John 6:44-45

[David1701]

Revelation is not regeneration . You are conflating them . If that’s your reasoning then the demons are regenerate since they knew He is the Son of God their creator .

The demons didn't have to have it revealed to them. They knew who Jesus was naturally.

 

[David1701]

Wayne Grudem, in his Sytematic Theology, in the chapter on regeneration states, “This sovereign work of God in regeneration was also PREDICTED in the prophecy of Ezekiel. Through him God promised A TIME IN THE FUTURE when He would give new spiritual life to his people” (Grudem, page 699). These texts say, “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period!

Regeneration, the new birth , born again did not occur until Pentecost as Jesus promised in the gospels and Acts 1.

hope this helps !!!

Or...it could mean that, at some time in the future (relative to the prophecy in Ezekiel 36), Israel, as a whole, would be regenerate, as contrasted with only a remnant of them, as was the case in the OT, and as is the case nowadays.

 

[GeneZ]

Wayne Grudem, in his Sytematic Theology, in the chapter on regeneration states, “This sovereign work of God in regeneration was also PREDICTED in the prophecy of Ezekiel. Through him God promised A TIME IN THE FUTURE when He would give new spiritual life to his people” (Grudem, page 699). These texts say, “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period!

Regeneration, the new birth , born again did not occur until Pentecost as Jesus promised in the gospels and Acts 1.

hope this helps !!!

A NEW spiritual life! Keyword is? NEW.

The OT believers had a spiritual life. Not one like our own though.
We have been given a spiritual life that is above and beyond what they had!

Matter of fact, the OT prophets longed for our day.

"For you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.​

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to ​

come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out ​

the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing ​

when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would ​

follow." 1 Peter 1:9-11​

Now Civic?

You are telling me that those OT prophets were not regenerated???!!!!
That only since Pentecost people have been born again?????

Note! It says..

"the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you.." ​

It does not say.

​

"The regeneration that was to come to you! "​

It says.... the GRACE that we now receive, that they did not!
Grace is God's enabling of the believer!


That is why... it says we have become s 'new spiritual species' in Christ!

We are the new spiritual species! They were the old spiritual species!

Read please..........
https://www.jerrysavelle.org/you-are-a-new-creation-2/


..............

 

[GeneZ]

Unregenerate = the following.

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. ​

For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because ​

they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14​

OT saints definitely understood and believed in certain prophecies.
If they were without a human spirit? Such truths would have been foolish to them as well.

The words "natural man" in the Greek means - "soulish man." One who is only body and soul.

 

[GeneZ]

When Adam and Eve died spiritually?

They did not lose the Holy Spirit. It was not given at that time.

They lost their human spirit.

They needed "regeneration."

 

[makesends]

Why not say who it was?

Too lazy. Saul. And it seems like one of the pagan kings but I can't think who.

 

[Carbon]

Right on! Amen!

 

[GeneZ]

Too lazy. Saul. And it seems like one of the pagan kings but I can't think who.

Saul was anointed by God to be King. Saul was the people's choice. Saul became negative and God disciplined him.

David was God's choice. David replaced Saul.

I still can not grasp anything that says Saul was not regenerate. A bad believer, yes. Not regenerate? No.

I think some here simply lack and understanding as to what regeneration always means,
and have assumed it only applies to the Church age baptism of the Spirit.

 

[makesends]

Saul was anointed by God to be King. Saul was the people's choice. Saul became negative and God disciplined him.

David was God's choice. David replaced Saul.

I still can not grasp anything that says Saul was not regenerate. A bad believer, yes. Not regenerate? No.

I think some here simply lack and understanding as to what regeneration always means,
and have assumed it only applies to the Church age baptism of the Spirit.

I don't see any reason to think Saul was born again.

As for your last remark, I'm not sure what you are getting at, because it sounds like something I actually agree with you about.

 

[GeneZ]

I don't see any reason to think Saul was born again.

As for your last remark, I'm not sure what you are getting at, because it sounds like something I actually agree with you about.

Before the church age? No one was born again?

 

[GeneZ]

Did Jesus tell Nicodemus that to know who He really is? That Nicodemus needed to be born again?
Or, did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he must wait (Pentecost) to be born again to know?

When all the while, John the Baptist already knew who Jesus was, and never lived to see Pentecost...

 

[makesends]

Before the church age? No one was born again?

Funny to me how often something someone says to them means one thing and to me means something else. For example, the freewiller says "choice", which I heartily agree with. But to them it means that God does not predestine (or decree) what we will choose.

There has only ever been one Gospel, one way to Heaven, one Lord and God; and since Adam, all (except Jesus Christ) were fallen sinful human flesh, who have only ever been helpless to get out of their dilemma. Only one regeneration, (and that, by the Spirit of God), and only one salvation, (and that by the substitution of Christ in our place). It has ALWAYS been true, that one must be born again, in order to be saved from their sin and from its end.

 

[Wordsmith]

All who are drawn will be saved, and all the saved will be raised. All of this is Soli Deo Gloria.

I disagree!


John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

All who are drawn (convicted) are not guaranteed to accept and believe. Anyone, if drawn can choose the come to the Father but nothing in this passage says they all will.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Heard and "learned" of the Father, those have heard and accepted in faith believing will be saved, nothing here say all who hear will believe.


John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Doesn't say whoever is called. Called first believe or not that is the choice.

Numerous scriptures says those that believe will be saved, no scripture guarantees all called will believe.

 

[fastfredy0]

I don't see any reason to think Saul was born again.

