How Are We Saved?

[Josheb]

I have to disagree with that. Justification is salvation.

Nope. Justification is a legal term and that is all it is. All scripture is saying when it uses that term is that a person has legal standing, NOT salvation. I encourage you to study this because scripture asserts several means of justification. For example, we are justified by Christ's blood (Romans 5:9). Christ's blood justifies us, not just our faith in his blood. Christ blood justified us before anyone ever believed in that blood.

Yet no one was saved.

Justification is not synonymous with salvation. That's like saying a lug not is a car, or a carburetor is a lawnmower. Donald Trump was impeached after he left office. In other words, the moment he left office he was no longer POTUS and therefore the Congress no longer had jurisdiction over him. They lacked justification. People bring lawsuits to court often but unless they have legal standing (justification) to do so their case will be dismiss out of hand.

Romans 3:26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Since faith is a fruit of the Spirit & when faith & Holy Spirit are received simultaneously at the hearing of the gospel, then when we believe, we had been saved because we believe. So justification & salvation have been done at the same time in order for us to believe in Jesus Christ by the grace of God.

Rationalization. Thoroughly eisegetic and not what scripture actually stated. Just read it as written and stop inserting the word "salvation" into God's word where God did NOT use it. God is the Creator of language and He knows how to use words. If he'd wanted to use the word "salvation" there He would have done so. He did not.

We have been saved because God decided to save us. We have been saved THROUGH faith, not BY faith. I reiterate: there isn't a single place in the entire Bible where the phrase "saved BY faith" ever occurs.

Are you sure you can show the difference between saved by grace through faith from saved by grace by faith?

I did and I have. Not only is there no place where scripture ever states, "saved by faith," every time any causality is asserted to salvation it is ALWAYS attributed to God and NEVER attributed to sinfully dead and enslaved flesh. Scripture does not always report causality, but where it does, it is always God who is the causal agent and not the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner.

Argument to the contrary are always inferential-only, and the always exist in contradiction to the many reports in scripture of God as the agent. It is God who adds people to Christ. Dead and enslaved sinners do not add dead and enslaved sinners to Christ.

One believer made a big deal about believing IN Jesus Christ is different from believing ON Jesus Christ. I do not see the difference.

Romans 3:26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

John 6:Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

No one believes apart from God's grace.

God's grace is NOT a warm fuzzy ethereal miasma. I explained: the grace of Ephesians 2:8 is an absolute; an absolute direct action by God where He sovereignly asserts Himself specifically for the purpose of salvation and it is has absolutely NOTHING to do of ourselves; it is His gift. Not only this, but the specified purpose is good works. Not just any good works, but good works He has already planned for us to perform.


Now look at the two verse you just used. Notice Romans 3:26 does NOT state faith justifies. It explicitly states Jesus justifies. Yes, Jesus justifies those who believe but, in that verse, it is not the belief doing the justification. Your second choice explicitly states it is God's work to believe. The belief of the sinner is God's work. What the verse does NOT state, is "saved BY faith." Many people in the gospels believed in Jesus, but not all of them became saved. Matthew 7 makes this clear.

 

[Josheb]

Justification (Gr: dikaiosis) is a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a finding of right standing with God's justice, a proclamation of time served, debt paid, guilt removed.
It is a forensic and imputed righteuosness (Ro 4:1-11), not an actual righteousness, which is imparted through obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19).

This justification (declaration of "not guilty") by faith is the result of forgiveness of sin, is salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) through faith, not by works.

Tell @ChristB4us

Being declared not guilty is not identical to being saved. The last line does exactly what ought not to be done: conflate disparate terms and selective and eisegetic assignment of causality contrary to scripture. This is evident in the fact Romans 5:9, the verse to which you appealed to justify (pun intended) that last sentence does NOT mention faith at all. ChristB4us made the same mistake. Justification by blood is not identical to justification by faith.

 

[civic]

Nope.

Nowhere in the entire Bible will the words "saved by faith" be found. Nowhere. What will be found is a number of things that occur through faith and a number of things by faith, but none of the "by" faiths are salvation. None of them. We are justified by faith, but justification is not salvation. The two are not identical terms and should not be conflated or otherwise treated synonymously. The promise is guaranteed by faith, but neither the promise nor the guarantee is salvation. They are not terms identical to salvation and neither should be conflated or otherwise treated as synonymous with salvation. We have our introduction into God's grace by faith, but that introduction is not salvation. There's a lot of stuff like that in the NT. No one constituent element of salvation should ever be conflated with the whole. Every single reference of something that occurs by faith should be understood that way. Justification is a constituent element of salvation, NOT the whole of it.

The phrase "saved by faith" will not be found in scripture. We are saved by grace and that is found plainly stated in scripture.

