John 6:44-45

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Again... Romans 1:18-21 reveals that God initiates drawing all men.

Uh huh...There is such a thing as natural revelation and special revelation. It might be helpful to you if some time is spent looking into these two very different things.

Nature And Scripture

 

[makesends]

judas was just the same as the others both chosen by Christ and drawn by Him. He was one of the 12 disciples. Don't let your doctrine dictate or contradict those facts.

Drawn in the same way? Drawn to the same purpose and to the same end? Drawn with the same intention?

 

[makesends]

Judas was the only one prophesied to betray Jesus. That was his purpose. That is what he was drawn for. That is what was fulfilled.

Were the other 11 prophesied? Was the number of Apostles mentioned somewhere in the OT? As far as I remember no...not particularly. But Judas had no more choice in his calling then the other 11. Or Paul for that matter. That is for certain.

Meaning none of them had any choice in their calling? I'm not sure what that means. They certainly did choose, though their choice is not the pivotal point of God's use for them.

 

[GeneZ]

Uh huh...There is such a thing as natural revelation and special revelation. It might be helpful to you if some time is spent looking into these two very different things.

Nature And Scripture

God is omniscient!

Therefore, He planted truth to be found about Himself as to make His drawing even possible.

How else could one be drawn to God if man is not first drawn into God consciousnesses?

The drawing of God is not a one phase operation of grace. Its a process that will keep advancing until a soul reaches the finish line.
When that line is crossed, then the Father hands that soul over to Jesus. That soul is then 'given' to Jesus!

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, ​

and I will raise them up at the last day." John 6:44​

The question is? What involves God's drawing process?

Is it some irresistible mindless magnetic pulling to Christ?
No.. the process requires being exposed to Biblical truths during the process and THINKING positively.

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who ​

has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me." John 6:45​

​

I believer hyper Calvinism's TULIP's Irresistible grace concept stemmed from a lack of patience along with a strong desire to be sure about something before God was willing to provide the needed insight to understand it. Which took place while working out their salvation in fear and trembling with someone craving to become sure and unmovable. "Irresistible grace!" That settles it!

Happens all the time in other areas of life as well when men are not willing to tolerate uncertainly of what seems hopelessly ambiguous.

In Christ (in spite of my self) grace and peace ....................

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Meaning none of them had any choice in their calling? I'm not sure what that means. They certainly did choose, though their choice is not the pivotal point of God's use for them.

Show, scripturally, where they "certainly did choose" or perhaps where they considered refusing to follow Jesus.

Heck...let's take a look at Matthew.

Matthew 9:
9 And as Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax office; and He said to him, “Follow Me!” And he stood up and followed Him.

Hmmm...A Jewish tax collector in the middle of his business. Hated by all. VERY wealthy from the look of it so very corrupt. A man walks up...looks like a Jewish Rabbi. A group that Matthew has undoubtably come under a bit of abuse from in his work. Says "Follow Me" and he, Matthew, does.

Leaves the money on the table.
Doesn't say a word.
No mention of "consideration".
No mention of agonizing over choice.

He got up and followed.

The very picture of the "effectual call". I think, perhaps, you need to rethink this choice thing.

 

[GeneZ]

Uh huh...There is such a thing as natural revelation and special revelation. It might be helpful to you if some time is spent looking into these two very different things.

Nature And Scripture

That link was not helpful.

In your own words? What did you mean by natural revelation vs 'special" revelation?

Romans 1:18-20 states that God has made it plain to man via creation.

What appears to man in the created realm the Holy Spirit uses just like the Spirit would use a tract handed to someone. Does that tract speak?

 

[GeneZ]

Show, scripturally, where they "certainly did choose" or perhaps where they considered refusing to follow Jesus.

Heck...let's take a look at Matthew.

Matthew 9:
9 And as Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax office; and He said to him, “Follow Me!” And he stood up and followed Him.

Hmmm...A Jewish tax collector in the middle of his business. Hated by all. VERY wealthy from the look of it so very corrupt. A man walks up...looks like a Jewish Rabbi. A group that Matthew has undoubtably come under a bit of abuse from in his work. Says "Follow Me" and he, Matthew, does.

Leaves the money on the table.
Doesn't say a word.
No mention of "consideration".
No mention of agonizing over choice.

He got up and followed.

