Is Total Depravity a required belief?

[fastfredy0]

That was under the Old Covenant (before the disciples had the indwelling Holy Spirit). We're in the New Covenant now.

So when it comes to salvation, faith in what Christ tells you about His dying is not a salvific detail to be believed in the Old Covenant times ... but this same lack of belief on the same detail can send you to hell in the New Covenant which inconveniently starts a Pentacost. I guess anything is possible. Do you have a verse to back that up?


Re: So, a missionary tells someone all about Christ but doesn't tell him that Christ died. You are saying it is impossible for that person to be saved?

If a missionary omits to tell someone about the cross, then he's a useless missionary! The gospel is all about the cross and resurrection.

The question I posed was not "what is the best evangelistic technique. I think you are answering YES to my question.

If someone has not heard the gospel, then he cannot be saved.

Well we agree about that. The crux of our discussion is whether or not knowing Christ died is a necessary detail of salvation. You know, you could just quote a verse to make your point. I did point out that 1 Cor. 15:1-4 might be used for your side of the argument.

Why are you delving into details?

Well, our discussion is about a particular detail being necessary for salvation. I was interested in your list of details that are required for salvation. I know you are knowledgeable ... so for such an eternally important question I thought you would have a ready answer.

In a nutshell, we must believe that we are guilty sinners, that Jesus is God and man, shed his blood and died on the cross for our sins, that he rose from the dead and we must trust in Him.

Thank you

 

[David1701]

So when it comes to salvation, faith in what Christ tells you about His dying is not a salvific detail to be believed in the Old Covenant times ... but this same lack of belief on the same detail can send you to hell in the New Covenant which inconveniently starts a Pentacost. I guess anything is possible. Do you have a verse to back that up?


Re: So, a missionary tells someone all about Christ but doesn't tell him that Christ died. You are saying it is impossible for that person to be saved?

The question I posed was not "what is the best evangelistic technique. I think you are answering YES to my question.



Well we agree about that. The crux of our discussion is whether or not knowing Christ died is a necessary detail of salvation. You know, you could just quote a verse to make your point. I did point out that 1 Cor. 15:1-4 might be used for your side of the argument.



Well, our discussion is about a particular detail being necessary for salvation. I was interested in your list of details that are required for salvation. I know you are knowledgeable ... so for such an eternally important question I thought you would have a ready answer.


Thank you

What do you believe the gospel message is (simplest form)? I ask this because I have NEVER come across a Christian asking if believing that Christ died for our sins is necessary for salvation. It's normally taken as a given.

 

[ReverendRV]

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance [a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

1st Corinthians NIV

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Do Christians need to accept the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

Personally, After being a Born again Christian for the last 60 years, I don't know (in academic detail) what the "Calvinist Doctrine of Total depravity" is.

It doesn't take ANY DOCTRINES in order to become Born Again - that's a personal encounter between you and God through the Holy Spirit, who is the one who gets the ball rolling.

Once you're Born again, then there's plenty of time (generally) to mess with "theology".

 

[makesends]

Personally, After being a Born again Christian for the last 60 years, I don't know (in academic detail) what the "Calvinist Doctrine of Total depravity" is.

It doesn't take ANY DOCTRINES in order to become Born Again - that's a personal encounter between you and God through the Holy Spirit, who is the one who gets the ball rolling.

Once you're Born again, then there's plenty of time (generally) to mess with "theology".

Nevertheless, you do agree, no?, that everybody —both the saved and the unsaved— has a theology.

 

[Arial]

I'm not arguing that the death and resurrection are/are not part of the good news or that they are not important or not part of the salvation message. I am arguing that it is possible IMO that knowing Christ died and rose again, though probably in the top most important 10 events known to man, are not needed to known to be saved though they sure are important and relevant. I gave a scriptural example of;
Premise1: Christ's disciples told by God that Christ would die, (Luke 18:31-34)
Premise 2: we know these disciples were saved at the time (John 6:68)
Premise 3: yet the same men did not believe Christ would die (Luke 18:31-34)
This was my possible proof that one does not need to believe Christ died to be saved (though it would be mighty unusual if that was the case). You didn't comment on this relevant salient logic. Aside: You also did not state what facts must be believed in order to be saved which is a tangential, yet interesting question ... not that there's a gun to your head to do so (giggle).

