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John 6:44-45

Carbon

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John 6:44-45,
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

What's everyone's thoughts on these?
 
All who are drawn will be saved, and all the saved will be raised. All of this is Soli Deo Gloria.
I've heard of some who thought they were drawn, but departed the faith. What does "drawn" mean here? Does it mean the same thing in every mention or in similar terms? Are there similar terms?
 
I know the Jews were grumbling and complaining to Jesus about His saying he is the bread that comes down from heaven. Just like anyone else who is unregenerate, cannot understand these things, because faith is a supernatural thing. We are all destitute of faith because of God's just judgment. God has to draw us to Himself by His Almighty power to unite us by faith, against the inclination of our corrupt flesh. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;



I have seen people come up with all sorts of interpretations of verse 45, It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


Here is what I think.

All the elect children of God, who are the body of Christ, who have heard and learned, by His word. Which is to say, the Holy Spirit applies and teaches the word which causes faith through regeneration. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and remind you of all that I said to you. John 14:26.


But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 1 John 2:20.
 
1 John 2:19.

All drawn will be saved and raised. Also, true belief is qualified by Scripture.
Is "called" the same thing?

What is John 12:32 referring to? What does it mean? Who are the "all people"? What does "draw" mean here?

NIV: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
LSB: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Not opposing you here, btw. Just asking for proof that only the Elect are drawn. I agree that certainly, only the Elect are drawn salvifically. But I'm not at all sure that every mention of God drawing (or similar words) someone means, salvifically.
 
Drawing is the effectual call begun in the New Birth. Its the work of the Spirit bringing an elect vessel of mercy to Faith in Christ.
 
Drawing is the effectual call begun in the New Birth. Its the work of the Spirit bringing an elect vessel of mercy to Faith in Christ.
Does "draw" and its related forms in scripture always only refer to this? And I mean, wherever stated in reference to Christ drawing people unto himself, or God drawing them to Christ, and such.

Is the same true for other related words and themes? —does it apply to "call" and its related forms?
 
I've heard of some who thought they were drawn, but departed the faith. What does "drawn" mean here? Does it mean the same thing in every mention or in similar terms? Are there similar terms?
Repentance ~ by ReverendRV * September 3

John 6:44 KJV
; "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Jesus often spoke to the people in Parables, and it could be confusing to the masses. He would describe himself as coming from Heaven, like the Manna which fed the Israelites in ancient days during their wilderness walk. Those who heard him say it about himself were confused. They asked, “Isn’t this Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he say, ‘I came from heaven’?” ~ They knew Jesus and his family well; but couldn’t fathom the thought he came from Heaven. He said, “Stop complaining because no one can come to him unless God his Father draws them to him.” Jesus Christ explained why; ‘those who come are taught by God and everyone one these will come’…

Being drawn to God is like the pull of a magnet. God is the GREAT magnet who draws all things to it. We’re not like lifeless iron filings who have no say so, which can only fly to the Magnet; we are magnets ourselves. We can choose to turn to God or choose to turn away from him; or so it seems. If it were the case, why does the Bible say we’re drawn like heavy water from a well? God is like a Magnet which always has its North Magnetic Pole facing us; if our southern magnetic poles were facing God, then we would fly to him faster than scrap metal and be in Heaven! ~ This never happens because of Sin. Have you Committed Adultery? No? Jesus said if you’ve lusted, you’ve Committed Adultery in your Heart. A part of us has our magnetic poles turned to oppose God’s drawing and we are repelled from God by our own forces. The reason we’re not blasted completely from God into Hell, is due to the Gracious pull of the greater Magnet; He attracts us because we we’re made in the image of God. What we need is to have our Poles turned to God…

The Bible says God will give us a New Heart, because from out of the Heart comes all kinds of Vile Sins. A New Heart is like having our magnetic poles turned, and now we are Attracted to God! We draw near to God without him having to increase his Magnetic Field in order to overpower us against our Will. When we have a change of heart, we stop resisting the Drawing and move toward God. ~ If you’re Willing to Repent, which means changing direction like inverting the position of our Magnetic Poles; then you are ready for the Gospel! Sinners are Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in Jesus Christ as our Risen Lord God; without you doing anything to earn your Forgiveness. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ to be your Lord God; join your local Church and study the Bible. ~ There will be no more Hell since you are heading away from it! Other Sinners will seem more distant to you because of the separation which is now growing between you and them. You will be drawn to the Bible, the Church and to other Believers. Repenting will set you in a whole new direction. ~ God is personal; Jesus is attractive, the Lover of your soul. He is a friend that ‘sticks’ closer than a brother…

John 6:65 NIV; He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
 
marksend

Does "draw" and its related forms in scripture always only refer to this?

