ears God does not open do not get commanded to leave evil. The "if" of verse 11 does not apply to them. Let's assume, for the sake of this discuss, God does open the ears of everyone. Anything and everything soteriologically related that follows is necessarily still dependent on God opening ears. There's no commanding to leave evil absent the ear opening. There is no "if" absent the ear opening. There is no hearing or serving absent the ear opening. EVERYTHING that follows is predicated on the monergistic ear opening.

We might infer the hearing and serving is done on the part of the still unregenerate sinful flesh's will and action but what merit is that soteriologically? Can a still unclean self-magnifying person fettered in their transgressions do anything meriting salvation? Not according to Isaiah.

Isaiah 6:9
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, and our wrongdoings, like the wind, take us away.

Remember: Job himself has already argued there is no arbiter between God and man! You'd know that if you'd read Job chapter 9. In Job's ignorance he thinks a man must stand or fall by his own works alone AND he's already stated God pays that no mind.

Perhaps more importantly, however, whether one obeys God and serves him and ends his days in prosperity or not the end is the same! Of those who obey and serve Job says,

Job 21:13
They spend their days in prosperity and go down to Sheol in peace.

It's the exact same outcome as any other sinner.

Job 24:19
Dryness and heat snatch away the snow waters, as Sheol snatches those who have sinned.

Both end up in the grave. There are not two pathways, and if they are they both end up in the same place, according to Job.

Even more important than that is the fact salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:5-10) and NOT by works, so even if the one whose ears are opened does obey and serve God s/he cannot work his way to salvation.

On to the next verse.

Job 36:12
But if they do not hear, they shall perish by the sword and they will die without knowledge.

Since I've already covered this verse I'll keep this short. Not only do those whose ears are not opened perish, but so too do those whose ears are opened and do not obey perish. The monergistic declaring, ear opening, and commanding is not sufficient for salvation from sin and death. Notice verse 12 leaves out the obeying. It predicates everything on the hearing. God can open a person's ears and they still not hear! As I have already covered a person can also hear and not understand. Knowledge, understanding, and wisdom come from God (Pr. 2:6 and many, many other verses. The things of the Spirit are foolishness to the natural man, and he cannot receive or understand them (1 Cor. 2:14). Anyone who argues ear opening is enough ends up contradicting a plethora of other scriptures.

But the fact still remains it does not matter whether the ear-opened self-magnifying transgressor hears (and serves) or not because his destination is the exact same place as the one who does not hear, obey, and/or serve: Sheol! The only difference is the obedient servant goes to the grave in peace and the unhearing self-magnifier goes to the grave without knowledge. They both end up in Sheol without an arbiter.

Last verse. I'll even include a few extras.

Job 36:13-15
But the godless in heart lay up anger; they do not cry for help when He binds them. They die in youth, and their life perishes among the cult prostitutes. He delivers the afflicted in their affliction and opens their ear in time of oppression.

Is the reason I brought up the atheist now understood? None of what has been previously stated in Job 36:8-12 applies to the godless!!!!!

The soteriology asserted in this op is incomplete. Notice verse 15 puts deliverance BEFORE the ear opening. To whom is the deliverance attributed? God! Are there any faculties of the unregenerate sinner's flesh mentioned anywhere in the Job 36:8-13 text? No! The obeying and serving is unattributed. Of the items that are attributed - the declaring, the ear opening, the commanding, and the delivering - ALL of them are attributed solely and exclusively to God and God alone. Soteriologically speaking, there is nothing synergistically stated in the passage.

Explicit mentions of God did it = 4
Explicit mentions of the unregenerate sinner's flesh did it = 0


Now I am going to ask you the exact same question I was asked,

Do you acknowledge that?

Do you acknowledge the facts of scripture as posted above? I did not post a single doctrinal interpretation. I posted scripture and I posted scripture read exactly as written using scriptures directly related to the Job 36 text you chose.

Do you acknowledge the facts of scripture?

 

[Josheb]

Job was a righteous man...

NO! Job was blameless and upright, not righteous. Check the Hebrew. Job was tam and yashar, not tsadekq. BIG difference. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory and no one is righteous, not even Job. Job was a sinful sinner.