Furthermore, if you look at the Greek the word "by" doesn't actually occur in Ephesians 2:8. The English translated the Greek using the word "by" because the Greek conjugation of "chariti" is an absolute action of God extending Himself by favor. It would be better translated to say, "God's sovereign assertion of his favor saved you...." Then when this is coupled with the next clause, "through faith" there is a through ("dia") in the Greek. Some read this to say it is through your faith that God extended his grace, but the very next clause precludes any and all possibility of reading the text that way because it explicitly states, "it is NOT of yourselves," and then adds "it is a gift." If grace is a result of faith, then it is a wage, not a gift.

One last point. As you survey the New Testament epistolary to verify what I just posted notice when the author is writing about Christians and when he is writing about non-Christians. You'll find most of the epistolary is written to Christians about Christians as Christians, and not about non-Christians and how non-Christians did something to become saved. Identify the audience about whom the text is written. Don't conflate non-believers with believers, and don't apply the attributes of the redeemed, regenerate, spirit-filled believer with the unregenerate, no-Spirit, non-believer who has only his sinfully dead and enslaved flesh. Well-meaning Christians make that mistake often.

How is Acts 16:31 any different than “ saved by faith “. ?

This sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.

 

[Josheb]

How is Acts 16:31 any different than “ saved by faith “. ?

This sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.

It is saved through faith, not saved by faith.

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

That should be read in a manner consistent with Ephesians 2:8, NOT in a manner contrary to Ephesians 2:8. Believe in the Lord Jesus and [through your faith] you will be saved," is NOT the same as "Believe in the Lord Jesus and [by your faith] you will be saved. The first is a correlative statement, the second is a causative statement. Acts 16:31 does NOT state any causality. Not only does that verse NOT state any causality, but it would also assert the sinfully dead and sinful flesh can affect salvation, and Ephesians 2:9 explicitly states salvation by grace through faith is not of ourselves.

 

[civic]

It is saved through faith, not saved by faith.

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

That should be read in a manner consistent with Ephesians 2:8, NOT in a manner contrary to Ephesians 2:8. Believe in the Lord Jesus and [through your faith] you will be saved," is NOT the same as "Believe in the Lord Jesus and [by your faith] you will be saved. The first is a correlative statement, the second is a causative statement. Acts 16:31 does NOT state any causality. Not only does that verse NOT state any causality, but it would also assert the sinfully dead and sinful flesh can affect salvation, and Ephesians 2:9 explicitly states salvation by grace through faith is not of ourselves.

But acts doesn’t say through your faith is says believe in the Lord and you will be saved . Jesus says in many other places “ your faith “ has saved you .

 

[ChristB4us]

Nope. Justification is a legal term and that is all it is.

Tell @ChristB4us

Being declared not guilty is not identical to being saved. The last line does exactly what ought not to be done: conflate disparate terms and selective and eisegetic assignment of causality contrary to scripture. This is evident in the fact Romans 5:9, the verse to which you appealed to justify (pun intended) that last sentence does NOT mention faith at all. ChristB4us made the same mistake. Justification by blood is not identical to justification by faith.

Believers try to explain away 1 Corinthians 1:18 as if it is about ongoing sanctification and not justification aka salvation and not glorification.

The KJV has it as "are saved" whereas some modern versions has it as "are being saved".

If you can recall if you were ever in such a discussion, then do you remember that part of it in that debate?

Did you try to explain justification was not salvation then or did you not agree with it being about ongoing sanctification but did not care to correct that part of their argument?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. KJV

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize,(A) but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom(B) and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness(C) to those who are perishing,(D) but to us who are being saved(E) it is the power of God.(F) 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[a](G)
20 Where is the wise person?(H) Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age?(I) Has not God made foolish(J) the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world(K) through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save(L) those who believe.(M) NIV
I bolden the portion in verse 21 to prove that it is are saved since that is the effect for believing the preaching of the cross.

Anyway, I disagree with you since justification is salvation.

 

[Eleanor]

Tell @ChristB4us

Being declared not guilty is not identical to being saved. The last line does exactly what ought not to be done: conflate disparate terms and selective and eisegetic assignment of causality contrary to scripture. This is evident in the fact Romans 5:9, the verse to which you appealed to justify (pun intended) that last sentence does NOT mention faith at all. ChristB4us made the same mistake. Justification by blood is not identical to justification by faith.

Agreed. . .typo there, and no possibility to correct on this forum.

It should have been:
This justification (declaration of "not guilty") by faith is the result of forgiveness of sin, which is salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) through faith, not by works.
(Underlined gives the meaning of my intent, which is not completely clear.)

Instead of:
This justification (declaration of "not guilty") by faith is the result of forgiveness of sin, is salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) through faith, not by works.

 

[ChristB4us]

Amended; How Are we Saved?

@Josheb

New Poll made.

Even though we are still in disagreement over justification is not salvation when I say it is in according to these verses.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Josheb]

But acts doesn’t say through your faith is says believe in the Lord and you will be saved . Jesus says in many other places “ your faith “ has saved you .

Yep. And every single mention you might ever bring up should be read in a manner consistent with, and not in opposition to, Ephesians 2:8-10. Never read any mention of faith in contradiction to that passage. Never read any mention of the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner's faith to think faith of the sinful flesh causes salvation from the sinful flesh. That is always going to be a circular argument: sinful flesh saved itself from sin...... by it faith.

