A walk through Ephesians 1 - 2 ?

[TMSO]

Not that I agree with @GLee , but when Jesus did miracles he did not do them by his own power, but by the power of "his God".

Actually it was by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the Logos become flesh. God incarnate. God dwelling among His creation as one of His creation. (It's complicated.) While on Earth, Jesus having been sent by the Father, and the message Jesus presented were all validated by miracles performed through the power of the Holy Spirit, and His miracles not being blocked by the Father for breaking the Sabbath. (For instance). Everything Jesus did was for validation of His message, and who He is. He forgave a man's sin. The religious leaders said that only God could forgive sins. Jesus said that to show that the Son also has the power to forgive sins, Jesus healed the paralytic. Even the religious leaders knew that if Jesus had blasphemed, there is no way Jesus could have healed the paralytic. God would have denied Him.

If this is all it takes for you to become a unitarian, perhaps you always were a unitarian.

(I can't get the @whoever to pop up the name to click on. Strange.)

 

[Mr GLee]

Not that I agree with @GLee , but when Jesus did miracles he did not do them by his own power, but by the power of "his God".

(I can't get the @whoever to pop up the name to click on. Strange.)

Jesus had no power living in a body of death. (earthen vessels)

2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Satan has no power of his own to spreads his lies through "false prophets". . ' false apostles. ..called antichrists.

Peter is used what not to do in Mathew Perter seduced by the father of lies rebuked eternal God forbidding Jesus to do the work of our Holy Father not seen. Showing Satan at work with all power to deceive. Peter or any human with false prophecy (lying sings to wonder after when, where, who ?

Almighty God even calls the false power. . power. We must be on guard against Satan's deceiving wiles. And not underestimate the god of this world power to lie.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Jesus again and again warns of the evil generation (non-redeemed) sign seekers. They are not trusting prophecy God's eternal living word.

They have no faith coming from true prophecy as it is written.

Jesus said to Nicodemus who did seek after thing wonders before he would believe a God not seen According the greatest miracle "a man must be born again " the loving commandment is to marvel not. Marveling is wondering . . not believing as an anchor to our new born again soul .

They tried to make Jesus into a circus seal. Saying, perform a wonder, create a miracle then when we see with our own eyes, we will believe
The pagan foundation . . Out of sight out of mind, as in. . who believes in an imaginary God net seen?

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

We walk or understand God not seen by his labor of love called a work of His faith.

 

[Mr GLee]

The power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the power of the Holy Father.

 

[atpollard]

Yes, the power of the Holy Father.

Luke 3:22 ... One God in 3 Persons [all "Present and Accounted For"].

Luke 3:21-22 [NASB]
Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came from heaven: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well pleased."

 

[makesends]

The power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes. Agreed.

I avoided saying so, but only said, "by the power of his God", because of an unresolved disagreement with (apparently) several of my dearest friends on this site, a disagreement that is not necessary to discuss in this thread.

 

[makesends]

Actually it was by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the Logos become flesh. God incarnate. God dwelling among His creation as one of His creation. (It's complicated.) While on Earth, Jesus having been sent by the Father, and the message Jesus presented were all validated by miracles performed through the power of the Holy Spirit, and His miracles not being blocked by the Father for breaking the Sabbath. (For instance). Everything Jesus did was for validation of His message, and who He is. He forgave a man's sin. The religious leaders said that only God could forgive sins. Jesus said that to show that the Son also has the power to forgive sins, Jesus healed the paralytic. Even the religious leaders knew that if Jesus had blasphemed, there is no way Jesus could have healed the paralytic. God would have denied Him.

If this is all it takes for you to become a unitarian, perhaps you always were a unitarian.

I don't say otherwise. The Holy Spirit is God. No need to use foul language ("Unitarian")

 

[Mr GLee]

Luke 3:22 ... One God in 3 Persons [all "Present and Accounted For"].

Luke 3:21-22 [NASB]
Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came from heaven: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well pleased."

One invisible eternal God made known by one temporal earthy person .

Two is the witness God spoke not three, three is a crowd

 

[makesends]

One invisible eternal God made known by one temporal earthy person .

Two is the witness God spoke not three, three is a crowd

Are you just being funny, or do you honestly think the principle, "three is a crowd", is a valid measure of doctrine?

 

[atpollard]

Are you just being funny, or do you honestly think the principle, "three is a crowd", is a valid measure of doctrine?

99% sure that it was a joke ... and reasonably funny at that [for contra-orthodox doctrine humor].

 

[Mr GLee]

Are you just being funny, or do you honestly think the principle, "three is a crowd", is a valid measure of doctrine?

A little of both.

The beginning of the three day and night demonstration promised in Genesis 3:15 with Isaiah 53 ,The father striking the Son bruising his heel crushing the head off the serpent .The Son of man sufferings began in the garden of Gethsemane. The Father and Son of man, Jesus .The promise was limited to two. Three times Jesus awoke the three apostles looking for help.Three times the Father put them to sleep.