I dont know, maybe or maybe not, however it does in the matter of Salvation

And I mean, wherever stated in reference to Christ drawing people unto himself, or God drawing them to Christ, and such.

Okay Yes

Is the same true for other related words and themes? —does it apply to "call" and its related forms?

When call is related to the chosen, Yes. See there is a General Call of the Gospel that is proclaimed to all who providence brings under its proclamation, but there is a personal effectual call to the redeemed, regenerated person who God is bring to conversion and faith.

That call brings them out of darkness into the light 1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The call rendered that result !
 
John 6:44 No man comes unto me, except the Father which has sent me draw [(1) to draw, drag off 2) metaphor, to draw by inward power, lead, impel] him., he infers it to be an incontrovertible fact, that the hearts of believers are so effectually governed from above, that they follow with undeviating affection.

The Lord draws men by their own wills; wills, however, which he himself has produced - viz. that the grace offered by the Lord is not merely one which every individual has full liberty of choosing to receive or reject, but a grace which produces in the heart both choice and will: so that all the good works which follow after are its fruit and effect; the only will which yields obedience being the will which grace itself has made.

Arminians would say the Spirit's work of conviction is the same both in the converted and in unconverted, that which distinguishes the one class from the other is that the former yielded to His strivings whereas the latter resist them. But if this were the case then the Christian would have ground for boasting and self-glorying over his cooperation with the Spirit; but this would flatly contradict Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." A.W. Pink – Attributes of God
 
I dont know, maybe or maybe not, however it does in the matter of Salvation



Okay Yes



When call is related to the chosen, Yes. See there is a General Call of the Gospel that is proclaimed to all who providence brings under its proclamation, but there is a personal effectual call to the redeemed, regenerated person who God is bring to conversion and faith.

That call brings them out of darkness into the light 1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The call rendered that result !
Agreed
 
Is "called" the same thing?

What is John 12:32 referring to? What does it mean? Who are the "all people"? What does "draw" mean here?

NIV: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
LSB: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Not opposing you here, btw. Just asking for proof that only the Elect are drawn. I agree that certainly, only the Elect are drawn salvifically. But I'm not at all sure that every mention of God drawing (or similar words) someone means, salvifically.
Are we back to "all" as either "all without exception," or "all without distinction?"
 
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I've heard of some who thought they were drawn, but departed the faith. What does "drawn" mean here? Does it mean the same thing in every mention or in similar terms? Are there similar terms?

The operative word, usually, discussed is "draw". The link has all uses for comparison as requested.

G1670
vs Aor Act 3 Sg
SHOULD-BE-DRAWING

 
John 6:44-45,
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

What's everyone's thoughts on these?
Since Jesus came to His own, Israel that is who He is talking to. Jesus is saying that He is their Redeemer and they need to come to Him to have access to the Father.

The Father knows who are ready to receive Jesus as their Messiah and draws them to the Lord. The Father revealed who Jesus was to those who were humble, eg. Peter but not the Pharisees.
 
makesends said:
What is John 12:32 referring to? What does it mean? Who are the "all people"? What does "draw" mean here?
Well, actually it doesn't really say all people (Greek) but it could mean that. But we know not all people have been drawn. It appears to me Jesus is indirectly referring to the Greeks who desired to see Him, and that He is teaching that in His death and accomplishment all kinds of people everywhere will be drawn, not every single person ever.
(Playing Devil's Advocate, here): When you say, here, "we know not all people have been drawn", you seem to be using the conclusion to prove the conclusion. I'm asking how you know that only the Elect are "drawn".

But yes, it easily could be referring to "all peoples" —that is, "people groups"— and in fact, some translations render it that way. And yes, the Greek doesn't even include the word that is implied by "all". Some translations even say "all things", if I remember right.

It seems evident there is a certain 'draw' or attraction of unbelievers to the Gospel and to Christ, perhaps fraught with sin, but nevertheless, and attraction. And I'm thinking it is not so clear in Scripture that only the Elect are drawn, except salvifically. That all I'm getting at.

The fact that the Elect are certainly drawn, does not mean that only the Elect are drawn, except salvifically.
 
makesends said:
What is John 12:32 referring to? What does it mean? Who are the "all people"? What does "draw" mean here?

(Playing Devil's Advocate, here): When you say, here, "we know not all people have been drawn", you seem to be using the conclusion to prove the conclusion. I'm asking how you know that only the Elect are "drawn".

