John 6:44-45

[GeneZ]

No, not really, you're teaching salvation by merit and cannot see it. Your message here isn't Biblical grace at all.

Scriptures say you are wrong.

 

[GeneZ]

Utter nonsense, that's showing God as a respector of persons and is merited election, merited grace, and merited salvation.

I said....

That Father only gives the Son those whom the Father sees have passed the testing for approval.

What is the purpose of God's grace?

To bring us by His power to a state of transformation that God approves of.

The purpose of God's grace is to make us become able to become something, that before grace was given,
we were utterly helpless and hopeless to do. To do what God sees as righteousness.

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, ​

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s ​

power may rest on me." 2 Corinthians 12:8-9​

Ironically... grace takes the undeserving, and if His grace has its way with the one in need?
The result will end up being a transformed life that will then end up meriting God's favor.

God's grace works in a believer to get that believer to a place where God will be free to bless him.

By God's grace I learned that. The Scriptures agree with me.

For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, ​

because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, ​

and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than ​

they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me (1 Corinthians 15:9-10).​

grace and peace ............

 

[GeneZ]

Cool, thanks!

Warm thanks in return...

 

[makesends]

I disagree!


John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

All who are drawn (convicted) are not guaranteed to accept and believe. Anyone, if drawn can choose the come to the Father but nothing in this passage says they all will.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Heard and "learned" of the Father, those have heard and accepted in faith believing will be saved, nothing here say all who hear will believe.


John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Doesn't say whoever is called. Called first believe or not that is the choice.

Numerous scriptures says those that believe will be saved, no scripture guarantees all called will believe.

You are right in that the verse does not say that all those that are drawn will be saved. The verse only says that nobody can come to him (and we can safely infer, "be saved") unless they were (are) drawn, and Christ will raise up, the last day, those that come to him.

But you do take logical excursions, such as to imply that 'drawn' means 'convicted'.

 

[makesends]

Well, speaking as Saul's lawyer; he can't come right now; he's at a barbecue ... I'd like to present the fact that Saul is numbered among the elect. Not the elect like you and I, but the elect being the nation of Israel. Amos 3:2 “Only you [Israel] have I known from all the families of the earth. This definitely enhances his chances relative to non-Israelites. Therefore, given this evidence I believe there is sufficient reasonable doubt; thus my client should be found to be 'born again' by the jury.
Unfortunately, the Judge is God and He often overrules the juries pronouncement and He picked the 'winners' and 'losers' before the foundation of the earth.

Well, while we are lawyering up, I must point out there in the fine print, the disclaimer concerning "chances". It either is, or isn't.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Funny to me how often something someone says to them means one thing and to me means something else. For example, the freewiller says "choice", which I heartily agree with. But to them it means that God does not predestine (or decree) what we will choose.

He predestined what we will choose about. Not how we will chose.

For example: Moses could not be the Bride of Christ.

Why could Moses not be?

Because God predestined Moses to choose to make his choice to believe in Him during the age of Israel. Not the church age.


God chose us before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4. Right?

It also says... How were we chosen. IN HIM.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."​

Where was Eve's body before she was revealed?
Sher was IN ADAM"S body.

Likewise... We are the Bride of Christ. We are now hid in Him in heavenly places!

"Even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Eph 2:5-6

We are now hidden In His BODY! Awaiting to be revealed in the resurrection with a body just like His own glorious body!!

who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."

Its not really complicated.

It only remains complicated while we do not have enough doctrine to think with.

grace and peace ...................

Your premise:
"He predestined what we will choose about. Not how we will chose."

Ok, let's see if I'm following you correctly: "Moses could not be the Bride of Christ"
Your reason? —"Because God predestined Moses to choose to make his choice to believe in Him during the age of Israel. Not the church age."

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I agree with you and your reason concerning Moses. WHAT does that have to do with the premise? Did you forget in your excitement over Moses not being of the Body of Christ, that you had laid out a premise to prove?

 

[GeneZ]

makesends said:
Funny to me how often something someone says to them means one thing and to me means something else. For example, the freewiller says "choice", which I heartily agree with. But to them it means that God does not predestine (or decree) what we will choose.

Your premise:
"He predestined what we will choose about. Not how we will chose."

Ok, let's see if I'm following you correctly: "Moses could not be the Bride of Christ"
Your reason? —"Because God predestined Moses to choose to make his choice to believe in Him during the age of Israel. Not the church age."

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I agree with you and your reason concerning Moses. WHAT does that have to do with the premise? Did you forget in your excitement over Moses not being of the Body of Christ, that you had laid out a premise to prove?

I was simply trying to illustrate how the word "predestined" is to be used.

And, yes. God did decree that we would believe. For God's decree is to determine what will be is to be. Otherwise? He would have ended up placing everyone who will reject Him into an endless loop of trying over again and again, at attempting to persuade them to reconsider. His Divine decree prevents that problem by declaring (from his omniscience) what will be is to be, saving a lot of wasted time otherwise.

Here is from the definition of God's Divine Decree given by R.B. Thieme, Jr
from his Bible Doctrine Dictionary.

