Is Total Depravity a required belief?

[Arial]

Aside: I don't even think one MUST believe Christ was crucified to be saved. It would be very unusual to be a believer and not believe Christ was crucified but, is it essential to believe in His crucifixion for salvation? I sort of think NO. Maybe 1 Cor. 15:1-4 would be a text to prove me wrong.

1 Cor 15:3-5 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

12-14 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

 

[Arial]

Agreed. Again I state that I believe: Faith consists more of certainty that “Christ is Lord and Savior” rather than “discernment of facts”.

I would say it can be that simple for some who do not have the mental capacity to go beyond that, but truly believe it, because it has been placed in their heart by God. And that is the key. God placing it in their heart, and why their are so many false conversions. (The parable of the sower, and Heb 6.) The gospel is so often presented as a choice we make without the gospel actually being given, rather than a work of God in us, a complete regeneration.

But because it is God doing it, we must be careful to not define how He does it, or the information contained in it. In the "olden days" people were more likely to be hearing the actual gospel all their lives as they set with their family under the systematic, expostitional, exegetical, preaching of the whole counsel of God. And they either believed it or they didn't.

For me, I did say the prayer, because the book I was reading that began to change my thinking on the Bible and Christianity said to do so----as did every book by brother brought me. (Which until this one book, I read, scoffed, dismissed, and they were mostly about experiences, end times from a dispensational view, or demonic activity and deliverance from it.) But this one was pointing out prophecy made in the Bible that was fulfilled in the Bible. Before I said the prayer inviting Jesus into my life (how absurd that sounds to me now. Completely topsy, turvy.) I prefaced it with "Just in case this is true." The prayer did not save me, but God had begun a work that He brought to completion while I was sleeping and out of my own way. I awoke knowing only this. That the entire Bible was true, every word, in which case whatever it said about Jesus was true. That was the extent of my knowledge---though I did know that it was said that He was crucified and came back to life and that this was witnessed.

The thing is, I grew up with the Bible and reading the Bible, and I couldn't make heads or tails out of it. I believed in God, but did not know Him. I believed Jesus existed but knew nothing about Him. But on the morning of----I began reading those words I knew were true, starting in Gen 1:1 and Matt 1:1, and though I could not understand everything, still don't, never will, I read it looking for God and Jesus, and I could understand it. And what I couldn't understand, I bowed down to, like it or not.

 

[David1701]

Agreed. Again I state that I believe: Faith consists more of certainty that “Christ is Lord and Savior” rather than “discernment of facts”. (Salvation is nuanced to a degree from a human standpoint). I'm glad that if Christ chose me then it's not up to me to get the nuances correct in order to be saved)
So, though I doubt an idol worshiper could be a Christian I'm not sure its impossible... for example: I consider The Mass to be idol worshiping. Could someone who participates be unaware or barely aware?... maybe .... do some Roman Catholics who participate in The Mass believe “Christ is Lord and Savior” in a saving way ... I sort of think so.


Agreed.
Aside: I don't even think one MUST believe Christ was crucified to be saved. It would be very unusual to be a believer and not believe Christ was crucified but, is it essential to believe in His crucifixion for salvation? I sort of think NO. Maybe 1 Cor. 15:1-4 would be a text to prove me wrong.

Agreed. After salvation I still think God is doing all the work to which we respond.

Aside: I don't even think one MUST believe Christ was crucified to be saved. It would be very unusual to be a believer and not believe Christ was crucified but, is it essential to believe in His crucifixion for salvation? I sort of think NO. Maybe 1 Cor. 15:1-4 would be a text to prove me wrong.

Yikes!!!

No crucifixion - no salvation.

If you don't believe in the Jesus who shed his blood, died on the cross, then rose bodily from the dead, then you don't believe in him at all.

 

[ReverendRV]

Agreed. Again I state that I believe: Faith consists more of certainty that “Christ is Lord and Savior” rather than “discernment of facts”. (Salvation is nuanced to a degree from a human standpoint). I'm glad that if Christ chose me then it's not up to me to get the nuances correct in order to be saved)
So, though I doubt an idol worshiper could be a Christian I'm not sure its impossible... for example: I consider The Mass to be idol worshiping. Could someone who participates be unaware or barely aware?... maybe .... do some Roman Catholics who participate in The Mass believe “Christ is Lord and Savior” in a saving way ... I sort of think so.