The next part of the demostiation the hill the crowd of Satan inspired of mankind, giving the illusion it was of the crowd and not he promised demonstration of Genesis 3:15 mixed with Isaiah 53. In that way a lying wonder as sign to the unbelieving word .

Then they moved to the last part, the tomb, the demonstration of faith (the unseen ) Then the Father removed the grave clothes and rolled back the stone finishing the demonstration

 

[TMSO]

Jesus had no power living in a body of death. (earthen vessels)

2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

That is Paul writing about us, not about Jesus. If Jesus was a man, you face this wall: "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Jesus is different. Jesus is John 1.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Satan has no power of his own to spreads his lies through "false prophets". . ' false apostles. ..called antichrists.

So which one of these "false prophets", "false apostels" these antichrists tempted Jesus in the wilderness?

Peter is used what not to do in Mathew Perter seduced by the father of lies rebuked eternal God forbidding Jesus to do the work of our Holy Father not seen. Showing Satan at work with all power to deceive. Peter or any human with false prophecy (lying sings to wonder after when, where, who ?

Jesus looking at Peter and saying, "Get behind Me Satan" doesn't sound like seduction. What did Jesus tell Peter about that night. Satan (not one of his false prophets or apostles) has requested to sift Peter's faith like wheat. Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not falter.

Almighty God even calls the false power. . power. We must be on guard against Satan's deceiving wiles. And not underestimate the god of this world power to lie.

Satan has power, however he can't simply use it as he wishes. Remember, Satan actually goes to war with heaven.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Lying wonders do not mean that there is no power. Things are being done, however, God uses wonders to validate his messengers, where Satan uses wonders to lie to people. God sends a strong delusion so that those who perish believe the lies that Satan is presenting.

Jesus again and again warns of the evil generation (non-redeemed) sign seekers. They are not trusting prophecy God's eternal living word.

They have no faith coming from true prophecy as it is written.

Jesus said to Nicodemus who did seek after thing wonders before he would believe a God not seen According the greatest miracle "a man must be born again " the loving commandment is to marvel not. Marveling is wondering . . not believing as an anchor to our new born again soul .

Nicodemus became a believers. Jesus words, not his miracles, changed Him. If I used Paul then it is where Paul said that God has ordained through the foolishness of preaching that men come to know Him. Not by signs and wonders. Nothing flashy. The foolishness of preaching.

They tried to make Jesus into a circus seal. Saying, perform a wonder, create a miracle then when we see with our own eyes, we will believe
The pagan foundation . . Out of sight out of mind, as in. . who believes in an imaginary God net seen?

They did, and some of it was because they wanted to discredit and destroy Jesus.

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

We walk or understand God not seen by his labor of love called a work of His faith.

That is not correct. We walk by faith which is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things we cannot see. Jesus told his disciples with Tom, blessed are those who without seeing, believe. (Thomas denied Jesus' resurrection because Thomas did not "see" it. He proclaimed that until he touches the nail prints and puts his hand in his side, he would not believe. Jesus showed up, and did Thomas ask for these things? No. But Jesus said, blessed are those who believe without seeing. We believe because God has saved us.

 

[makesends]

A little of both.

The beginning of the three day and night demonstration promised in Genesis 3:15 with Isaiah 53 ,The father striking the Son bruising his heel crushing the head off the serpent .The Son of man sufferings began in the garden of Gethsemane. The Father and Son of man, Jesus .The promise was limited to two. Three times Jesus awoke the three apostles looking for help.Three times the Father put them to sleep.

The next part of the demostiation the hill the crowd of Satan inspired of mankind, giving the illusion it was of the crowd and not he promised demonstration of Genesis 3:15 mixed with Isaiah 53. In that way a lying wonder as sign to the unbelieving word .

Then they moved to the last part, the tomb, the demonstration of faith (the unseen ) Then the Father removed the grave clothes and rolled back the stone finishing the demonstration

Sorry. I don't see how that means the Holy Spirit is not also itself God, and a person of the three.

 

[TMSO]

Sorry. I don't see how that means the Holy Spirit is not also itself God, and a person of the three.

He seems to be unitarian. He doesn't believe Jesus is God, but is only a prophet.

 

[Manfred]

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I can see and understand from both perspectives, especially verse 1.

How?

Did God look down the corridors of time and found Paul and checked to see if Paul would choose Him...
Was Paul actively searching for truth, although he thought he had truth as an Israelite...
Did Paul have understanding to believe Jesus Christ was Lord and savior prior to the revelation he received.

If by the will of God, how could it ever be by free will choice before revelation...

I could see anyone, in this case Paul being apostles by God's will. I mean of course it's by God's will. Jesus showed this on the road to Damascus.

God's will includes those saints Paul refers to. Are they noy saints because of God's will...

Of course, neither the reformed nor Synergist has any proof here for their perspective.

