How Are We Saved?

[ReverendRV]

No as a Christian.

I say I can defend Traditionalism better than your average Provisionist. I'm just on the other side of the Fence...

 

[civic]

I say I can defend Traditionalism better than your average Provisionist. I'm just on the other side of the Fence...

I’ll check in this afternoon, off the pebble beach to play golf ️ with my brother and old high school friends

 

[ChristB4us]

@Sheila3 Feel free to share any scripture for your choices of #1, & #4 & # & # 8 in the votes in the poll,

Thanks in advance.

BTW I just voted for #1

#4 is problematic because of ;

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

It took a while for the Lord to get thru to me to deliver me from looking to myself in doing the best I can in keeping my commitment to just rest in Him in His New Covenant to me in always relying on Him that He will help me to follow Him as the Good Shepherd He is.

Trust is the basis for all relationships and so I believe that is why it is written that the just shall live by faith.

#6 James's word about "faith without works" is dead is about how the church was neglecting the poor by how they verbalize faith in God to the poor that God will provide to the poor without leading by example to the poor by meeting their immediate needs of those about to perish from the elements and starvation. That is why the church's faith in God to provide will not "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor for why the church's faith in God to provide is dead in the eyes of the poor.

So whoever taught you that has to see the scripture below for how the scriptures reproves them for applying James words as if towards that faith in Jesus Christ as it is without works for how salvation has come by the grace of God thru faith in Jess Christ.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2;8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

#8 Sinners need to know that Jesus can turn them away from their sins, to destroy the work of the devil in their lives and so they can come to him and hope in Him for that too & not just for eternal life.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.... 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Just sharing why I only picked #1.

May God bless you & keep you. May He shine His face upon you & give you His peace.

 

[Manfred]

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

ESV
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

American Standard Version for Galatians 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

NKJ
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

There is a difference between faith unto belief, and faithfulness:
Barnes:
Faith - On the meaning of the word faith, see the note at Mark 16:16. The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man, a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. It is probable that the word is used in this sense because the object of the apostle is not to speak of the feelings which we have toward God so much as to illustrate the influences of the Spirit in directing and controlling our feelings toward people. True religion makes a man faithful. The Christian is faithful as a man; faithful as a neighbor, friend, father, husband, son. He is faithful to his contracts; faithful to his promises. No man can be a Christian who is not thus faithful, and all pretensions to being under the influences of the Spirit when such fidelity does not exist, are deceitful and vain.

Galatians 5 Barnes' Notes

biblehub.com

 

[Manfred]

Nope. Scripture plainly testifies the Father doing this drawing & giving us to the Son.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Flesh it out more and see exactly how the Holy Spirit will convict of sin.


No offense at all when correcting one another in Christ's love. It is His ministry in iron sharpening iron as we will give the Lord the credit.

God the Holy Spirit brings conviction of sin.

When we testify of Jesus it is by the Spirit of prophesy.
God the Father sent the Spirit to convict the world.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The drawing done by God the Father is through the work of the Spirit of God the Father.
Try not to create two entities.

 

[ChristB4us]

ESV
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

American Standard Version for Galatians 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

NKJ
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

There is a difference between faith unto belief, and faithfulness:
Barnes:
Faith - On the meaning of the word faith, see the note at Mark 16:16. The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man, a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. It is probable that the word is used in this sense because the object of the apostle is not to speak of the feelings which we have toward God so much as to illustrate the influences of the Spirit in directing and controlling our feelings toward people. True religion makes a man faithful. The Christian is faithful as a man; faithful as a neighbor, friend, father, husband, son. He is faithful to his contracts; faithful to his promises. No man can be a Christian who is not thus faithful, and all pretensions to being under the influences of the Spirit when such fidelity does not exist, are deceitful and vain.

Galatians 5 Barnes' Notes

biblehub.com

Well between the KJV, NKJV & the ESV, for the ESV, in order to have faithfulness, you have to have faith so I see no difference other than I would go with the KJV since all the other fruit of the Spirit are not extrapolated as such as faith was to mean faithfulness in the ESV.