I think that to speculate about salvation before the crucifixion is something that cannot arrive at a definitive answer that will arrive at a yes, no answer about whether knowledge of the crucifixion is necessary. We know that salvation has always been through faith, and faith in the OT is full trust in God and a heart that seeks Him and no other God. Such as David. We know too that Christ was there with the Father.

And as you say there were believers in Jesus' day before He was crucified. But one thing about that is that He came to the Jews and it is the Jews who were expecting the Messiah. Those who had faith in Him knew He was Messiah and knew He was God---at least at some point. How much did they know? This is where we cannot say because we cannot see into their minds or hearts. But His crucifixion was prophesied in Is 53 and other places. And Jesus repeatedly chastise the Pharisees, saying they would know Him if they understood the Law and the Prophets for they tell about Him.

But after the crucifixion and resurrection, we have all the information revealed and the cross is central to Christianity. I can't imagine the gospel being preached without it. Nevertheless, as we Reformed know, it is God who gives the necessary faith for salvation, God who gathers His people and brings them to Christ. God who changes a person, bringing them to life, and only God who can see into a person's heart, and of course He would do this according to what mental capacity he has given them. I agree with @atpollard on this with the example of someone with Downs Syndrome. They may simply love Jesus---and that would be because He first loved them.

 

[fastfredy0]

I ask this because I have NEVER come across a Christian asking if believing that Christ died for our sins is necessary for salvation.

It's just a curiosity question. Many of the guys I've read don't believe there is a list of hard facts (or at least not a very long list), any one fact of which, if not believed, would doom a person to hell. There doesn't seem to be a set recipe as demonstrated by the numerous salvation recipes theologians have created. There's an interesting PDF by Rick Brown https://www.ijfm.org/PDFs_IJFM/17_4_PDFs/02_Brown_Beliefs_hw.pdf where he discusses the topic of what must be believed to be saved. I didn't come to exact same conclusion as him.

What do you believe the [salvific] gospel message is (simplest form)?

Saving faith is the belief that: Jesus is God, Lord, Savior and Christ Alone saves where:

God is ... this is difficult to define what must be believed about who God is in order to be saved ... but apparently one must believe Jesus is God.

• John 20:31 I write these things to you that you might believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in His name.
• 1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
• 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Savior is the belief He has the ability to forgive sins and make us righteous thus qualifying one for heaven

Lord is the one we trust; the effect of which is we obey, though imperfectly. (Lord also implying His resurrection as one does not serve a dead person.) Romans 10:9-10 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Christ Alone saves meaning that the belief that any work on your part independent of God’s causation nullifies salvation. Galatians 1:6-7, Galatians 5:2-6

Aside: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may indicate one must believe in the death and resurrection

 

[ReverendRV]

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance [a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

1st Corinthians NIV

We may be able to reduce the requirements even more; Saint Paul said he had determined to know only Christ and him Crucified. You have a point that we don't have to know a lot of things when it comes to the Gospel, and we can still be Saved. But if Saint Paul's determination is the minimum we must know, then this proves the Crucifixion is part of the Gospel...

@fastfredy0

 

[David1701]

It's just a curiosity question. Many of the guys I've read don't believe there is a list of hard facts (or at least not a very long list), any one fact of which, if not believed, would doom a person to hell. There doesn't seem to be a set recipe as demonstrated by the numerous salvation recipes theologians have created. There's an interesting PDF by Rick Brown https://www.ijfm.org/PDFs_IJFM/17_4_PDFs/02_Brown_Beliefs_hw.pdf where he discusses the topic of what must be believed to be saved. I didn't come to exact same conclusion as him.

Saving faith is the belief that: Jesus is God, Lord, Savior and Christ Alone saves where:

God is ... this is difficult to define what must be believed about who God is in order to be saved ... but apparently one must believe Jesus is God.