Divine decree The sovereign declaration by God,
made in eternity past, of all that would occur
in history. In full theological description, the
decree of God is His eternal, holy, wise, and sov-
ereign purpose, comprehending simultaneously
all things that ever were or will be—in their causes,
courses, conditions, successions, and relations—
and determining their certain futurition (i.e.,
future occurrence).
In the divine decree is the all-inclusive will and
purpose of God, objectively designed by God for
His own glory, satisfaction, and pleasure (Prov.
16:4; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 2:10; Rev. 4:11). The “will
of God” in this context refers to God’s sovereign
decision that certain things would actually come
into being while other things would not. It is in
reality all one decree, made instantly, eternally,
and simultaneously and covering everything that
occurs in angelic and human history (Ps. 2:7;
148:6). However, the plural “decrees” is some-
times used to express its many facets and to
better accommodate human understanding. To
the finite mind, the decrees are many, but to God,
they are all one plan embracing both cause and
effect, means and end.
Volition in the decree. In rendering all things
certain to occur, God did not interfere with
angelic or human free will. In fact, He decreed
that His creatures would have free will and that
freewill decisions would certainly take place.
Omniscient God knew ahead of time precisely
what His creatures would decide, and He not only
decreed that those exact decisions would exist
but also decreed the exact manner in which His
perfect integrity would respond.
No event, then, is directly effected or caused
by the decree. The decree merely establishes the
facts of history—reality—much of which God does
not desire. Sin, human good, and evil are not the
desire of God, but they are in the decree because
they occur from individual volition. Neither
does God desire to cast His creatures into the
lake of fire, but it is decreed as certain for all who
choose to reject Jesus Christ as Savior (2 Pet. 3:9).
Illustration of the decree. In eternity past, from
His omniscience, God fed the facts of history
into what can be thought of as a giant computer.
Data consisting of the sovereign will of God and
the freewill decisions of man was integrated
into God’s computer to produce an output that
amounts to every detail of human history playing
out in time. For every individual there is a
printout of the course of his life. Romans 9:10–
13, for example, reveals information from the
decree: Jacob’s printout reads regeneration and
true Israel, while Esau’s reads condemnation and
exclusion from the Jewish race (cf. Mal. 1:2–3).
We do not know exactly what the future holds for
each of us, but God does. He knew it and recorded
it in eternity past, and it glorifies and pleases
Him now to run the printouts until the end.

 

[Wordsmith]

Well, I'm not making assumptions, I base it on the text below, and copied this partial post of mine from post #147 above:

"The text in John 6:35-44 is a series of an unbroken promise to the elect. They will be drawn, saved, raised. Why? We have a perfect salvation and a Perfect Savior."

Of course we have a perfect salvation and a Perfect Savior. The passage still does not say what you claim. John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
The whole world will not receive the gift provided but it is offered to the whole world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Only to those that come and believe.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Salvation is offered to “the world” but not all will believe. Those that believe will the Father give to the Son.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Believing is the requirement!
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. This verse does not nullify verse 40, believing is still the requirement. It is obvious we disagree on salvation and to whom and how it is received. But you save not made your case from scripture. If you and the others who believe as you do will simply prove with scriptural evidence without the cute little emojis it would go much further to further your cause. Do you have other passages to support your claim I can show others to support mine . Let’s try that and have a real discussion. Just stating I am wrong does not work on me SHOW me from scripture I am wrong.

 

[Wordsmith]

John 12:31-33
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.​

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. Jesus was lifted up He said all would be drawn. Nowhere does He say all will come and believe and be saved.

 

[David1701]

​

John 12:31-33​

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.​

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. Jesus was lifted up He said all would be drawn. Nowhere does He say all will come and believe and be saved.

If people don't come to Jesus, then they cannot be said to have been drawn!

What would you think of a musician who claimed to have drawn a crowd, when no-one came to listen?

Everyone who is drawn comes to Jesus, by definition; everyone who comes to Jesus is saved; everyone who is saved will be raised up at the last day. Salvation is an unbroken chain of grace; none of it depends upon us.

 

[makesends]

And, yes. God did decree that we would believe. For God's decree is to determine what will be is to be. Otherwise? He would have ended up placing everyone who will reject Him into an endless loop of trying over again and again, at attempting to persuade them to reconsider. His Divine decree prevents that problem by declaring (from his omniscience) what will be is to be, saving a lot of wasted time otherwise.

Ha! I like that description —endless loop. Never considered it that way. But you are right, from a certain POV.

 

[fastfredy0]

Ha! I like that description —endless loop. Never considered it that way. But you are right, from a certain POV.

It was too long an explanation for me ....looked like God looks into the future and determines what happens and that determination he approves and becomes His decree as to what happens.
Again, too long to read to get to a point, said point not clearly defined.

Agreed ... endless loop (I think)
Hmmm, your not a software engineer by chance?

 

[makesends]

The context asserts salvation as well as drawing, and raising. In fact, this is what the text is concerning; it is soteriological.