I don't agree. I see God's sovereignty at work here. Paul was on his way to have every Christian he could come across killed. He was not working synergistically with God up to the point of the revelation received.
It was because of God alone.

 

[atpollard]

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

I can see and understand from both perspectives, especially verse 1.

How?

Did God look down the corridors of time and found Paul and checked to see if Paul would choose Him...
Was Paul actively searching for truth, although he thought he had truth as an Israelite...
Did Paul have understanding to believe Jesus Christ was Lord and savior prior to the revelation he received.

If by the will of God, how could it ever be by free will choice before revelation...

@Manfred ... You ask "How?" [can verse 1 be seen from both perspectives]

Like THIS:

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, [Calvinistic sovereign will]
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: [Arminian human choice]

• An Arminian would say that God INVITED and Paul ACCEPTED in verse 1 (based on the stronger example from the "saints who are in Ephasus" or John 3:16 or Joshua 24:15).
• A Calvinist would say that the faithful saints are faithful BECAUSE of God (based on something like Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[makesends]

@Manfred ... You ask "How?" [can verse 1 be seen from both perspectives]

Like THIS:

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, [Calvinistic sovereign will]
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: [Arminian human choice]

• An Arminian would say that God INVITED and Paul ACCEPTED in verse 1 (based on the stronger example from the "saints who are in Ephasus" or John 3:16 or Joshua 24:15).
• A Calvinist would say that the faithful saints are faithful BECAUSE of God (based on something like Ephesians 2:8-9).

I'm not sure what I'm reading here. How does any choice made by man agree with Arminian free will? Even post regeneration, the only good is the work of God (whether considered monergistic or synergistic at the point) in us. It is GOD who works in us both to will and to do, and that, according to HIS good pleasure —not ours.

 

[atpollard]

I'm not sure what I'm reading here. How does any choice made by man agree with Arminian free will? Even post regeneration, the only good is the work of God (whether considered monergistic or synergistic at the point) in us. It is GOD who works in us both to will and to do, and that, according to HIS good pleasure —not ours.

That is the Calvinist perspective [and my Particular Baptist Perspective as well ... I think Ephesians 1 and 2 are very clear about what God does and what WE bring to the salvation - our sin.]

However, the Arminian [Wesleyan Holiness/Free Will] P.O.V. starts from the assumption that SOMETHING (power of the gospel, prevenient grace, semi-Pelagianism ... whatever) overcomes "Total Depravity" and empowers man with a morally neutral choice [like Adam had in the Garden, to believe Eve/Satan or God].

Just like "Trinity" (the word) does not appear in Scripture, so too, "Total Depravity" (the phrase) does not appear in Scripture. It is not something that is a "given", it must be teased out as a "doctrine". THEY (Arminians / Wesleyans / Free Willies) do not accept that doctrine as truth. Thus they are not BOUND by the inescapable conclusions that flow from it.

 

[atpollard]

How does any choice made by man agree with Arminian free will?

Shorter answer ... For an Arminian, ANY choice is PROOF that man has the power of choice [evidence of Libertine Free Will].

 

[Manfred]

@Manfred ... You ask "How?" [can verse 1 be seen from both perspectives]

Like THIS:

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, [Calvinistic sovereign will]
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: [Arminian human choice]

• An Arminian would say that God INVITED and Paul ACCEPTED in verse 1 (based on the stronger example from the "saints who are in Ephasus" or John 3:16 or Joshua 24:15).

Thanks for the reply.
You would agree that this view postulates Paul could have chosen to not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, thereby thwarting the will of God. The sovereignty of the free will.
I cannot understand how Arminians can think this way.

• A Calvinist would say that the faithful saints are faithful BECAUSE of God (based on something like Ephesians 2:8-9).

To say that one is/remains faithful because you have to actively choose to believe is an oxymoron in my opinion.
If you meet someone on a personal level, you can never choose to not have met that person. Without the power of God intervening, I personally would have stuck with my sin. Without Him working in me both to will and to work for His good pleasure, I would become nothing but legalistic in my efforts to gain/remain in His favor.

I do however now see (thanks for the clarification) how there is a case for both Arminian and Calvinist thinking.

 

[atpollard]

Thanks for the reply.
You would agree that this view postulates Paul could have chosen to not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, thereby thwarting the will of God. The sovereignty of the free will.
I cannot understand how Arminians can think this way.

I agree completely.

Even the most LEGALISTIC Pharisee (like Saul) was at least trying - hard and badly, but trying ... I had long prior taken my seat among the SCOFFERS and placed my feet on the table. So when Christ met me on my "Road to Damascus" it came as far more of a surprise and left no room for any illusion of MERIT. Four truths came from that day:

• People are no darn good.
• God does not ASK, God just DOES.
• Whatever reason God chooses us, it is NOT because we deserve it.
• God finishes what God starts.

It turns out that someone called that the "Doctrines of Grace" long before I was born.