One could confuse & misapply that verse in the ESV as the faithfulness of the believer as if looking to the believer for that when faith is a fruit of the Spirit for why we look to Jesus Christ to supply it when we are going trough hard times.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Especially when we are having doubts when being overwhelmed in a crisis, thus adding to it, a crisis of faith;

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 

[ChristB4us]

God the Holy Spirit brings conviction of sin.

When we testify of Jesus it is by the Spirit of prophesy.
God the Father sent the Spirit to convict the world.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The drawing done by God the Father is through the work of the Spirit of God the Father.
Try not to create two entities.

Scripture plainly credits the Father as doing the drawing. The only time a sinner gets the Holy Ghost is when at the hearing of the gospel for how faith which is the fruit of the Spirit & the holy Spirit came at their born again of the Spirit moment at their salvation.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

So it is about recognizing the role of the Holy Spirit in relation to the Father's will and then to the Son.

When Jesus was on earth, the role of the Holy Spirit was to be as the Spirit of the Father in bearing testimony of His Son.

Now Jesus is in Heaven, the role of the holy Spirit is to be the Spirit of Christ and still bearing the witness of the Son.

All that the Holy Spirit says and does is to bring glory to the Son. The Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ defers all credit & glory for all that the Holy Spirit does as the Spirit of Christ TO the Son.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So yes, the Holy Spirit was at work as the Spirit of the Father in doing His as an added Witness to the Father to bear testimony of the Son to glorify the Son while Jesus was on earth and still doing it since Jesus Christ has ascended to Heaven in being the Spirit of Christ.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So the witness of the holy Spirit's was added to the witness of the Father from heaven regarding His Son to make the Father's witness true.

Matthew 3:15 is Jesus citing a prophesy as that righteousness that was to be fulfilled in Isaiah below of the Lord God ( the Father ) and His Spirit sent God the Redeemer.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

 

[Josheb]

Jesus inferred numerous times it was “ their “ faith that saved them . Not the faith that He gave them so they would be saved or healed.

Inferences can never contradict what is stated explicitly.

This has always been a problem with synergism. It is only inferential. All of the synergistic soteriologies asserting the causal volitional agency of the sinner's will are only inferential. They do not have ANY explicit statements stating, "the sinner's will is causal," or "the will of the sinful flesh is causal." Volitionalists infer that reading and they do so solely based upon an eisegetic reading of the text because there are no verses explicitly stating that position. The infer implications. They do so in direct opposition to what is explicitly stated where God is the causal agent. It is God who works in us, it is God's grace that saves, God's grace is an absolute action, He has mercy on those upon whom He has mercy without any regard to how the person will or works, it is God who adds to those numbered in Christ. God! God! God! There are many of these verses. They do not require any inferences. No implications need be read into them.

Jesus inferred numerous times it was “ their “ faith that saved them . Not the faith that He gave them so they would be saved or healed.

Jesus did not infer any such thing. To infer he inferred things not actually stated would mean he contradicted a plethora of other verses in which God, not the sinner and his sinful flesh, is asserted as the causal agent.

Give the New Testament another read, and this time make a conscious effort NOT to read in any inferences other than "God is the causal agent" because that is stated many times in scripture. Read any and all implications of causality as God's and not the sinful flesh's.

 

[Josheb]

Just asking if you had ever been in a conversation about that correct wording of 1 Corinthians 1:18 because if you did, then it has bearing in our discussion since they were trying to rationalize modern Bibles for having it as "are being saved" from the KJV's "are saved" as the KJV had it wrong as it was ongoing sanctification and not justification in regards to salvation. I had come across this teaching several times in trying to refute the KJV's about justification, sanctification, and glorification.

So if you had not, & God and you only know the truth if you had not, then I reckon it would be a red herring to you, but it would be interesting to see how you would respond to that.

What's the topic of this op?

It is your op, after all. Isn't the op about how the not-saved become saved? Is it now your intent to change the subject away from the not-saved and how the not-saved are saved to the already-saved and how the already-saved are being saved? 1 Corinthians 1:18 is about the already saved, NOT the not-yet saved.

