Is Total Depravity a required belief?

[ReverendRV]

Hmmm .... how is the Spirit's "indwelling" after Pentecost different than before?
Like, the Spirit is always omnipresent ... did He just help out a believer more after Pentecost than before?
Never pondered this before ...

The Spirit was upon them before Pentecost, but within us after Pentecost...

 

[fastfredy0]

The Spirit was upon them before Pentecost, but within us after Pentecost...

What is the definition of UPON and WITHIN? Where in scripture is this outlined?

 

[ReverendRV]

What is the definition of UPON and WITHIN? Where in scripture is this outlined?

It's outlined in Theology...

 

[makesends]

The Holy Spirit would come and go. If not to Regenerate, what for?

The Holy Spirit does as it will, and cannot be restrained.

However, to my mind, at least, regeneration IS from the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in us. It is not only us after it came and left. It remains in the believer.

Was thinking about doing a thread on this. Seems a lot of Calvinists/Reformed think the Holy Spirit wasn't a fixture until after Pentecost. But I don't see how anything we do, neither faith nor obedience, is done apart from his continuous work in us.

 

[fastfredy0]

Was thinking about doing a thread on this. Seems a lot of Calvinists/Reformed think the Holy Spirit wasn't a fixture until after Pentecost. But I don't see how anything we do, neither faith nor obedience, is done apart from his continuous work in us.

Agreed, and thus my question: how is the Spirit's "indwelling" after Pentecost different than before?

In him we live and breathe and have our being.
john 35 If God were to withdraw his Spirit, 15 all life would disappear and mankind would turn again to dust. (maybe that applies to only the New Covenant saints ... giggle)

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Nevertheless, you do agree, no?, that everybody —both the saved and the unsaved— has a theology.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! Mine is called Carabbianism. I've taught it to all my kids.

 

[atpollard]

Hmmm .... how is the Spirit's "indwelling" after Pentecost different than before?
Like, the Spirit is always omnipresent ... did He just help out a believer more after Pentecost than before?
Never pondered this before ...

Before: anointed (“Spirit came upon …”)
After: indwell (“We shall make our home in you …”)

 

[fastfredy0]

Before: anointed (“Spirit came upon …”)
After: indwell (“We shall make our home in you …”)

I still don't see much difference. In practical terms, how is a person's experience with the Spirit different pre and post Pentecost? Maybe an analogy?

Like, "in Him we live and breathe and have our being" ... He was/is the First cause before and after Pentecost. Christ said they would benefit if He left ... He didn't say how.

 

[atpollard]

What is the definition of UPON and WITHIN? Where in scripture is this outlined?

• OLD
• [1Sa 16:14 NIV] 14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
• [2Co 3:13 NLT] 13 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away.

• NEW
• [Jhn 14:23 NIV] 23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
• [2Co 1:22 NIV] 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
• [2Co 5:5 NIV] 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
• [2Ti 1:14 NIV] 14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you--guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

 

[atpollard]

I still don't see much difference. In practical terms, how is a person's experience with the Spirit different pre and post Pentecost? Maybe an analogy?

Like, "in Him we live and breathe and have our being" ... He was/is the First cause before and after Pentecost. Christ said they would benefit if He left ... He didn't say how.

Pre-Pentecost: Jesus would invite you over to His Father’s House for supper … you got to visit as a guest, but you don’t get to stay forever.

Post-Pentecost: Jesus’ Father adopts you and you and Jesus become brothers, forever.

BEFORE, you got to warm yourself in the glow of the Holy Spirit for “a while” and AFTER, the warmth of the Holy Spirit is a permanent part of you.

(How was that for an analogy?)

 

[fastfredy0]

[1Sa 16:14 NIV] 14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.

[Jhn 14:23 NIV] 23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

[2Co 1:22 NIV] 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

[2Co 5:5 NIV] 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

[2Ti 1:14 NIV] 14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you--guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

Hey, that was impressive ... how you came up with relevant verses.