The very picture of the "effectual call". I think, perhaps, you need to rethink this choice thing.

Matthew God had made prepared for that moment.

It was not like I Dream of Jeannie where Jesus crosses his arms and blinks to have Matthew to follow him.

 

[makesends]

God is omniscient!

Therefore, He planted truth to be found about Himself as to make His drawing even possible.

How else could one be drawn to God if man is not first drawn into God consciousnesses?

The drawing of God is not a one phase operation of grace. Its a process that will keep advancing until a soul reaches the finish line.
When that line is crossed, then the Father hands that soul over to Jesus. That soul is then 'given' to Jesus!

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, ​

and I will raise them up at the last day." John 6:44​

The question is? What involves God's drawing process?

Is it some irresistible mindless magnetic pulling to Christ?
No.. the process requires being exposed to Biblical truths during the process and THINKING positively.

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who ​

has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me." John 6:45​

​

I believer hyper Calvinism's TULIP's Irresistible grace concept stemmed from a lack of patience along with a strong desire to be sure about something before God was willing to provide the needed insight to understand it. Which took place while working out their salvation in fear and trembling with someone craving to become sure and unmovable. "Irresistible grace!" That settles it!

Happens all the time in other areas of life as well when men are not willing to tolerate uncertainly of what seems hopelessly ambiguous.

In Christ (in spite of my self) grace and peace ....................

Kind of like the notion that the command implies the ability to obey, and free will —self-determinism

 

[makesends]

Show, scripturally, where they "certainly did choose" or perhaps where they considered refusing to follow Jesus.

Heck...let's take a look at Matthew.

Matthew 9:
9 And as Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax office; and He said to him, “Follow Me!” And he stood up and followed Him.

Hmmm...A Jewish tax collector in the middle of his business. Hated by all. VERY wealthy from the look of it so very corrupt. A man walks up...looks like a Jewish Rabbi. A group that Matthew has undoubtably come under a bit of abuse from in his work. Says "Follow Me" and he, Matthew, does.

Leaves the money on the table.
Doesn't say a word.
No mention of "consideration".
No mention of agonizing over choice.

He got up and followed.

The very picture of the "effectual call". I think, perhaps, you need to rethink this choice thing.

You and I are talking about two different things. I'm not saying they chose to follow Jesus —at least initially— though they certainly choose subsequently.

Which, by the way, brings up another subject.... OT regeneration.

 

[David1701]

Is "called" the same thing?

What is John 12:32 referring to? What does it mean? Who are the "all people"? What does "draw" mean here?

NIV: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
LSB: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Not opposing you here, btw. Just asking for proof that only the Elect are drawn. I agree that certainly, only the Elect are drawn salvifically. But I'm not at all sure that every mention of God drawing (or similar words) someone means, salvifically.

John 12:32 (VW) And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.

I believe that this means all kinds of people (not only Jews - c.f. Rev. 5:9); however, it could also mean "all the elect". There is no modifier for "all", in the Greek.

To take the example of a crowd: you can only be said to have drawn a crowd, if a crowd actually comes. You could attempt to draw a crowd, but fail; however, you could not then truthfully claim to have drawn a crowd.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Matthew God had made prepared for that moment.

It was not like I Dream of Jeannie where Jesus crosses his arms and blinks to have Matthew to follow him.

And you believe that any other human being is different in the ways and means of God's calling? Ephesians would differ with you.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

You and I are talking about two different things. I'm not saying they chose to follow Jesus —at least initially— though they certainly choose subsequently.

Which, by the way, brings up another subject.... OT regeneration.

We may be talking past each other, true. But as you may have noticed I deny the existence of libertarian free will. I deny the existence of neutrality. So what most call "free will" I call delusion. And if push comes to shove I would say three things:

Firstly that we choose what we desire. Always.
Secondly that Gods will is bigger than ours.
Lastly that God never misses.

 

[GeneZ]

Kind of like the notion that the command implies the ability to obey, and free will —self-determinism

You keep throwing around the term "free will" as if its inherent with men?

For without God's power of grace taking command over one's sin nature? No soul could experience freedom of will.

Grace controlling over our flesh makes our soul free to exercise our will concerning the things presented by God.
That does not mean we will choose positively for what God wants.
It simply means we were made free to do so if we so desired.
Man is still free to reject what grace has provided and made apparent to him.