Agreed.
Aside: I don't even think one MUST believe Christ was crucified to be saved. It would be very unusual to be a believer and not believe Christ was crucified but, is it essential to believe in His crucifixion for salvation? I sort of think NO. Maybe 1 Cor. 15:1-4 would be a text to prove me wrong.

Agreed. After salvation I still think God is doing all the work to which we respond.

Could you please explain your statement you don't think one MUST believe Christ was Crucified to be Saved?

 

[fastfredy0]

Could you please explain your statement you don't think one MUST believe Christ was Crucified to be Saved?

First off ...
I believe Christ died on the cross for believer's sins.
I believe we are saved by faith.
I believe faith must have content (knowledge) for one cannot believe what one does not know.

Now to the question ... Must one believe Christ was crucified to be saved (the question is not: 1) was Christ crucified or 2) is Christ's crucifixion necessary.

If I can show one example of someone who did not believe Christ would die and show that person is (was) as saved believer .. then I think I've can show that belief in Christ's death is not necessary for salvation of a person. (Aside: I'm not sure one can definitely be saved without knowing Christ died .. I'm saying 'maybe')

Premise 1: 11 of 12 of Christ's disciples were elected before the foundation of the earth
Premise 2: Let's assume 1 of the 11 died before Christ's death (yeah, I know it didn't happen)
Premise 3: Many of the 11 (probably all) did not believe Christ would be crucified. Luke 18:31-34
Conclusion: We have people who did not believe Christ would be crucified who would have been saved had they died ... Again, we have apostles being told by God Himself that He would die and they don't believe it. Are we to believe they were not saved till 3 days after Christ's death (longer of Thomas) when they actually see Him; that at that point they are "officially saved" and not before?

How about the 1,000s that believed in Christ while Christ was here for 3 years .... some of them must have died. Are all of them doomed to hell because they didn't think Christ would be crucified?

... and maybe the content of what must be believed to be saved changed as events unfolded and that might explain away the above speculations .... what about now ....
.... if a person was told everything about Christ except that He was crucified would that mean it was impossible for that person to be saved? Maybe, I have some doubts. I don't know of a complete list of details of what must be believed in order to be saved. Where is scripture does it say one must believe Christ was crucified to be saved .... perhaps 1 Cor. 15:1-4 .... if so, must we believe Christ was raised on the 3rd day in order to be saved which is a detail in those verses.

Others have come to similar conclusion (which doesn't prove)
"We mean that in justifying faith, Christ and His grace is the object immediately before the believer's mind; and that if he has a saving knowledge of this, but be ignorant of all the rest of the gospel, he may still be saved by believing this." "Systematic Theology" by Robert L. Dabney

Calvin, John. Institutes of the Christian Religion: We shall now have a full definition of faith if we say that it is a firm and sure knowledge of the divine favor toward us, founded on the truth of a free promise in Christ. Faith consists more of certainty than discernment.”

Herman Bavinck – Reformed Dogmatics: There is a danger in reducing the faith to quantitative measurement. Such an arithmetic of belief obscures the qualitative, gracious, person, organic relation to Christ. Faith is trust in the grace of God and not calculable. The content of faith is not reducible to an arithmetic addition of articles. All believers, in principle, share the same knowledge and trust in the grace of God to save.

The Athanasian Creed states the contents of what must be believed for salvation (the Trinity, hypostatic union and the death and resurrection of Christ). ... .This affirms the idea that one must believe in Christ crucified

.... that being said, I don't think 1 in 10,000 Christians doesn't believe Christ was crucified.


O.K. ... you're turn .... list the details one must believe/know in order to be saved; details, that if not believed leads to hell.

 

[fastfredy0]

If you don't believe in the Jesus who shed his blood, died on the cross, then rose bodily from the dead, then you don't believe in him at all.

I think you missed the point I was speculating about .... not to worry ... not important.

 

[atpollard]

How about the 1,000s that believed in Christ while Christ was here for 3 years .... some of them must have died. Are all of them doomed to hell because they didn't think Christ would be crucified?

Since you have explained what YOU meant (it was not my place to answer for what YOU had in mind), I am free to offer another … MODERN … hypothetical example:

• A person has an IQ of 30-50 and can comprehend the concept of “death” as “asleep” but not the more complex concept of “crucifixion”. Would someone be beyond salvation because they fall in the lower half of Down Syndrome?
• (I think not.)

 

[fastfredy0]

Since you have explained what YOU meant (it was not my place to answer for what YOU had in mind), I am free to offer another … MODERN … hypothetical example:

• A person has an IQ of 30-50 and can comprehend the concept of “death” as “asleep” but not the more complex concept of “crucifixion”. Would someone be beyond salvation because they fall in the lower half of Down Syndrome?
• (I think not.)

