John 6:44-45

[makesends]

We may be talking past each other, true. But as you may have noticed I deny the existence of libertarian free will.

I deny it too, in its several forms, particularly when it claims the ability to choose, uncaused. THAT makes no sense to me. (If God is God, then everything else is caused).

I deny the existence of neutrality.

Likewise, and wholeheartedly. (Even the supposedly inanimate things are not neutral, but good.)

So what most call "free will" I call delusion. And if push comes to shove I would say three things:

Firstly that we choose what we desire. Always.
Secondly that Gods will is bigger than ours.
Lastly that God never misses.

AMEN ! I love that last one!

 

[Carbon]

What?..............................................View attachment 279

@preacher4truth I see what you mean about cats.

 

[fastfredy0]

What?..............................................View attachment 279

Ooops... forgot a word.....

Try again...
RE: But ALWAYS, God has chosen, and so we choose.

Response:
Like robots.

..... or, if we are the first cause of God's choosing then God, for the purposes of our adoption/salvation, God is our robot.

 

[makesends]

John 12:32 (VW) And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.

I believe that this means all kinds of people (not only Jews - c.f. Rev. 5:9); however, it could also mean "all the elect". There is no modifier for "all", in the Greek.

To take the example of a crowd: you can only be said to have drawn a crowd, if a crowd actually comes. You could attempt to draw a crowd, but fail; however, you could not then truthfully claim to have drawn a crowd.

There may well be more than one sense to us, that in the mindset of the Jew of the day might have seemed like one. (Most of us would do well to have to get along with a different culture for a few years to see how differently people can think.) It is more than possible that Christ could also have included in the use of language there, that "IF there is to anyone drawn, (in his particular meaning of drawing —to himself), is it ONLY by Christ". (Kind of a play on words could be going on there.)

 

[Carbon]

Ooops... forgot a word.....

Try again...
RE: But ALWAYS, God has chosen, and so we choose.

Response:
Like robots.

..... or, if we are the first cause of God's choosing then God, for the purposes of our adoption/salvation, God is our robot.

 

[makesends]

Which is free will as we see it operate in the Bible, right?

Yes, but it is not the "libertarian free will" we all 3 reject, that is without cause or control by God.

 

[Carbon]

View attachment 280

Okay, no that I got that out of my system..............

 

[makesends]

Ooops... forgot a word.....

Try again...
RE: But ALWAYS, God has chosen, and so we choose.

Response:
Like robots.

..... or, if we are the first cause of God's choosing then God, for the purposes of our adoption/salvation, God is our robot.

Yeah, but do robots go around with a smile on their face, and joy in their heart?

Though, come to think of it, wasn't there a depressed robot —I think his name was Marvin— in Douglas Adams', Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

 

[Carbon]

Yeah, but do robots go around with a smile on their face, and joy in their heart?

Though, come to think of it, wasn't there a depressed robot —I think his name was Marvin— in Douglas Adams', Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

 

[fastfredy0]

Yeah, but do robots go around with a smile on their face, and joy in their heart?

Depends on the robots programming.

Though, come to think of it, wasn't there a depressed robot —I think his name was Marvin— in Douglas Adams', Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

Hmmm, only robot I can think of was the one on Lost in Space in the 60s.
Hmmm, maybe with AI robots can have emotions.

 

[fastfredy0]

Great minds think alike?
.... or is it small minds think alike? .... let's go with GREAT

 

[Eleanor]

Great minds think alike?
.... or is it small minds think alike? .... let's go with GREAT

Maybe it's just gooey things run together.

 

[fastfredy0]

Maybe it's just gooey things run together.

Gooey (sticky and viscous) things run? I would think they walk at best.
View attachment 282

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

God's calling is the same for all in one way. Grace!

Grace enables us and places us in a position to make a choice for what God wants.
But grace does not make us make the choice God wants.

The Bible disagrees with you. Needless to say so do I.

Peace out.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

No, I'm in agreement with you, I think. I'm just being picky about particulars. I don't think you disagree that we do choose, sometimes.

I disagree with "free will". The regenerate man will "choose" God. There is no other "choice" that he desires.

For example, when God regenerates us, subsequently, we choose (as a result of what God has done). But ALWAYS, God has chosen, and so we choose. One day after I'm dead and gone to heaven and stopped procrastinating, I'll write a book on it: "We Do So Because It Is So"

I look forward to reading it. I suspect you will have no time to write it as you'll be having too much fun.

One of my favorite 'bad news' verses is from Revelation 22: "11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”

This has everything to do with the fact that ONLY GOD can do "new".

Well...everyone will understand that perfectly "When the Man Comes Around".

 

[GeneZ]

The Bible disagrees with you. Needless to say so do I.

Peace out.

Thank you Theodore Beza.

Pray tell.. When did you change your name to "The Bible?

Is it a stage name?

Theodore "The Bible" Beza, has a nice ring to it.

 

[makesends]

I disagree with "free will". The regenerate man will "choose" God. There is no other "choice" that he desires.

I disagree with "free will" too, in the usual meaning most people use. The regenerate man will indeed choose God. But not always choose to obey.

 

[civic]

I disagree with "free will" too, in the usual meaning most people use. The regenerate man will indeed choose God. But not always choose to obey.

The disciples were not regenerate when Jesus called them and they followed Him. They chose to follow Jesus and give up everything.

 

[David1701]

There may well be more than one sense to us, that in the mindset of the Jew of the day might have seemed like one. (Most of us would do well to have to get along with a different culture for a few years to see how differently people can think.) It is more than possible that Christ could also have included in the use of language there, that "IF there is to anyone drawn, (in his particular meaning of drawing —to himself), is it ONLY by Christ". (Kind of a play on words could be going on there.)

The "if" is only applied to the being lifted up from the Earth (i.e. his death on the Cross); it's not that there was any doubt about it, just that it shows what follows, in the case of him dying on the Cross.

 

[David1701]

The disciples were not regenerate when Jesus called them and they followed Him. They chose to follow Jesus and give up everything.

Where does the Bible say that they were not regenerate when Jesus called them?