 

[ChristB4us]

What's the topic of this op?

It is your op, after all. Isn't the op about how the not-saved become saved? Is it now your intent to change the subject away from the not-saved and how the not-saved are saved to the already-saved and how the already-saved are being saved? 1 Corinthians 1:18 is about the already saved, NOT the not-yet saved.

Well, how are we saved will be deferring from how we are not saved by.

Like some will refer to James words of faith without works; which is one of the choices in the poll;

Transferring a post from the amended poll one to this reply for case in point.

The commands are repent and believe.

And yet there are verses where it just says believe like John 3:15-18 Nary a word about repentance.

So look at the gospel presentation given by Peter to the Gentiles;

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Where is repent in that? Then look at this same Peter preaching the same gospel to the Jews because it has to be the same.

Acts 2: 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Where is believe in Him for the remission of sins? We know it is not done by water baptism because the gentiles had received the remission of sins and the Holy Ghost before water baptism.

So I say it is the same gospel because Peter saying repent to the Jews that had crucified Jesus Christ "in unbelief" was asking them to repent from unbelief for why they had crucified Jesus Christ thus by believing in Him is for the remission of sins. That is the same gospel.

James 2:
19 You believe that [a]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

James was rebuking a church that was disrespecting the poor starting from the beginning of that second chapter in giving favorable seatings to the rich and despising the poor by having them sit on the floor.

This church went further by announcing their faith in God to provide for the poor to get out of helping the poor for why the church's faith in God to provide for the poor will not "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor from the elements and starvation for why in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God to provide for the poor is "dead".

James is not talking about the faith in Jesus Christ which is without works but rather the church's willful neglect of the poor by getting out of helping the poor by giving a parting benediction as if by saying be warm & be filled to the poor, the poor will have faith that God will do it.

James even bothered to cite Abraham & Isaac in what kind of faith that James was talking about in God providing.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

The name of the place Abraham called it, is the moral of the story & this the faith in God to provide of what James is referencing for.

James was never referring to the faith in Jesus Christ requiring works.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Works has nothing to do with salvation. Maintaining good works is profitable unto men but not a requirement for salvation or evidence of salvation when unbelievers do good works too.

 

[Manfred]

Well between the KJV, NKJV & the ESV, for the ESV, in order to have faithfulness, you have to have faith so I see no difference other than I would go with the KJV since all the other fruit of the Spirit are not extrapolated as such as faith was to mean faithfulness in the ESV.

One could confuse & misapply that verse in the ESV as the faithfulness of the believer as if looking to the believer for that when faith is a fruit of the Spirit for why we look to Jesus Christ to supply it when we are going trough hard times.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Especially when we are having doubts when being overwhelmed in a crisis, thus adding to it, a crisis of faith;

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Why did you ignore Barnes who did his exposition from the KJV?

You have made your mind up and will not accept correction.
I will leave you to it.

 

[Manfred]

Scripture plainly credits the Father as doing the drawing. The only time a sinner gets the Holy Ghost is when at the hearing of the gospel for how faith which is the fruit of the Spirit & the holy Spirit came at their born again of the Spirit moment at their salvation.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

So it is about recognizing the role of the Holy Spirit in relation to the Father's will and then to the Son.

When Jesus was on earth, the role of the Holy Spirit was to be as the Spirit of the Father in bearing testimony of His Son.

Now Jesus is in Heaven, the role of the holy Spirit is to be the Spirit of Christ and still bearing the witness of the Son.

All that the Holy Spirit says and does is to bring glory to the Son. The Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ defers all credit & glory for all that the Holy Spirit does as the Spirit of Christ TO the Son.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So yes, the Holy Spirit was at work as the Spirit of the Father in doing His as an added Witness to the Father to bear testimony of the Son to glorify the Son while Jesus was on earth and still doing it since Jesus Christ has ascended to Heaven in being the Spirit of Christ.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So the witness of the holy Spirit's was added to the witness of the Father from heaven regarding His Son to make the Father's witness true.