Do you acknowledge this?

 

[jeremiah1five]

What is shown clearly, is there are two choices that the same person can make, that determine their destiny:

Job 36:11 If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures.

and

Job 36:12 But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

So even if that only happens to the righteous, it still shows there are two pathways, not one. No one is fixing destinies.

Since this prophecy is to a people in covenant and whose destiny is already saved, their obedience will either bring blessing (prosperity and pleasure), or a saved destiny bringing curse, and one of those curses can be by sword or by worm, in which there is no prosperity and pleasure.
There is only one destiny to a saved person, and two ways of life and living.

Here is another choice God gives to His saved, covenant people:

1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
5 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
Dt 28:1–6.

Notice that obedience to God does not equate with salvation but blessing in life.

Or

15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
Dt 28:15–20.

And if a saved person in covenant disobeys God thoroughly and if it is His plan for your life, He can remove you out of the world, still saved, but taken out of His plan.

The children of Israel were in covenant with God and a saved people. Now, the question is will one be obedient and eat the fat of the land, or disobedient and their well go dry.

8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
Ex 24:7–8.

 

[jeremiah1five]

More of 100% Hittite and 100% Amorite The mixture of two families creates a new one. Abram .. . Father of a family.


When two or three gather together under the authority of sola scriptura. Christ is there working in dying mankind.

Sorry to disappoint but correction is necessary.

The Hittites were members of an ancient Indo-European people who appeared in Anatolia at the beginning of and by 1340 B.C., according to archaeological discoveries.

What you've done is misunderstand what God was saying in this passage:

2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
Ezek. 16:2–3.

the prophet Ezekiel is delivering a message calling out the sins of the city of Jerusalem, and by extension the nation of which it was the capital—the Kingdom of Judah. As is often the case in prophetic literature, the capital city is personified as an adulterous woman (for compare Revelation 17–18). In this particular case, Jerusalem is described as an orphaned daughter of an Amorite and a Hittite, cast out and left for dead.
This is not a literal description of Abraham's birth from whom his seed, the children of Israel are born.

Hebrew history and tradition as well as archeological discoveries place Abraham's birth around 1960s B.C.
He was a child of the sixties, man. Peace and love.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Job was a righteous man who was put to the test by Satan. Because he was a man in whom God delighted.

I think you should accept @Josheb ('s) response #74.
The text does not use the word defined as "righteous", but another word is used.
Job was more devout in his relation towards God. He prayed and offered sacrifices daily for himself and his family. If God saw Job as "righteous" I believe the word for "righteous" would be in the description.
It is not.

 

[Mr GLee]

The Hittites were members of an ancient Indo-European people who appeared in Anatolia at the beginning of and by 1340 B.C., according to archaeological discoveries.

Nothing to do with archaeological empiricism.

God is simply not a Jewish man (dying mankind) The first century reformation came over two thousand years ago. Sola scriptura continues to do the work of restoring the government of God called "faith" the unseen eternal things of God not after the temportol dying flesh of mankind oral traditons of Rabbi.

Whenever God changes a name it's a continuation of building up the second born to be the first and the first last .
It included both Saria meaning (palace or temple the living temple) of God not made with the dying hands of some of the Jews (non converted )

After her born again conversion like with Jacob she as a new born again name was called a princes as Jacob a prince .

God our Holy Father not seen the eternal King of earthly kings and Lord of earthly lords renamed Abraham. His new born again name .The Holy Father of earthly fathers all the nations as families or whenever two or three gather together under the the power of his name as it is written (sola scriptura) the flaming two edged sword Eternal God.he is there teaching comforting, and bringing to our memories the previous things he has taught (John 14).


Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: (God's name as sons of God ) for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

The same with Abram (father of one nation or family) as born again Abraham (the Holy Father of all the nations of the world) The Christian nation the nation of al the nations of the whole world The new name the Father promised to name the bride of all the nations in Isaiah 62

Every word of God has meaning assigned by the author. with a commandment or warning not to add new meaning to one word or substract. spiritual plagiarism.