... with an IQ well over 60 I take it you're not talking about me as you stated people with IQs of 30-50
I thought about the age of accountability argument but I avoid it ... seems to be an exception that we put aside when presenting view points. But if the age of accountability is true, then technically a valid point.

 

[Mr GLee]

Do Christians need to accept the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

I would think so.

Mankind living in a earthen body of death are totally dead as powerless in trespass and sin, , without God in this present world.

Like with Lazarus lovingly commanded . . . Lazarus rise

The other option below. . . . .

Genesis3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[ReverendRV]

I would think so.

Mankind living in a earthen body of death are totally dead as powerless in trespass and sin, , without God in this present world.

Like with Lazarus lovingly commanded . . . Lazarus rise

The other option below. . . . .

Genesis3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Read on, this is where I'm going...

 

[David1701]

I think you missed the point I was speculating about .... not to worry ... not important.

No, but it IS important. If someone does not believe in cross of Christ, then he does not believe - full stop; and, it's not a matter of intellectual understanding (to head a possible objection off at the pass), but God-given faith, which does not rely upon our human understanding.

 

[TMSO]

Agreed.
Aside: I don't even think one MUST believe Christ was crucified to be saved. It would be very unusual to be a believer and not believe Christ was crucified but, is it essential to believe in His crucifixion for salvation? I sort of think NO. Maybe 1 Cor. 15:1-4 would be a text to prove me wrong.

That is nuance.

 

[fastfredy0]

If someone does not believe in cross of Christ, then he does not believe - full stop.

Well, I wrote a post in which the disciples of Christ were told directly by Christ that he was going to die and they DID NOT BELIEVE. How do you handle that. See Luke 18:31-34 (I think its in 2 other gospels). Are you saying Christ's disciples were not believers at that point. The following verse indicates they were believers before Christ's death: Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

So, a missionary tells someone all about Christ but doesn't tell him that Christ died. You are saying it is impossible for that person to be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 talks about salvation and mentioned Christ died and arose again in 3 days. If one doesn't know that Christ arose on the 3rd day you saying the person is doomed to hell? What if the person does know what the "3rd day" means (is it 72 hrs, or day of the week, or 3 calendar days), is he doomed to hell?
2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment]. 3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold], 4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

Jesus tells the woman in Luke 7:50 that her faith has saved her ... by default you are saying Christ told her about His death on the cross?


Anyways, your turn .... What specific details must one believe to be saved? I asked @ReverendRV to answer this question and he has declined to do so thus far. My guess is that if the two of you don't confer and are up to the challenge, you will come up with different answers even though both of you are knowledgeable on this eternal life and death subject.
Could your answer, if wrong, determine your eternal destiny? (aside: I think not, inserted for dramatic affect )

 

[ReverendRV]

Well, I wrote a post in which the disciples of Christ were told directly by Christ that he was going to die and they DID NOT BELIEVE. How⁹ do you handle that. See Luke 18:31-34 (I think its in 2 other gospels). Are you saying Christ's disciples were not believers at that point. The following verse indicates they were believers before Christ's death: Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

So, a missionary tells someone all about Christ but doesn't tell him that Christ died. You are saying it is impossible for that person to be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 talks about salvation and mentioned Christ died and arose again in 3 days. If one doesn't know that Christ arose on the 3rd day you saying the person is doomed to hell? What if the person does know what the "3rd day" means (is it 72 hrs, or day of the week, or 3 calendar days), is he doomed to hell?
2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment]. 3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold], 4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

Jesus tells the woman in Luke 7:50 that her faith has saved her ... by default you are saying Christ told her about His death on the cross?


Anyways, your turn .... What specific details must one believe to be saved? I asked @ReverendRV to answer this question and he has declined to do so thus far. My guess is that if the two of you don't confer and are up to the challenge, you will come up with different answers even though both of you are knowledgeable on this eternal life and death subject.
Could your answer, if wrong, determine your eternal destiny? (aside: I think not, inserted for dramatic affect )

There was a time I began writing Gospel Tracts, and asked a Preacher to critique them. He asked me where was the Resurrection in them; and I said, "Duh". I always at least include the one word 'Risen' now, if I don't mention more. Inherent in the Resurrection of Christ, is his Death; there's no Resurrection without it. I used to argue with Civic about Penal Substitutionary Atonement, to the point I believe the Crucifixion is crucial to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I often say in my Gospel Tracts, "Death, Burial and Resurrection"...

