John 6:44-45

[brightfame52]

This drawing Jn 6:44;12:32 needs be powerful and efficacious overcoming the state of darkness we be in by nature, hence Peter says we are called out of darkness 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Paul calls it a translation and deliverance Col 1:13
who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

 

[Alive]

The operative word, usually, discussed is "draw". The link has all uses for comparison as requested.

G1670
vs Aor Act 3 Sg
SHOULD-BE-DRAWING

G1670 - helkō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1670 - ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to ; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare .

www.blueletterbible.org

I see His language as being very clear and He aimed it right between the eyes of the religious leaders.
Bang! Additionally, He knew exactly how that language would mesh with what all of the record has to say about election and God’s choosing.

 

[brightfame52]

The drawing of Jn 6:44 and 12:32 is inclusive of bringing about repentance unto Life. The effectual call of Christs people, sheep is unto repentance , brings them to Christ Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Matt 9:23

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The word to is a strong prep which denotes bringing to a purposed result,

And so His call unto repentance is effected by Him giving them repentance Acts 5:31;11:18

 

[civic]

The drawing of Jn 6:44 and 12:32 is inclusive of bringing about repentance unto Life. The effectual call of Christs people, sheep is unto repentance , brings them to Christ Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Matt 9:23

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The word to is a strong prep which denotes bringing to a purposed result,

And so His call unto repentance is effected by Him giving them repentance Acts 5:31;11:18

who are the sinners Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 9:23 ?

are there different classes of sinners ?

or are all under sin and declared sinners as Paul proclaims in the book of Romans ?

 

[brightfame52]

who are the sinners Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 9:23 ?

are there different classes of sinners ?

or are all under sin and declared sinners as Paul proclaims in the book of Romans ?

Yes there are different groups of sinners, some who Christ died for and some He didnt die for.

Some sinners are vessels of Mercy, meaning their sinfulness God will have mercy on, and some sinners are vessels of wrath meaning God will execute righteous wrath upon. You familiar with the term elect ?

 

[GeneZ]

John 6:44-45,
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

What's everyone's thoughts on these?

Jesus said that because the Jews in Israel were conditioned by the Pharisees to seek salvation by works. When a new rabbi leader arose the Jews sought him out to see what works he would prescribe to gain eternal life. That is why we find passages like the following...

"Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what must l I do to inherit eternal life?” Luke 18:18​

​

"And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to ​

inherit eternal life?” Luke 10:25​

Jesus wanted to weed out the 'works for salvation' mentality that had been following Him.
That is why, knowing full well how they would react, he said what he did in John 6:53-55.

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man ​

and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood ​

has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My ​

blood is drink indeed." Jn 6:53-55​

The Jews seeking for some works to do took Jesus literally. Jesus was speaking in a spiritual sense.
Jesus did that to get them to stop following and taking up space by those who he knew would not be productive.

Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning ​

which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I ​

told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”​

​

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. John 6:64-66.​

Its not by works (plurality of religious prescribed deeds to perform) that we are saved.
Its only by God's drawing of a soul that will bring a person to the point of faith in Christ that saves.
Jesus said that there is only one work for salvation the Father approves of.
Not by works (religious system). But, by one work alone!

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works (plurality) God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” jn 6:28-29​

​

grace and peace ...................​

 

[GeneZ]

I agree only the elect are saved. The lost were never drawn salvifically. Attracted, though....? hmmm.

Romans 1:18-21 shows that even the worst reprobates God began to draw at which point they choose to reject.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, ​

who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, ​

because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—​

his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been ​

made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking​

became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."​

That is why it says they are without excuse. If God never drew the unbeliever? That unbeliever would be with excuse!

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—​

his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been ​

made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

​

grace and peace ................​

 

[Carbon]

Jesus said that because the Jews in Israel were conditioned by the Pharisees to seek salvation by works. When a new rabbi leader arose the Jews sought him out to see what works he would prescribe to gain eternal life. That is why we find passages like the following...

"Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what must l I do to inherit eternal life?” Luke 18:18​

​

"And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to ​

inherit eternal life?” Luke 10:25​

Jesus wanted to weed out the 'works for salvation' mentality that had been following Him.
That is why, knowing full well how they would react, he said what he did in John 6:53-55.

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man ​

and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood ​

has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My ​

blood is drink indeed." Jn 6:53-55​

The Jews seeking for some works to do took Jesus literally. Jesus was speaking in a spiritual sense.
Jesus did that to get them to stop following and taking up space by those who he knew would not be productive.

Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning ​

which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I ​

told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”​

​

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. John 6:64-66.​

Its not by works (plurality of religious prescribed deeds to perform) that we are saved.
Its only by God's drawing of a soul that will bring a person to the point of faith in Christ that saves.
Jesus said that there is only one work for salvation the Father approves of.
Not by works (religious system). But, by one work alone!

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works (plurality) God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” jn 6:28-29​

​

grace and peace ...................​

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to do the works of God? Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” John 6:28-29.

Our believing is a work of God.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10.

 

[GeneZ]

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to do the works of God? Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” John 6:28-29.

Our believing is a work of God.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10.

Believing happens because God worked to make us able to believe.

Why did God not have those reprobates in Romans 1 to believe?
Does that mean God makes us believe? Or, makes us able to believe?

The work of God is His power of grace which makes us able to believe.
If not? God makes the backslidden believer to be backslidden.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.. Rom 10:9

Its does not say....

