The powerless Arminian Jesus

[Mercy_Shown]

1. No it doesn't. The discussion is not does God predestine or ordain everything. It is, does He ordain some to come to Christ because He chose them before the foundation of the world and predestine them to come to Christ in faith or does He predestine them to come to Christ because He saw/learned that they would?

Ok, if you wish to narrow the scope so be it, but you are the one who brought up God ordaining, intending and foreknowing.

2.It is not part and parcel of the discussion of that passage, but is a whole other issue to be dealt with in the proper place instead of becoming a rabbit hole, that never gets the specific question at hand answered.

You opened the door because you brought it up. But if you want to narrow it now, so be it.

3. It is not inescapable---it is simply what you want to do. As I have said---start a thread on it---Does God ordain all things and if so did He ordain your scenario of the little girl and the stepfather?

You opened this can of worms, not I.

4. That is why it is ignored goes to the operation of my mind---telling me my reasons instead of asking what they are. And it so happens that you are wrong and I have no intention of now discussing my reasons as that would be off topic.

You started something you could not finish. Ok, so lets move on.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Of topic. Argumentative only. About the poster not the post.

{edit. Trolling}

 

[Mercy_Shown]

An incoherent statement charging ones of being incoherent. Off topic. Argumentative. Aimed at poster not post.

{edit. Trolling}

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Off topic. And needs to be worded in a way that makes sense.

{edit. Trolling}

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I did not say you didn't address the scripture or posts. I said you never applied the OT quotes on who God is to them. And it should be "false" not "faults."

Are you done chattering your teeth and stomping your feet? You have been way off-topic, slinging ad hominem like hash.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

"And those He foreknew, He also predestined, and those He predestined, He also called, and those He called, He also justified, and those He justified, He also glorified"

Of course, He did. Because He knew who would submit to him ahead of time. When people refuse to submit and ignore His appeal to them nothing else can be done. He did not ordain that these should be the only ones saved, but being in all time, He knew that they would not respond.

Of course, though "picked out" in regards to God is a bit dismissive. But who are the ones who come to Him? How do they get to Him? Does God predestine them to come to Him because He chose them before our world was created (foreknew) Eph 1:3-6 or because He knew beforehand that they would come to Him? Did He choose the destination or did He choose the persons? Keeping in mind:
Is 40:13-14 Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel" Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?
Is 46b-10 I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient time things not yet done, saying "My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose---"

Is 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so shall it be and as I have purposed so shall it stand

Yes, anything God plans or purpose stands. And free-will was and is His purpose. Allowing the results of the exercise of that free will either for good or for evil is His purpose so that all may see what sin is and what it does so that they will never freely choose it again.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Beforehand prior to creating creation, not beforehand to after creating creation.

That is not the definition of foreknowledge. It is the application of foreknowledge in this case but I understand what you are meaning.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

And as usual, you go out of your way to miss the point @Arial was making. Try to deal honestly with us. You will get a lot more respect.

You have the gall to question my honesty and expect me to desire your respect. You are breaking up the wrong tree. I do not desire respect from disrespectful individuals.

 

[Arial]

And free-will was and is His purpose.

Where does He say that? I have read the Bible through countless times and have never even seen so much as a suggestion that He did that. Those scriptures in Is. certainly don't say that.

 

[Arial]

Ok, if you wish to narrow the scope so be it, but you are the one who brought up God ordaining, intending and foreknowing.

You opened the door because you brought it up. But if you want to narrow it now, so be it.

You opened this can of worms, not I.

You started something you could not finish. Ok, so lets move on.

Do you feel better now that you got that off your chest?

 

[Josheb]

God knows who will be saved from the foundation of the Earth. It is not who he will save it who will respond to his salvation.

No, it's not.

He knew those who would respond to his salvation.

Yes, He did.

He chooses the ones who respond to him. To those who receive him.

No, He does not. God does not make Himself dependent on sinners. That is BAD Theology. Understand what I just said. It is bad soteriology, but it is also worse than bad soteriology. It is bad Theology. God saves whoever He wants to save and He does not make His decisions based on the flesh of the sinner.

He draws all men.

Yep. Monergism.

"If I am lifted up, I will draw all men onto me."

Yep. Monergism.

Before the cross, the Father drew men to Christ, men that were to establish His church.

Yep. Monergism.

Christ lifted up on the cross now draws all men to him.

Yep. Monergism. Some are drawn to the cross in salvation and some (all the rest) are drawn in judgment. The exact same cross that saves also condemnation.

Some resist but not everyone.

Irrelevant. God is almighty, and sovereignly so. A human cannot overthrow God, not even for a fraction of a second. Resistance is futile . It is also irrelevant. God saves who He wants to save and He knows who He is going to save before He created a single person He would save.

Before the Cross God gave men to Jesus to help establish His church.

Yep. Monergism.

Now Christ offers directly, come onto me all you who are heavy laden.

Yep.

And yes He knew that He would give to Christ all who would receive Him

Yep. He knew it monergistically. God's knowledge is not dependent on humans, nor is it dependent on the future.

Yes, all who will submit.

Got scripture for that?

Before you answer..... make sure the verse you're about to quote was written about the not-saved. Do not waste my time or yours quoting a verse from the epistolary that was written to already regenerate and saved believers about already regenerate and saved believers. If you do that I will say scripture is being abused and add that to the already growing list of faulty arguments you've employed. Take the time necessary to get it right on the first attempt. And when you don't find a verse stating God knew who He would save because He knew who would submit then just say so. Be honest and forthcoming, immediate and direct.

I'll take either answer and work with you, so make the effort to get it correct in the next post.

Omniscience

Only if God made them submit monergistically. If the human's submission is not decided by God prior to creation, then He does not know it. In other words, if the decision is the human's and it occurs ONLY at some point in creation, some point in time, some point in history AFTER creation was created then God does not know. It is not omniscience, and He is not omniscient (or omnipotent). If the matter hasn't been decided by the human then it hasn't been decided by God, either. If it hasn't been decided by God then He doesn't know it. What God knows beforehand must happen. If it does not happen then either He did not know it, or His knowledge was wrong. Both are problems Theologically. If He knows it prior to creating creation than the submission of the human is irrelevant. That humans is going to submit or not submit based on that foreknowledge, based on what God already knows, based on what God knows beforehand.

And to save us both time, just in case the thought or impulse is to say, "He looks down the timeline....." that too compromises His omniscience because if He has to look then He does not know until He does so, and that means prior to His looking He did not know. That is not omniscience.


Show me the scripture stating God's foreknowledge of who He saves is based on His knowing who would submit beforehand.

Then explain how that does not make the Infinite Almighty Righteous Creator dependent on the flesh of the finite sinful man.

 

[Josheb]

That is not the definition of foreknowledge. It is the application of foreknowledge in this case but I understand what you are meaning.

That might not be your definition, but it is the necessary definition because if God does not know something prior to creating creation then He's not omniscient and if He has to wait and see, or look down the timeline, then, again, He is not omniscient.

If that is understood, then make sure your posts are consistent with that necessity.