Both having the same father Terah (“old fool” and “wild goat,”) Sarai's mother "Hagar" (“flight” or “forsaken.”)

Genesis 15: 18-12 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram,(father of one nation) saying, Unto thy seed (one Christ not seen) have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites,(the strike or hunt) and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites,(Canaan before its conquest by the Israelites.) and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

All of the gentile kingdoms of men today belong to our one Holy Father, called Eternal Abraham.

I would offer do not even think to not think about what God lovingly infromed us to "think not". Calling drying mankind our Holy Father in heaven we are informed out of lively stones all the nation she His bride gave glory to one Holy Father

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.. . (Not seen the spiritual house)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Nothing to do with archaeological empiricism.

God is simply not a Jewish man (dying mankind) The first century reformation came over two thousand years ago. Sola scriptura continues to do the work of restoring the government of God called "faith" the unseen eternal things of God not after the temportol dying flesh of mankind oral traditons of Rabbi.

Whenever God changes a name it's a continuation of building up the second born to be the first and the first last .
It included both Saria meaning (palace or temple the living temple) of God not made with the dying hands of some of the Jews (non converted )

After her born again conversion like with Jacob she as a new born again name was called a princes as Jacob a prince .

God our Holy Father not seen the eternal King of earthly kings and Lord of earthly lords renamed Abraham. His new born again name .The Holy Father of earthly fathers all the nations as families or whenever two or three gather together under the the power of his name as it is written (sola scriptura) the flaming two edged sword Eternal God.he is there teaching comforting, and bringing to our memories the previous things he has taught (John 14).


Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: (God's name as sons of God ) for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

The same with Abram (father of one nation or family) as born again Abraham (the Holy Father of all the nations of the world) The Christian nation the nation of al the nations of the whole world The new name the Father promised to name the bride of all the nations in Isaiah 62

Every word of God has meaning assigned by the author. with a commandment or warning not to add new meaning to one word or substract. spiritual plagiarism.

Both having the same father Terah (“old fool” and “wild goat,”) Sarai's mother "Hagar" (“flight” or “forsaken.”)

Genesis 15: 18-12 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram,(father of one nation) saying, Unto thy seed (one Christ not seen) have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites,(the strike or hunt) and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites,(Canaan before its conquest by the Israelites.) and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

All of the gentile kingdoms of men today belong to our one Holy Father, called Eternal Abraham.

I would offer do not even think to not think about what God lovingly infromed us to "think not". Calling drying mankind our Holy Father in heaven we are informed out of lively stones all the nation she His bride gave glory to one Holy Father

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.. . (Not seen the spiritual house)

It has a lot to do with archeological discoveries. The history of cultures, people, places, relics, etc., are buried in the dirt and the reason why some educated people dig up those things is for personal experience and education and for enlightenment of the world's knowledge of things not readily know or obscured.

And Jesus was a Jewish man being born from the tribe of Judah from which His birth descends. And that's correct, He did have a body of "dying flesh" but He died because He volunteered His death to His Father and for His people which are the Hebrews.

That may be YOUR mindset, but God to me is EVERYTHING and more. He is King of all kings and since there are no other kings in eternity which is His realm, what's left are kings of the earth, and He is King over all of them.

Neither you nor I have Abraham as our father because we don't descend from his loins and seed. Just as you descend from your earthly father it is quite impossible and incorrect for you to say you're descendant from Joe Blow of Minneapolis as you were not born to that man, ecxept maybe Joe Camel.

 

[Mr GLee]

It has a lot to do with archeological discoveries. The history of cultures, people, places, relics, etc., are buried in the dirt and the reason why some educated people dig up those things is for personal experience and education and for enlightenment of the world's knowledge of things not readily know or obscured.

It has everything to do with archeological discoveries Nothing to do with with theology the hearing of God's understanding called faith to represent the unseen eternal we do not know God after the wisdom of dying mankind after the corrupted dying rudiments .He cannot be found under microscope or above with a telescope Yoked with Christ our daily burden can be lighter.

(Bold ) dead
(RED) life

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ

Interesting but studying dirt digging up dead bones not my cup of tea

Beware brother .