• John 20:31 I write these things to you that you might believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in His name.
• 1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
• 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Savior is the belief He has the ability to forgive sins and make us righteous thus qualifying one for heaven

Lord is the one we trust; the effect of which is we obey, though imperfectly. (Lord also implying His resurrection as one does not serve a dead person.) Romans 10:9-10 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Christ Alone saves meaning that the belief that any work on your part independent of God’s causation nullifies salvation. Galatians 1:6-7, Galatians 5:2-6

Aside: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may indicate one must believe in the death and resurrection

That's what I thought - you have omitted the heart of the gospel (the cross and resurrection).

Gospel means "good news", as I'm sure you know; however, what you might not know is that the Greek word translated "gospel" or "good news" referred to a great victory won by a general or emperor.

Jesus won his great victory on the cross and this was demonstrated by his resurrection; in other words, without the cross, there IS NO GOSPEL! You simply cannot believe the gospel without believing in the cross - it's impossible, since the gospel is all about Christ's victory on the cross, over sin, death and the devil.

1 Cor. 1:18 (KJV) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor. 1:21-25 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Gal. 6:14 (KJV) But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[fastfredy0]

We may be able to reduce the requirements even more; Saint Paul said he had determined to know only Christ and him Crucified. You have a point that we don't have to know a lot of things when it comes to the Gospel, and we can still be Saved. But if Saint Paul's determination is the minimum we must know, then this proves the Crucifixion is part of the Gospel...

Yeah, I mentioned 1 Cor. 15:1-4 as being evidence that one must believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. Paul also mentioned in those verses: "that he was raised on the third day". To be consistent one would also have to assert that one must have the knowledge that Christ was "raised on the third day" in order to be saved. It would suck to think Christ was raised on the 2nd or 4th day and end up in hell. It's nuances like this that make people think "Faith consists more of certainty that “Christ is Lord and Savior” rather than “discernment of facts” and thus maybe the fact the Christ died is not necessary (though highly improbable). Anyways, that my 50 cents worth.

 

[ReverendRV]

Yeah, I mentioned 1 Cor. 15:1-4 as being evidence that one must believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. Paul also mentioned in those verses: "that he was raised on the third day". To be consistent one would also have to assert that one must have the knowledge that Christ was "raised on the third day" in order to be saved. It would suck to think Christ was raised on the 2nd or 4th day and end up in hell. It's nuances like this that make people think "Faith consists more of certainty that “Christ is Lord and Savior” rather than “discernment of facts” and thus maybe the fact the Christ died is not necessary (though highly improbable). Anyways, that my 50 cents worth.

The Salvation Equation ~ by ReverendRV * November 9

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV; For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast

I often find people wondering what the fundamentals of the Gospel are; what is the minimum a person must believe in order to be a Christian? My study on the Gospel of Jesus Christ has led me to believe that ‘like a fraction’, there is a “lowest common denominator” wherein all the Righteous requirements of the Gospel can be rounded down to; this is the ‘Salvation Equation’. The Apostle Paul teaches us that the lowest common denominator is [Grace + Faith – Works = Salvation]. ~ But the main reason that I am writing this Gospel Tract is for those who know that the Apostle James says without Works, Faith is dead. Some use this as a reason not to believe the Bible because it seems to be an apparent contradiction! You ask, “Why would you call it an apparent contradiction, isn’t it self evident that it is a contradiction?” ~ It is not; let me explain…

Paul describes Biblical Works for us in two Verses; one in the negative “not by Works” and the other in the positive “works which we were created for”. Confusion about this is because we commit the Logical Fallacy of making a Category Mistake. Paul draws a distinction between good works and bad Works; those who are confused think there is only one category of Works. We do it all the time, an example of this is that the Bible says our personal righteousness is like a Filthy Rag. We are like a child who dusts his mother’s dining room table with his father’s grease rag; good intentions do not a good work make. Good Works are made from Faith; if they ever have their origins in the ‘not by Works’ factor, then the Bible says that Grace is no longer Grace. The Salvation Equation is irreducibly complex; like a mousetrap, remove its base and all remaining parts are useless to us. ~ Have you ever had an excuse because of a contradiction in the Bible? Then you’ve broken the first Commandment not to have another God first and foremost in your life. Having ‘no God’ puts everything before him in your life. All the good things you’ve done will never outweigh this Sin, the Bible says that our Works will be tested by fire; just how quickly will this greasy rag ignite and alight the rest of your Works?? God sends Sinners to an eternal Hell…