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that
God raised him from the dead, its because God made you do so.

Unless we understand the ways of grace and the power it gives the helpless we will fail to understand how its arranged by God to make us able to believe.

 

[Carbon]

Believing happens because God worked to make us able to believe.

We agree here.

Why did God not have those reprobates in Romans 1 to believe?
Does that mean God makes us believe? Or, makes us able to believe?

Makes us able.

The work of God is His power of grace which makes us able to believe.
If not? God makes the backslidden believer to be backslidden.

Okay. But backsliders have only themselves to balme.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.. Rom 10:9

If you know Jesus is Lord, you are saved., Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 1 John 5:1.

Its does not say....

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that
God raised him from the dead, its because God made you do so.

Yes, I agree.

Unless we understand the ways of grace and the power it gives the helpless we will fail to understand how its arranged by God to make us able to believe.

 

[Eleanor]

Believing happens because God worked to make us able to believe.

That would be an incomplete work.

God not only makes us able, but he gives us the desire by working in our disposition, which governs the will, and we do choose to believe because we desire to do so, we are not neutral in the matter.

Why did God not have those reprobates in Romans 1 to believe?
Does that mean God makes us believe? Or, makes us able to believe?

The work of God is His power of grace which makes us able to believe.
If not? God makes the backslidden believer to be backslidden.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.. Rom 10:9

Its does not say....

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that
God raised him from the dead, its because God made you do so.

Unless we understand the ways of grace and the power it gives the helpless we will fail to understand how its arranged by God to make us able to believe.

 

[armylngst]

I've heard of some who thought they were drawn, but departed the faith. What does "drawn" mean here? Does it mean the same thing in every mention or in similar terms? Are there similar terms?

In John 6, we see different groups drawn to Christ, however, they were drawn to Christ for different reasons. Christ is saying that only those drawn to Him by the Father are His. There were those who were drawn to Him because He fed them and they wanted to make him King so they could get a free lunch every day. There were those who were drawn by word of mouth and curiosity. These all left and only the disciples remained at the end of John 6.

 

[civic]

In John 6, we see different groups drawn to Christ, however, they were drawn to Christ for different reasons. Christ is saying that only those drawn to Him by the Father are His. There were those who were drawn to Him because He fed them and they wanted to make him King so they could get a free lunch every day. There were those who were drawn by word of mouth and curiosity. These all left and only the disciples remained at the end of John 6.

Was judas drawn any different from the others who left everything to follow Him ?

Here is where I say there should be some flexibility when we use certain terms and make them universal without exception. Would you agree ?

 

[Eleanor]

Was judas drawn any different from the others who left everything to follow Him ?

Were any "drawn," or were they chosen. Did they seek him, or did he seek them?

Here is where I say there should be some flexibility when we use certain terms and make them universal without exception. Would you agree ?

 

[civic]

Were any "drawn," or were they chosen. Did they seek him, or did he seek them?

judas was just the same as the others both chosen by Christ and drawn by Him. He was one of the 12 disciples. Don't let your doctrine dictate or contradict those facts.

 

[Eleanor]

judas was just the same as the others both chosen by Christ and drawn by Him. He was one of the 12 disciples. Don't let your doctrine dictate or contradict those facts.

judas was just the same as the others both chosen by Christ and drawn by Him. He was one of the 12 disciples. Don't let your doctrine dictate or contradict those facts.

As you do?

 

[Arial]

judas was just the same as the others both chosen by Christ and drawn by Him. He was one of the 12 disciples. Don't let your doctrine dictate or contradict those facts.

Judas wasn't chosen for salvation. The other disciples were. Judas was chosen as the hand that betrayed Jesus, handing him over to His crucifiers that the OT scriptures might be fulfilled.

 

[armylngst]

Was judas drawn any different from the others who left everything to follow Him ?

Here is where I say there should be some flexibility when we use certain terms and make them universal without exception. Would you agree ?

Jesus's words should be sufficient to say that the Father drew Judas to Jesus, but because Judas was a devil, the result would be different. Each had a role to play, but only the 11 came without ulterior motives. A possible understanding is that if the Father had not drawn Judas, he too would have left.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Was judas drawn any different from the others who left everything to follow Him ?

Here is where I say there should be some flexibility when we use certain terms and make them universal without exception. Would you agree ?

Judas was the only one prophesied to betray Jesus. That was his purpose. That is what he was drawn for. That is what was fulfilled.

Were the other 11 prophesied? Was the number of Apostles mentioned somewhere in the OT? As far as I remember no...not particularly. But Judas had no more choice in his calling then the other 11. Or Paul for that matter. That is for certain.

 

[GeneZ]

Again... Romans 1:18-21 reveals that God initiates drawing all men.

Not all are positive to the attempt to draw them.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the
godlessness and wickedness of men, who suppress the truth by
their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain
to them, because God has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal
power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor
gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish
hearts were darkened."

Some people here have a problem with the thinking that God gives all a fair chance.

A.) since what may be known about God is plain
to them, because God has made it plain to them.

B.) being understood from what has been made, so that
they are without excuse.

C.) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him
as God nor gave thanks to him.


If any unbeliever studied TULIP? And, some do. At the final judgment?
They could use that as their excuse for God not saving them.

Some here need to drop their zealousness and begin to think with what Romans 1 is telling us.
God made an attempt to draw those men. His grace was not irresistible.

And, that does not leave Arminianism off the hook either. Both sides have glitches.

grace and peace .............