Is Total Depravity a required belief?

[ReverendRV]

Do Christians need to accept the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

 

[makesends]

Do Christians need to accept the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

Do they need to accept it in order to be saved? Certainly not. If it was necessary then none would be saved, because none really understand the depth and width of the space between us and God. Saving faith is not our product, but the product of the Holy Spirit, who knows God completely. We don't. Our intelligent informed understanding of nothing qualifies us for Salvation.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Do Christians need to accept the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

By extension, why not include Christians accepting the doctrine of TULIP?

Unless of course, Total Depravity does not mean Total Inability to believe the gospel.

 

[ReverendRV]

By extension, why not include Christians accepting the doctrine of TULIP?

Unless of course, Total Depravity does not mean Total Inability to believe the gospel.

This is kind of where I'm going; but not yet...

First, do we need to Conflate Total Depravity with Original Sin and Fallenness?

 

[makesends]

This is kind of where I'm going; but not yet...

First, do we need to Conflate Total Depravity with Original Sin and Fallenness?

Before I can answer that, I still don't know if you mean necessary for Salvation, or what. —"NEED", you say. Need, to what end?

 

[ReverendRV]

Before I can answer that, I still don't know if you mean necessary for Salvation, or what. "NEED", you say. Need, to what end?

I mean to be Saved, we need to know we're Lost Sinners...

 

[makesends]

I mean to be Saved, we need to know we're Lost Sinners...

OK. But it can be not much more than a feeling, a being convinced, or even merely convicted. The most clinically disabled mind can do it.

Total Depravity may aptly describe the facts, but to agree to it as stated or explained is not what is demanded by God. I think it is a matter of the heart, not the brain.

 

[ReverendRV]

OK. But it can be not much more than a feeling, a being convinced, or even merely convicted. The most clinically disabled mind can do it.

Total Depravity may aptly describe the facts, but to agree to it as stated or explained is not what is demanded by God. I think it is a matter of the heart, not the brain.

Ray Comfort realized the Law is needed to Convict the Lost, right?

 

[makesends]

Ray Comfort realized the Law is needed to Convict the Lost, right?

I've heard the name. I don't know where you're going with this. What has that to do with the OP? Are you saying that one must necessarily be aware of their own failure to live up the righteousness of the law? I.e., that it must be that specific to understand their need for redemption?

 

[ReverendRV]

I've heard the name. I don't know where you're going with this. What has that to do with the OP? Are you saying that one must necessarily be aware of their own failure to live up the righteousness of the law? I.e., that it must be that specific to understand their need for redemption?

By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the Law is the knowledge of Sin...

More or less I'm asking if the knowledge of our Sin, is necessary for Salvation?

 

[makesends]

By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin...

More or less I'm asking if the knowledge of our Sin, is necessary for Salvation?

It is necessary for repentance. It may well be necessary for mental apprehension of what Christ has done for us, but the faith through which we are saved is not derived by our understanding. The case could probably be made that it would more accurately be said that 'comprehension' of our sinfulness is more to the point than our understanding of our sinfulness. Our understanding always must fall short, but the conviction by the Spirit is a category thing, and not a degree thing. The horror and pain and sorrow in sinfulness is all there in conviction, but the degree of it, none of us will know until we see him as he is.

 

[ReverendRV]

It is necessary for repentance. It may well be necessary for mental apprehension of what Christ has done for us, but the faith through which we are saved is not derived by our understanding. The case could probably be made that it would more accurately be said that 'comprehension' of our sinfulness is more to the point than our understanding of our sinfulness. Our understanding always must fall short, but the conviction by the Spirit is a category thing, and not a degree thing. The horror and pain and sorrow in sinfulness is all there in conviction, but the degree of it, none of us will know until we see him as he is.

Combine this with our not being Saved by Meritorious Works. Now we need the knowledge of Sin as necessary for Salvation, and we have the hopelessness of never being Saved by Works; right?

None of what I'm saying is opposed to Calvinism. You needed to know you are a Sinner to be Saved; right?

 

[makesends]

Combine this with our not being Saved by Meritorious Works. Now we have the knowledge of Sin necessary for Salvation, and we have the hopelessness of never being Saved by Works; right?

Amen that!

 

[ReverendRV]

Amen that!

These are the stepping stones to proving Total Depravity to All Christians...

 

[PeanutGallery]

These are the stepping stones to proving Total Depravity to All Christians...

I agree that we are totally depraved and cannot save ourselves; that is a description of man's state, but does not entail a category label of Total Depravity which is a theological distinction.
The Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin which leads one to either repent or reject the truth.

 

[ReverendRV]

I agree that we are totally depraved and cannot save ourselves; that is a description of man's state, but does not entail a category label of Total Depravity which is a theological distinction.
The Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin which leads one to either repent or reject the truth.

Thanks for agreeing Total Depravity is true, although you don't agree it should be a Doctrine

Do you agree the knowledge of Sin, is necessary to be Saved?

 

[PeanutGallery]

Thanks for agreeing Total Depravity is true, although you don't agree it should be a Doctrine

I agree total depravity is true, not that Total Depravity in TULIP is true.

Do you agree the knowledge of Sin, is necessary to be Saved?

Knowledge that we are sinners is necessary to be saved.
1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[Mr GLee]

This is kind of where I'm going; but not yet...

First, do we need to Conflate Total Depravity with Original Sin and Fallenness?

Compared to salvation we are saved by the fullness of Christ grace the whole cost .

The same applies to the unbelievers .Not a remnant of depravity but the whole .

 

[Arial]

Do Christians need to accept the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

I don't believe so but I think without it one never quite fathom the glory of God or our where we stand before Him. I think without it the Christian life and understanding of the word begin and stay, man centered.

 

[Manfred]

More or less I'm asking if the knowledge of our Sin, is necessary for Salvation?

When convicted by the Spirit at that moment of conversion, you are acutely aware of your utter need of redemption because of your sin.
You are "cut to the heart" This leads to repentance.

Before that moment, you were quite content with your sin.

Ray's evangelism "technique" showcases this very clearly. It is however the power of the Spirit of God that brings conviction when he [Ray] evangelizes.
Those who do not "hear" or are not convicted, are not stronger than the power of God, rather their minds/hearts are not opened by God to understanding.