The works we were created for are in the Salvation Equation; but they are in its ‘Faith factor’. Having a lowest common denominator does not mean that there isn’t more to the good news of the Gospel. We are to Repent of our Sins; put God first in your life! This is done by God’s good Graces, through Faith in the risen Jesus Christ as our Savior. Through Faith, confess Christ as Lord, repent and find a Bible believing Church who will help you learn to put your Faith to work. ~ Take your Bible and read from Hebrews 11; make a list of all the verbs and put the word ‘Faith’ in front of them and you will see that indeed, Faith does work. ~ But since Biblically there is a distinction between our ‘Works’, never ever try to merit your Salvation; the Just shall live by Faith! The Prophet Isaiah said that God looks at the Works that Jesus preformed while here on Earth and is Satisfied. Jesus satisfied the Righteous requirements of the Mosaic Law for us and James knew this! That is why James taught that Faith keeps the Royal Law instead; and without those works; Faith is dead. Faith with Works is about doing right; not about being made Right…

James 2:8 KJV; If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

 

[fastfredy0]

That's what I thought - you have omitted the heart of the gospel (the cross and resurrection).

Yes, by your definition I have omitted the "heart of the gospel". It's not like I would omit it if I was evangelizing. It is very important. I just not positive it is necessary knowledge for salvation.

Gospel means "good news", as I'm sure you know; however, what you might not know is that the Greek word translated "gospel" or "good news" referred to a great victory won by a general or emperor.

“The Gospel” is an ambiguous term for it has a different meaning to each person. The word gospel means “good news”, but the contents of the good news varies from person to person.

In new testament terms the gospel is the proclamation of the person and work of Jesus Christ plus how the benefits of that work can be appropriated to us by saving faith and saving faith alone. R.C. Sproul

The Gospel of the kingdom: The kingdom over which Christ will rule for 1,000 years. 2 Samuel 7:16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’” The kingdom is spoken of by John the Baptist, Christ and his disciples and ending with the Jewish rejection of the King. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 3:1-2; Matthew 4:17; Matthew 10:5-7)
The Gospel of the Grace of God: This is the good news that Jesus Christ, the rejected King, has died on the cross for the sins of the world, that he was raised from the dead for our justification, and that by Him all that believe are justified from all things.

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

"The gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24)

The gospel of “peace” (Ephesians 6:15; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Acts 10:36)

Jesus won his great victory on the cross and this was demonstrated by his resurrection; in other words, without the cross, there IS NO GOSPEL!

Agreed. My point is that there are many, many parts of the Gospel without with you have no gospel. My point is that the lack of knowledge on some points of the gospel does not mean someone is bound for hell. My point is that ascertaining which points are needed for salvation is not easily defined; often the bible just says you must believe to be saved and no more ... or scripture can be confusing like when it says you must believe and be baptized to be saved.

You simply cannot believe the gospel without believing in the cross - it's impossible,

Well, I pointed out that the disciples didn't believe Christ when He said He would die ... you believe that not salvific because of the time period (though that is an assumption).

1 Cor. 1:18 (KJV) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Good point. Many of the things God does people think is foolishness, but those that are saved think it is the power of God. .... like, hmmm, Christ healing lepers ... non Christians don't believe lepers were healed and Christians who are saved believe it is the power of God.

1 Cor. 1:21-25 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Gal. 6:14 (KJV) But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Personally, I think 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is your best verses and reason for me to have doubts about my side of the debate. When we get to heaven you can come up to me and say "I told you so".