I agree. But it does not say that there are none drawn that are not saved. But one may well infer that those drawn salvifically will ALWAYS be saved, and that EVERY one that God intends to save will be saved, but those are found elsewhere in Scripture —not from the standalone verse.

 

[makesends]

It was too long an explanation for me ....looked like God looks into the future and determines what happens and that determination he approves and becomes His decree as to what happens.
Again, too long to read to get to a point, said point not clearly defined.

Agreed ... endless loop (I think)
Hmmm, your not a software engineer by chance?

No. Electronics engineering associates degree, 1977. Never even learned Fortran 4.

I wasn't referring to the long quote he had put from RBTjr. That had good things, and, like @GeneZ , it had some extra-biblical reasoning that would be hard to defend.

But the notion of God, in his unsure attempt to save everyone, reaching out to them repeatedly after rejection upon rejection, struck me funny. And he has a point there. Libertarian freewill teaching does imply such a silly notion.

 

[fastfredy0]

Libertarian freewill teaching does imply such a silly notion.

Libertarian freewill would lead to 50% of people being Christians IMO. From human stand point it is a better method of selection if numbers saved is the criteria.

No. Electronics engineering associates degree, 1977. Never even learned Fortran 4.

Your 'endless loop' comment had me guessing at software engineer.
Gee, I graduated in '77 also. Gee, you must be VERY old. *giggle* I actually tweaked a Fortran program in the 80s.

 

[ReverendRV]

Like robots.

..... or, if we are the first cause of God's choosing then God, for the purposes of our adoption/salvation, God is our robot.

That's pretty good...

I think you've solved the Argument. If they say "No, God can be responsive without being a Robot"; it's wrong to ever call us a robot...

 

[makesends]

OK.

But it does. It is a unified promise to all those drawn. You're disconnecting the promises that are linked due to your theology, not from exegesis.

All the drawn are drawn salvifically. And the text isn't a stand-alone verse, it fits with the entire salvation concept throughout Scripture. John 6:65-66 also sheds light on this fact.

Perfect Savior, perfect saving, perfect salvation.

I haven't disconnected the promises that are linked due to my theology. I'm not sure what promises you're talking about; my theology, as far as I know, is very close to yours. I don't know if there are any drawn, attracted, etc to Christ that are not ultimately saved because I haven't seen Scripture to say that there aren't. In fact, if I had to guess, there are many that are in some way or other attracted, but aren't elect and aren't saved.

For example, the Rich young ruler, Seed that fell on rocky soil, "Almost you persuade me to be a Christian", and so on...

Or, in our experience, someone who "loves all religions"; or someone who says they love God, but don't think God is in charge; or someone who has seen the benefits of the peace of God and is attracted to those who believe and thinks that is what it is all about, at least, until life gets rough; etc.

FWIW, I don't for a skinny minute think that their drawing, or their attraction, is the same as the drawing of the elect. No more so than the faith of the lost is the same kind of faith as that of the regenerate.

 

[makesends]

Well, the promises within the text itself. Jesus will save all given to Him by the Father, they will be drawn, saved, and raised.

I have no disagreement with that, no exceptions. The question is merely —are none others also drawn in some way?

The entirety of the text is about salvation. Looking at its entire context, those drawn are saved. Nothing in the text suggests drawing and no salvation.

Agreed. But the logic of the statement, if taken as a standalone text, only says that all who are saved, were drawn. It says nothing about the rest.

Furthermore I will ask this: Where is an explicit text that shows one drawn, and not saved? Also, what in your understanding takes place with/from the person who is drawn, one who is saved, and the other who isn't saved according to your teaching?

A different drawing, if there even is a different drawing. I'm not even saying there is one. I'm just saying that the Scripture (and particularly that text) doesn't make the point that none others are 'drawn' in some way.

None of those show drawing by God. God doesn't draw persons to Himself He knows will not be saved.

How do you know this? I agree he doesn't draw any other salvifically, but, it seems, he does appear attractive to some who will never see the Kingdom of Heaven. You appear to be arguing meaning of words —their use— not facts. I don't think you and I disagree on the facts, here.

But again, what happens to the persons drawn to God? You believe one is saved, the other isn't. I believe all drawn are saved, and that John 6 shows forth this truth. Not one thing in the text suggests drawing and not being saved, yet it strongly shows some not being drawn, and turning from Christ; John 6:65-66.

OK, I get you, but none of that is drawing from God. Religious curiosity isn't drawing from God. Again, the text shows those who are drawn come to Christ.

Ok, according to your definition, attraction is not the same thing as drawing, so, ok. I didn't mean to cause a fight.

Fair enough my friend, but there is nothing in Scripture that shows two kinds of drawing. There is only the drawing of the Father that saves which is proven to be the case in the text at hand.

Scripture shows no other kind, so it is all personal speculation, not Bible.

Ok.

But we do have the principle where the Gospel 'draws' some and repels others. You and I have both seen Arminians gladly receive the Gospel for truth, and thus, at least in some sense, are drawn to Christ, but then turn away when they see what is involved in the 'project', after which the Gospel has a bad taste in their mouth.