That is why it says..

"So they are without excuse."

Romans 1:20c

 

[GeneZ]

And you believe that any other human being is different in the ways and means of God's calling? Ephesians would differ with you.

God's calling is the same for all in one way. Grace!

Grace enables us and places us in a position to make a choice for what God wants.
But grace does not make us make the choice God wants.

If that were not the case? We would not find all the false doctrines and divisiveness we have today within the body of Christ.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

Yes... part of your flesh that had not yet been transformed finds TULIP to your liking. It allows you to be in certain ways your old self while feeling justified. The misapplication of Scripture can be quite subtle and tricky when its designed to appeal to certain personality types.

I'm sure there are doctrines out there designed to appeal to my own natural bent in thinking as well.
Probably being suckered without knowing it....

I have been corrected a good many times along the way. Its an essential part of God's process of bringing a Christian to maturity.

If God wants us to mature? And, He does. Its His responsibility to raise up a few good teachers in each given generation. (James 3:1)

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

In Christ ..................

 

[Eleanor]

We may be talking past each other, true. But as you may have noticed I deny the existence of libertarian free will. I deny the existence of neutrality. So what most call "free will" I call delusion. And if push comes to shove I would say three things:

Firstly that we choose what we desire. Always.

Which is free will as we see it operate in the Bible, right?

Secondly that Gods will is bigger than ours.
Lastly that God never misses.

 

[GeneZ]

Firstly that we choose what we desire. Always.
Secondly that Gods will is bigger than ours.
Lastly that God never misses.

Its ignorance of truth that will cause us to not choose for God's will.
Ignorance leaves us to our own devices.

Gather around our self enough like minded souls? And we might create an illusion for ourselves
of being comfortable and justified with what we prefer to believe. Its a part of the depravity of man.

​

There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death." Proverbs 14:12​

​

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "​

As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts ​

than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8​

​

​

I think I should add. Someone being hard nosed in itself does not automatically bother me.

grace and peace .....................

 

[makesends]

Show, scripturally, where they "certainly did choose" or perhaps where they considered refusing to follow Jesus.

Heck...let's take a look at Matthew.

Matthew 9:
9 And as Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax office; and He said to him, “Follow Me!” And he stood up and followed Him.

Hmmm...A Jewish tax collector in the middle of his business. Hated by all. VERY wealthy from the look of it so very corrupt. A man walks up...looks like a Jewish Rabbi. A group that Matthew has undoubtably come under a bit of abuse from in his work. Says "Follow Me" and he, Matthew, does.

Leaves the money on the table.
Doesn't say a word.
No mention of "consideration".
No mention of agonizing over choice.

He got up and followed.

The very picture of the "effectual call". I think, perhaps, you need to rethink this choice thing.

No, I'm in agreement with you, I think. I'm just being picky about particulars. I don't think you disagree that we do choose, sometimes.

For example, when God regenerates us, subsequently, we choose (as a result of what God has done). But ALWAYS, God has chosen, and so we choose. One day after I'm dead and gone to heaven and stopped procrastinating, I'll write a book on it: "We Do So Because It Is So"

One of my favorite 'bad news' verses is from Revelation 22: "11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”

This has everything to do with the fact that ONLY GOD can do "new".

 

[makesends]

You keep throwing around the term "free will" as if its inherent with men?

For without God's power of grace taking command over one's sin nature? No soul could experience freedom of will.

Thank you! Well put!

Grace controlling over our flesh makes our soul free to exercise our will concerning the things presented by God.
That does not mean we will choose positively for what God wants.
It simply means we were made free to do so if we so desired.

True that!

Man is still free to reject what grace has provided and made apparent to him.

Not all graces. We had no ability to reject our first birth. Nor can we reject being born-again. If it is, it is.

That is why it says..

"So they are without excuse."

Romans 1:20c

I was mocking the self-determinism of Arminianism.

 

[fastfredy0]

But ALWAYS, God has chosen, and so we choose.

Like robots.

..... or, if we are the first cause of God's choosing then God, for the purposes of our adoption/salvation, God is our robot.

 

[Carbon]

Like robots.

..... or, if we are the first cause of God's choosing then God, for the purposes of our adoption/salvation, is our robot.

What?..............................................