But yes, it easily could be referring to "all peoples" —that is, "people groups"— and in fact, some translations render it that way. And yes, the Greek doesn't even include the word that is implied by "all". Some translations even say "all things", if I remember right.

It seems evident there is a certain 'draw' or attraction of unbelievers to the Gospel and to Christ, perhaps fraught with sin, but nevertheless, and attraction. And I'm thinking it is not so clear in Scripture that only the Elect are drawn, except salvifically. That all I'm getting at.

The fact that the Elect are certainly drawn, does not mean that only the Elect are drawn, except salvifically.
Only the elect are saved. Drawing is Salvation begun, its the New Birth. Jn 12:32 applies simply to all the saved, the lost were never drawn.
 
In John 12:32,

In these words our Jesus was speaking of His death on the cross, and what would be accomplished as a result of His death. Its a Testimony to the Saving Power of His Cross, His Person and Work,

Paul Testified to its Saving Power Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
That was Gods Purpose for Christ giving Himself by way of Cross Work, set forth in the very first chapter of this same book Gal 1:4
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

So the drawing commences the saving deliverance of the Cross of Christ, so we know the all of Jn 12:32 cant include the permanently lost, lest we charge the Cross with insufficiency to deliver and save them which is unthinkable, so the drawing is limited to the delivered.
 
makesends said:
What is John 12:32 referring to? What does it mean? Who are the "all people"? What does "draw" mean here?

(Playing Devil's Advocate, here): When you say, here, "we know not all people have been drawn", you seem to be using the conclusion to prove the conclusion. I'm asking how you know that only the Elect are "drawn".

But yes, it easily could be referring to "all peoples" —that is, "people groups"— and in fact, some translations render it that way. And yes, the Greek doesn't even include the word that is implied by "all". Some translations even say "all things", if I remember right.

It seems evident there is a certain 'draw' or attraction of unbelievers to the Gospel and to Christ, perhaps fraught with sin, but nevertheless, and attraction. And I'm thinking it is not so clear in Scripture that only the Elect are drawn, except salvifically. That all I'm getting at.

The fact that the Elect are certainly drawn, does not mean that only the Elect are drawn, except salvifically.
I suscribe to Spurgeon's lifting shirts and looking for yellow paint on peoples back, to find out if they're Elect; then Preach the Gospel to them. But since God hasn't Marked Elect Unbelievers this Way, Preach the Gospel to All you can...

Many are Called but Few are Chosen...

Perhaps this describes how All are Drawn. The Good Soil is Chosen; but the Rocky, Weedy and Trodden Soils are Many. In Christianity, we teach a General Call and an Effective Call. As Calvinists, we are so busy defending the Effective Call; we act as if there is no General Call...

When we're amongst ourselves? Sure; we admit there is a General Call to All. Is General Revelation, also a General Call? It leaves us without an excuse...

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge.They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them.Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun. - Psalm 19:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm19:excuversion=NIV

This isn't the Gospel Call. But we CAN say ALL receive a General Call of some sort; effective enough to leave us without an excuse for breaking the First Commandment...
 
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makesends said:
What is John 12:32 referring to? What does it mean? Who are the "all people"? What does "draw" mean here?

(Playing Devil's Advocate, here): When you say, here, "we know not all people have been drawn", you seem to be using the conclusion to prove the conclusion. I'm asking how you know that only the Elect are "drawn".

But yes, it easily could be referring to "all peoples" —that is, "people groups"— and in fact, some translations render it that way. And yes, the Greek doesn't even include the word that is implied by "all". Some translations even say "all things", if I remember right.

It seems evident there is a certain 'draw' or attraction of unbelievers to the Gospel and to Christ, perhaps fraught with sin, but nevertheless, and attraction. And I'm thinking it is not so clear in Scripture that only the Elect are drawn, except salvifically. That all I'm getting at.

The fact that the Elect are certainly drawn, does not mean that only the Elect are drawn, except salvifically.
It means the same drawing in John 6. Two different contexts.
 
Only the elect are saved. Drawing is Salvation begun, its the New Birth. Jn 12:32 applies simply to all the saved, the lost were never drawn.
I agree only the elect are saved. The lost were never drawn salvifically. Attracted, though....? hmmm.
 
Drawing is the work of the Spirit and the effectual call in them that The Father has Chosen, Christ has redeemed by His Blood, hence they are effectually called out of darkness, by giving them Life and conversion unto Christ, the drawing is inward, spiritual, and efficacious.
 
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