Luke 9:22; Then Jesus said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things. He will be rejected by the older Jewish leaders, the leading priests, and teachers of the law. And he will be killed. But after three days he will be raised from death.”

Is this the Gospel; "And he will be killed. But after three days he will be raised from death"? Ray Comfort's 'The Way of the Master' Evangelism Method includes the Bad News as a part of the Good News. This inclusion is probably what needs to be discussed here...

Is the Bad News of the Cross, actually Good News?

 

[fastfredy0]

There was a time I wrote Gospel Tracts, and asked a Preacher to critique them. He asked me where was the Resurrection in them; and I said, "Duh". I always at least include the one word 'Risen' now, if I don't mention more. Inherent in the Resurrection of Christ, is his Death; there's no Resurrection without it. I used to argue with Civic about Penal Substitutionary Atonement, to the point I believe the Crucifixion is crucial to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I often say in my Gospel Tracts, "the Death, Burial and Resurrection"...

Luke 9:22; Then Jesus said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things. He will be rejected by the older Jewish leaders, the leading priests, and teachers of the law. And he will be killed. But after three days he will be raised from death.”

Is this the Gospel; "And he will be killed. But after three days he will be raised from death"? Ray Comfort's 'The Way of the Master' Evangelism Method includes the Bad News as a part of the Good News. This inclusion is probably what needs to be discussed here...

I'm not arguing that the death and resurrection are/are not part of the good news or that they are not important or not part of the salvation message. I am arguing that it is possible IMO that knowing Christ died and rose again, though probably in the top most important 10 events known to man, are not needed to known to be saved though they sure are important and relevant. I gave a scriptural example of;
Premise1: Christ's disciples told by God that Christ would die, (Luke 18:31-34)
Premise 2: we know these disciples were saved at the time (John 6:68)
Premise 3: yet the same men did not believe Christ would die (Luke 18:31-34)
This was my possible proof that one does not need to believe Christ died to be saved (though it would be mighty unusual if that was the case). You didn't comment on this relevant salient logic. Aside: You also did not state what facts must be believed in order to be saved which is a tangential, yet interesting question ... not that there's a gun to your head to do so (giggle).

 

[ReverendRV]

I'm not arguing that the death and resurrection are/are not part of the good news or that they are not important or not part of the salvation message. I am arguing that it is possible IMO that knowing Christ died and rose again, though probably in the top most important 10 events known to man, are not needed to known to be saved though they sure are important and relevant. I gave a scriptural example of;
Premise1: Christ's disciples told by God that Christ would die, (Luke 18:31-34)
Premise 2: we know these disciples were saved at the time (John 6:68)
Premise 3: yet the same men did not believe Christ would die (Luke 18:31-34)
This was my possible proof that one does not need to believe Christ died to be saved (though it would be mighty unusual if that was the case). You didn't comment on this relevant salient logic. Aside: You also did not state what facts must be believed in order to be saved which is a tangential, yet interesting question ... not that there's a gun to your head to do so (giggle).

Ah, I see where you are going. I wouldn't say the Disciples were Saved until they were Born Again and Indwelt. They may have not even been Old Covenant Saints at the time. Whether they were or were not, like Lydia they needed to become New Covenant Saints...

Those Disciples wouldn't teach your Sylogism, they went on to teach, "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures..."

 

[ReverendRV]

This was my possible proof that one does not need to believe Christ died to be saved (though it would be mighty unusual if that was the case). You didn't comment on this relevant salient logic. Aside: You also did not state what facts must be believed in order to be saved which is a tangential, yet interesting question ... not that there's a gun to your head to do so (giggle).

Scripture Alone ~ by ReverendRV * September 17

Genesis 1:1 KJV; In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Through Faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”. So God created Man in his own image, in the image of God created him; male and female created he them. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the Garden thou may freely eat; but of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, a tree to be desired to make them wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her; and he ate it. At once they saw what they had done, and they realized they were naked. Then they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves. ~ For the wages of Sin is Death…

All that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world. ~ Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him and he began to teach them. He said: "You’ve heard the Commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.' but I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.” ~ For whoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it…

The wages of Sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal Life! ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory; Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. For by Grace you are Saved through Faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by Works so that no one can boast. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ~ I’ve passed on to you what is most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our Sins, just as the Scriptures said. He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said. The Lord will rescue us from every evil deed and will bring us safely to his Heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen…

Revelation 22:20-21 KJV; He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[David1701]

Well, I wrote a post in which the disciples of Christ were told directly by Christ that he was going to die and they DID NOT BELIEVE. How do you handle that. See Luke 18:31-34 (I think its in 2 other gospels). Are you saying Christ's disciples were not believers at that point. The following verse indicates they were believers before Christ's death: Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

That was under the Old Covenant (before the disciples had the indwelling Holy Spirit). We're in the New Covenant now.