I'll give you the Last Word is you like

 

[David1701]

Yes, by your definition I have omitted the "heart of the gospel". It's not like I would omit it if I was evangelizing. It is very important. I just not positive it is necessary knowledge for salvation.


“The Gospel” is an ambiguous term for it has a different meaning to each person. The word gospel means “good news”, but the contents of the good news varies from person to person.

In new testament terms the gospel is the proclamation of the person and work of Jesus Christ plus how the benefits of that work can be appropriated to us by saving faith and saving faith alone. R.C. Sproul

The Gospel of the kingdom: The kingdom over which Christ will rule for 1,000 years. 2 Samuel 7:16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’” The kingdom is spoken of by John the Baptist, Christ and his disciples and ending with the Jewish rejection of the King. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 3:1-2; Matthew 4:17; Matthew 10:5-7)
The Gospel of the Grace of God: This is the good news that Jesus Christ, the rejected King, has died on the cross for the sins of the world, that he was raised from the dead for our justification, and that by Him all that believe are justified from all things.

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

"The gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24)

The gospel of “peace” (Ephesians 6:15; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Acts 10:36)


Agreed. My point is that there are many, many parts of the Gospel without with you have no gospel. My point is that the lack of knowledge on some points of the gospel does not mean someone is bound for hell. My point is that ascertaining which points are needed for salvation is not easily defined; often the bible just says you must believe to be saved and no more ... or scripture can be confusing like when it says you must believe and be baptized to be saved.





Well, I pointed out that the disciples didn't believe Christ when He said He would die ... you believe that not salvific because of the time period (though that is an assumption).



Good point. Many of the things God does people think is foolishness, but those that are saved think it is the power of God. .... like, hmmm, Christ healing lepers ... non Christians don't believe lepers were healed and Christians who are saved believe it is the power of God.



Personally, I think 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is your best verses and reason for me to have doubts about my side of the debate. When we get to heaven you can come up to me and say "I told you so".

I'll give you the Last Word is you like

I have absolutely no doubts that the preaching and believing of the cross is essential for salvation. I do have doubts about anyone who thinks otherwise.

 

[atpollard]

I have absolutely no doubts that the preaching and believing of the cross is essential for salvation. I do have doubts about anyone who thinks otherwise.

So just for the record, absolutely NOBODY that lived and died prior to the resurrection was saved …
(that is the problem with man-made rules about what GOD cannot do).

 

[ReverendRV]

So just for the record, absolutely NOBODY that lived and died prior to the resurrection was saved …
(that is the problem with man-made rules about what GOD cannot do).

They were Saved under the Old Covenant by it's Gospel. They were Regenerated but not Indwelt. The Pharisees who lived before and after the Resurrection, who didn't mix their Covenant with Faith; we're not Saved. Faith has always been the Gift of God, even then...

 

[atpollard]

They were Saved under the Old Covenant by it's Gospel. They were Regenerated but not Indwelt. The Pharisees who lived before and after the Resurrection, who didn't mix their Covenant with Faith; we're not Saved. Faith has always been the Gift of God, even then...

I agree. Those that claim that all salvation requires FAITH and SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE would appear to disagree. Those that have doubts about anyone claiming to be a “Christian” that disagrees with their insistence on salvation requiring SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE … would appear to disagree emphatically!

 

[makesends]

They were Saved under the Old Covenant by it's Gospel. They were Regenerated but not Indwelt. The Pharisees who lived before and after the Resurrection, who didn't mix their Covenant with Faith; we're not Saved. Faith has always been the Gift of God, even then...

How were they regenerated if not indwelt?

 

[ReverendRV]

How were they regenerated if not indwelt?

The Holy Spirit would come and go. If not to Regenerate, what for?

 

[ReverendRV]

The Holy Spirit would come and go. If not to Regenerate, what for?

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

 

[fastfredy0]

How were they regenerated if not indwelt?

Hmmm .... how is the Spirit's "indwelling" after Pentecost different than before?
Like, the Spirit is always omnipresent ... did He just help out a believer more after Pentecost than before?
Never pondered this before ...