My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

"in Him we live and breathe and have our being" ... He was/is the First cause before and after Pentecost.
It's not like anyone does not have the Spirit causing them to exist (John 34:14-15) no matter what the time period. It's not like God is not the First Cause of even an atheist. Best I can tell is the verses means God is in His kids (us) to benefit (everything worketh for good) whereas God is also the First Cause of an atheist but the benefits for said atheist are few.

 

[fastfredy0]

Pre-Pentecost: Jesus would invite you over to His Father’s House for supper … you got to visit as a guest, but you don’t get to stay forever.

Post-Pentecost: Jesus’ Father adopts you and you and Jesus become brothers, forever.

BEFORE, you got to warm yourself in the glow of the Holy Spirit for “a while” and AFTER, the warmth of the Holy Spirit is a permanent part of you.

(How was that for an analogy?)

I like that better ... giggle ... thx
So, in a nut shell ... the benefits after Pentecost are better.

 

[makesends]

Agreed, and thus my question: how is the Spirit's "indwelling" after Pentecost different than before?

In him we live and breathe and have our being.
john 35 If God were to withdraw his Spirit, 15 all life would disappear and mankind would turn again to dust. (maybe that applies to only the New Covenant saints ... giggle)

I don't think it does differ. Pentecost, like the sign gifts, was for the unbelievers to see; it wasn't the first indwelling.

 

[prism]

Do Christians need to accept the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

As in "Believe in Total Depravity and thou shalt be saved"?
or
John 8:24b NKJV
for if you do not believe in total depravity (that I am He) , you will die in your sins."?

No, usually that comes through exposure to the Word and the world.

 

[ReverendRV]

The Holy Spirit does as it will, and cannot be restrained.

However, to my mind, at least, regeneration IS from the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in us. It is not only us after it came and left. It remains in the believer.

Was thinking about doing a thread on this. Seems a lot of Calvinists/Reformed think the Holy Spirit wasn't a fixture until after Pentecost. But I don't see how anything we do, neither faith nor obedience, is done apart from his continuous work in us.

That's a great idea...

 

[Mr GLee]

So when it comes to salvation, faith in what Christ tells you about His dying is not a salvific detail to be believed in the Old Covenant times ... but this same lack of belief on the same detail can send you to hell in the New Covenant which inconveniently starts a Pentecost. I guess anything is possible. Do you have a verse to back that up?

Remember we had no faith that could please God as it is written comind the power of the father. We were powerless or faithless living in body of death

So when it comes to salvation it comes from faith the power of God that works in us. We receive this new born again faith from the first hearing the gospel . Christ's faith not of our own.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us

 

[Mr GLee]

The Holy Spirit would come and go. If not to Regenerate, what for?

The Holy Spirit does the regenerating. The coming and going if we sin . The Alfa Omega . The Just one and the justifier

In Philippians l:6 we are informed if he began the good teaching work in us yoked with him he will finish it . He is our confidence who comforts us with words like. . I will never leave or forsake you. Finishing is better than starting

Philippians l:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

If we sin we do quench its work of regenerating , But the idea of some to crucify him again, again to public shame as if one demonstration of the Father empowering the Son of man, Jesus was not enough

We are not saved dead works But by the living faith of Christ

Hebrews 6:1 King James Version Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Dead works dead faith

 

[Mr GLee]

Personally, After being a Born again Christian for the last 60 years, I don't know (in academic detail) what the "Calvinist Doctrine of Total depravity" is.

It doesn't take ANY DOCTRINES in order to become Born Again - that's a personal encounter between you and God through the Holy Spirit, who is the one who gets the ball rolling.

Once you're Born again, then there's plenty of time (generally) to mess with "theology".

Mess with theology by obeying the loving commandment to rightly divide or interpreter the word of God ? How else could we daily seek his approval?

By not studying our daily bread, the food the disciple knew not of?

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I think of the Bereans were moved

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[prism]

The Holy Spirit would come and go. If not to Regenerate, what for?

To convict the world.?

John 16:8 NASB95
And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

 

[ReverendRV]

To convict the world.?

John 16:8 NASB95
And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/was-the-spirit-of-god-indwelling-the-redeemed-before-pentecost.1291/post-50327

https://christcentered.community.fo...the-redeemed-before-pentecost.1291/post-50342