So, a missionary tells someone all about Christ but doesn't tell him that Christ died. You are saying it is impossible for that person to be saved?

If a missionary omits to tell someone about the cross, then he's a useless missionary! The gospel is all about the cross and resurrection.

If someone has not heard the gospel, then he cannot be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 talks about salvation and mentioned Christ died and arose again in 3 days. If one doesn't know that Christ arose on the 3rd day you saying the person is doomed to hell? What if the person does know what the "3rd day" means (is it 72 hrs, or day of the week, or 3 calendar days), is he doomed to hell?
2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment]. 3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold], 4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

Why are you delving into details? Believing in the cross and resurrection are what matters, not whether it's three calendars days or two part days and one whole day, etc..

Jesus tells the woman in Luke 7:50 that her faith has saved her ... by default you are saying Christ told her about His death on the cross?

The cross had not happened yet! We are talking about what pertains in the New Covenant.

Anyways, your turn .... What specific details must one believe to be saved? I asked @ReverendRV to answer this question and he has declined to do so thus far. My guess is that if the two of you don't confer and are up to the challenge, you will come up with different answers even though both of you are knowledgeable on this eternal life and death subject.
Could your answer, if wrong, determine your eternal destiny? (aside: I think not, inserted for dramatic affect )

In a nutshell, we must believe that we are guilty sinners, that Jesus is God and man, shed his blood and died on the cross for our sins, that he rose from the dead and we must trust in Him.

 

[fastfredy0]

Ah, I see where you are going. I wouldn't say the Disciples were Saved until they were Born Again and Indwelt.

Interesting ... so extrapolating, no one was saved of the 1,000s of people that heard Christ until they were indwelt by the Spirit which happened at Pentecost. Gee, would really suck to die in that 3 year period and this is reason to not give a very good score for Christ when it came to His pre-pentecost evangelism by human standards. I grant that if you are correct that would invalid my premise #2: we know these disciples were saved at the time (John 6:68-70) 68 Simon Peter answered, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You [alone] have the words of eternal life [you are our only hope]. 69 We have believed and confidently trusted, and [even more] we have come to know [by personal observation and experience] that You are the Holy One of God [the Christ, the Son of the living God].” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve [disciples]? I guess Peter was lying/mistaken when he said "We have believed and confidently trusted that You are the Holy One of God".
I have to wonder what the motivation was for the disciples to follow Jesus while Jesus was on earth given they were not believers. Granted, these unbelievers (the disciples) did go about healing people of diseases while Christ was on earth. Seems funny to me that these disciples who didn't have saving faith had the ability to save people based on faith.
I disagree with you. I feel 11 of the 12 disciples had saving faith before Christ died. I grant that they were not indwelt by the Spirit till after Christ's death.

Those Disciples wouldn't teach your Sylogism,

Agreed. My syllogism was given to try to make my point "that one didn't need to believe Christ died in order to be saved" and not to be an evangelistic technique.

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: My request: You also did not state what facts must be believed in order to be saved which is a tangential, yet interesting question ... not that there's a gun to your head to do so (giggle).

Scripture Alone ~ by ReverendRV * September 17

Genesis 1:1 KJV; In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Through Faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”. So God created Man in his own image, in the image of God created him; male and female created he them. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the Garden thou may freely eat; but of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, a tree to be desired to make them wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her; and he ate it. At once they saw what they had done, and they realized they were naked. Then they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves. ~ For the wages of Sin is Death…

All that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world. ~ Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him and he began to teach them. He said: "You’ve heard the Commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.' but I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.” ~ For whoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it…

The wages of Sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal Life! ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory; Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. For by Grace you are Saved through Faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by Works so that no one can boast. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ~ I’ve passed on to you what is most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our Sins, just as the Scriptures said. He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said. The Lord will rescue us from every evil deed and will bring us safely to his Heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen…

Revelation 22:20-21 KJV; He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Wow ... so you believe that a person must believe everything in your response above in order to be saved? I think that's what your saying.