Well, speaking as Saul's lawyer; he can't come right now; he's at a barbecue ... I'd like to present the fact that Saul is numbered among the elect. Not the elect like you and I, but the elect being the nation of Israel. Amos 3:2 “Only you [Israel] have I known from all the families of the earth. This definitely enhances his chances relative to non-Israelites. Therefore, given this evidence I believe there is sufficient reasonable doubt; thus my client should be found to be 'born again' by the jury.
Unfortunately, the Judge is God and He often overrules the juries pronouncement and He picked the 'winners' and 'losers' before the foundation of the earth.

 

[GeneZ]

Funny to me how often something someone says to them means one thing and to me means something else. For example, the freewiller says "choice", which I heartily agree with. But to them it means that God does not predestine (or decree) what we will choose.

He predestined what we will choose about. Not how we will chose.

For example: Moses could not be the Bride of Christ.

Why could Moses not be?

Because God predestined Moses to choose to make his choice to believe in Him during the age of Israel. Not the church age.


God chose us before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4. Right?

It also says... How were we chosen. IN HIM.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."​

Where was Eve's body before she was revealed?
Sher was IN ADAM"S body.

Likewise... We are the Bride of Christ. We are now hid in Him in heavenly places!

"Even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Eph 2:5-6

We are now hidden In His BODY! Awaiting to be revealed in the resurrection with a body just like His own glorious body!!

who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."

Its not really complicated.

It only remains complicated while we do not have enough doctrine to think with.

grace and peace ...................

 

[GeneZ]

I disagree!


John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

All who are drawn (convicted) are not guaranteed to accept and believe. Anyone, if drawn can choose the come to the Father but nothing in this passage says they all will.

Jesus said that because all the Jews were trying to be saved by works.
He had to let them know how the process of salvation takes place.

In Romans 1:18-22 men were being drawn by God and flat out rejected His drawing them, even in the early stage of God consciousness.

 

[GeneZ]

Funny to me how often something someone says to them means one thing and to me means something else. For example, the freewiller says "choice", which I heartily agree with. But to them it means that God does not predestine (or decree) what we will choose.

There has only ever been one Gospel, one way to Heaven, one Lord and God; and since Adam, all (except Jesus Christ) were fallen sinful human flesh, who have only ever been helpless to get out of their dilemma. Only one regeneration, (and that, by the Spirit of God), and only one salvation, (and that by the substitution of Christ in our place). It has ALWAYS been true, that one must be born again, in order to be saved from their sin and from its end.

OT saints did not know the name "Jesus Christ." They believed in Adonoy Eloheinu.
They believed simply in the Lord God of Israel for salvation as it was known to them.

The Church age is the calling out of His Royal Priesthood! His Bride!
That is why God predestined those who He chose in Him before foundation of the earth to be born during the Church age to believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[GeneZ]

The text in John 6:35-44 is a series of an unbroken promise to the elect. They will be drawn, saved, raised. Why? We have a perfect salvation and a Perfect Savior.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but
raise them up at the last day." John 6:35-44


For those who come to Him? The Father had already drawn to the point of His approval.

That Father only gives the Son those whom the Father sees have passed the testing for approval.

That is why it says the following:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands
condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one
and only Son." John 3:18

While the Father was drawing some will reject the Father. The Father therefore condemns them for their thinking.
Because of that.. they never reach the point of the Father giving them to the Son.

Therefore they were condemned already before their rejection of Christ.
Their lack of belief in the Son is only symptomatic of their previous condemnation by the Father.

"but whoever does not believe stands condemned already ."

Those who the Father gives to the Son will automatically come to Jesus, because Jesus is the embodiment of the one who drew them into the point for approval!

The resistance of the drawing takes place prior to being presented the Gospel. Those who resist were already condemned before being presented the Gospel!

"but whoever does not believe stands condemned already ."

He was condemned even before his rejection of Christ. He is not condemned for his rejection of Jesus. But, for the rejection of the Father drawing him!

There you have it. Grace and all....

 

[Wordsmith]

Yeah, well, Scripture disagrees with you, so...

Not a problem. Then you should be able to point me to the scriptures that say what you claim without having to make assumptions.

 

[GeneZ]

Utter nonsense, that's showing God as a respector of persons and is merited election, merited grace, and merited salvation.

No, that's non sequitir.

More nonsense. Jesus' promise to the elect is that all drawn are saved and will be raised.

Non sequitir.

No, sorry.

No, not really, you're teaching salvation by merit and cannot see it. Your message here isn't Biblical grace at all.

If what you said is true? ..........

Why not the Father simply skip the drawing process and just hand that person to the Son?

Since, Calvinists claim no one can resist...

No.. each one must be drawn before the transfer takes place.

Its during the drawing that what is in one's soul is revealed.

God is fair and just. God would be unjust since all of us are born enemies of God, only to have God leave some to be, and no drawing attempt being made. On what basis could they be condemned since all are the same enemy of God before the drawing?

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live ​

when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, ​

the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. Ephesians 2:1-2​

Since we were all born that way? It would be unfair if God could force us to get saved, and leave them be to be condemned.
He should have forced all to believe, if in fact, God's grace is truly irresistible.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, ​

but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that ​

all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9​

God in His sovereignty uses the power of His grace to give everyone the chance to come to repentance.
After all? Its His desire that all do!

And, Calvinists say He does not give all an equal chance to come to repentance. He sovereignly chooses not to?

Scripture disagrees with your thinking.

For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, ​

how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Romans 5:10​

The drawing process if the act of God breaking down man's natural resistance and God implanting thoughts as to draw a man closer while drawing that person.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up ​

at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ ​

Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." John 6:44-45​

Its a teaching process during the drawing! Not some irresistible dragging them to the slaughter.

Competitiveness and resentment aside. I pray some benefit from this truth and see that God makes sense.


In Christ, GeneZ