Matthew 3:15 is Jesus citing a prophesy as that righteousness that was to be fulfilled in Isaiah below of the Lord God ( the Father ) and His Spirit sent God the Redeemer.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

You grieve the Holy Spirit by making Him powerless.

 

[ChristB4us]

Why did you ignore Barnes who did his exposition from the KJV?

I rather rely on the Lord for His wisdom in understanding scriptures rather than commentaries because they are not always right.

You have made your mind up and will not accept correction.
I will leave you to it.

But what correction is that? To assign the fruit of the Spirit as if it is a fruit of the believer when that verse is about what the fruit of the Spirit are?

I am not saying the ESV has it wrong but that is not what Galatians 5:22-23 is about when opposing the works of the flesh prior.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. KJV

Galatians 5:19 Now (A)the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, (B)divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that (C)those who do[b] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But (D)the fruit of the Spirit is (E)love, joy, peace, patience, (F)kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 (G)gentleness, (H)self-control; (I)against such things there is no law. ESV

I am not saying Barne's application of the fruit of the Spirit are wrong for attributing them to the abiding believer's character, but for what the scripture is talking about the fruit of the Spirit for as opposing the subject of what the works of the flesh are.

I just do not believe the ESV kept in line with the topic in regards to opposing what the works of the flesh are for why Barnes's commentary is off.

 

[Manfred]

I rather rely on the Lord for His wisdom in understanding scriptures rather than commentaries because they are not always right.

yet you think yourself right, and refuse to read the commentary from someone like Barnes.

 

[ChristB4us]

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

You grieve the Holy Spirit by making Him powerless.

Actually the Holy Spirit is testifying of the Father for when Christ was on earth & now the Son Whom has ascended to Heaven for why the Holy Spirit is deferring credit & glory from Himself of all that He does and says.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That is what the Holy Spirit does in leading us to bear witness in that same manner.

He will not lead believers to bear witness of Himself to glorify Himself in worship, prayer, or fellowship when He is deferring all of it now to the Son and by Him, God the Father.

We have to be careful for how we witness about ourselves because of this also applies to us.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God..... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

A lot of believers professing themselves "Calvinists" or "Arminians" should repent.

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit is the perfect divine Witness and is God, but He defers credit & glory to the Son now in being the Spirit of Christ as in that Witness of Christ.

So I am not grieving the Holy Spirit when He is leading me by the scripture to do what He is doing.

 

[ChristB4us]

yet you think yourself right, and refuse to read the commentary from someone like Barnes.

Well, what if Barnes and his commentary did not exist or was not available?

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth....

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Are we not to prove everything by the scriptures with Jesus Christ; even Barnes' commentary?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

I shall pray for you, brother, that you will rely on Jesus Christ for wisdom in understanding scripture more than on men by their commentaries.

May God bless you & keep you. May He shine His face upon you & give you His peace.

 

[Manfred]

Actually the Holy Spirit is testifying of the Father for when Christ was on earth & now the Son Whom has ascended to Heaven for why the Holy Spirit is deferring credit & glory from Himself of all that He does and says.

You did not respond to what I pointed out.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

[civic]

Well, what if Barnes and his commentary did not exist or was not available?

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth....

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Are we not to prove everything by the scriptures with Jesus Christ; even Barnes' commentary?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

I shall pray for you, brother, that you will rely on Jesus Christ for wisdom in understanding scripture more than on men by their commentaries.

May God bless you & keep you. May He shine His face upon you & give you His peace.

Are you saying you do not own any commentaries, christian books, bible dictionaries etc ?

 

[civic]

I rather rely on the Lord for His wisdom in understanding scriptures rather than commentaries because they are not always right.

While that is true since no human can be 100% right about what they believe in the bible we can glean understanding from those who know the original languages of the bible and the times, places, culture of the bible.

Are you saying seminary has no value ?

Also do you believe what you believe is 100% correct ?

 

[Manfred]

Well, what if Barnes and his commentary did not exist or was not available?

God would have used someone else to guide us in not being tossed around by every wind of doctrine.

Barnes was better gifted than me in showing that Faith as rendered in Gal 5:20 is not the faith you are referring to.

Your eyes are closed to that