 

[Josheb]

Believers try to explain away 1 Corinthians 1:18...

Perhaps but that did not happen here. Nice red herring, though.

 

[civic]

Yep. And every single mention you might ever bring up should be read in a manner consistent with, and not in opposition to, Ephesians 2:8-10. Never read any mention of faith in contradiction to that passage. Never read any mention of the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner's faith to think faith of the sinful flesh causes salvation from the sinful flesh. That is always going to be a circular argument: sinful flesh saved itself from sin...... by it faith.

I’m not saying it’s in the absence of Gods grace drawing or convicting them but they must be willing to come and follow Christ as His disciple and believe / trust in Him . Jesus challenged men to express faith in Him and to follow Him by submitting their will to His.

 

[Josheb]

I’m not saying it’s in the absence of Gods grace drawing or convicting them but they must be willing to come and follow Christ as His disciple and believe / trust in Him . Jesus challenged men to express faith in Him and to follow Him by submitting their will to His.

You're changing the subject. I can point to explicitly scripture stating God draws (drags) people to Christ and unless He does so no one can come to Jesus. I can point to explicit statements in scripture (Old and New) that explicitly state no one seeks God, much less comes to Him on their own. Yes, Jesus challenged people to express faith but He also told them to be perfect.

Can any man be perfect like God?

There a numerous places where God/Jesus commanded things that He knew could not or would not be done and the only way to tell which are the commands we can do and which are the commands we cannot do is by reading scripture as a whole, not selectively as volitionalists do. Noneof the verses you will ever cite should ever be read in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8-10. None of them. They should never be read to contradict God saying none seek Him, or the only way to come to Jesus is by God dragging them.

Synergism has ALWAYS been an inference-only soteriology.

We are saved by grace through faith, not by grace by faith. Faith is one of the things by which we are justified and through that faith we are saved.

But it is ALL by grace; by God's sovereign assertion of Himself and not anything of ourselves.

 

[civic]

You're changing the subject. I can point to explicitly scripture stating God draws (drags) people to Christ and unless He does so no one can come to Jesus. I can point to explicit statements in scripture (Old and New) that explicitly state no one seeks God, much less comes to Him on their own. Yes, Jesus challenged people to express faith but He also told them to be perfect.

Can any man be perfect like God?

There a numerous places where God/Jesus commanded things that He knew could not or would not be done and the only way to tell which are the commands we can do and which are the commands we cannot do is by reading scripture as a whole, not selectively as volitionalists do. Noneof the verses you will ever cite should ever be read in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8-10. None of them. They should never be read to contradict God saying none seek Him, or the only way to come to Jesus is by God dragging them.

Synergism has ALWAYS been an inference-only soteriology.

We are saved by grace through faith, not by grace by faith. Faith is one of the things by which we are justified and through that faith we are saved.

But it is ALL by grace; by God's sovereign assertion of Himself and not anything of ourselves.

Jesus inferred numerous times it was “ their “ faith that saved them . Not the faith that He gave them so they would be saved or healed.

 

[civic]

I'd say we are talking past one another until the actual texts alluded to are presented and examined.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

 

[ChristB4us]

Perhaps but that did not happen here. Nice red herring, though.

Just asking if you had ever been in a conversation about that correct wording of 1 Corinthians 1:18 because if you did, then it has bearing in our discussion since they were trying to rationalize modern Bibles for having it as "are being saved" from the KJV's "are saved" as the KJV had it wrong as it was ongoing sanctification and not justification in regards to salvation. I had come across this teaching several times in trying to refute the KJV's about justification, sanctification, and glorification.

So if you had not, & God and you only know the truth if you had not, then I reckon it would be a red herring to you, but it would be interesting to see how you would respond to that.

 

[ChristB4us]

I’m not saying it’s in the absence of Gods grace drawing or convicting them but they must be willing to come and follow Christ as His disciple and believe / trust in Him . Jesus challenged men to express faith in Him and to follow Him by submitting their will to His.

Can you provide an example in scripture for this kind of challenge?

I am reminded about this desperate father for his demonic possessed son;

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. 27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose. 28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? 29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

To me, it is not about how serious we are but believing how serious He is in helping us to follow Him since trust is the basis for all relationships.

Sometimes I am in situation or a crisis where I need His help to keep my eyes on Him to believe in Him in that way too.

 

[civic]

Can you provide an example in scripture for this kind of challenge?

I am reminded about this desperate father for his demonic possessed son;

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. 27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose. 28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? 29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

To me, it is not about how serious we are but believing how serious He is in helping us to follow Him since trust is the basis for all relationships.

Sometimes I am in situation or a crisis where I need His help to keep my eyes on Him to believe in Him in that way too.

I provided a dozen verses in post 164 but I can provide many more on Jesus call to discipleship

 

[ChristB4us]

I provided a dozen verses in post 164 but I can provide many more on Jesus call to discipleship

Yes, I know about discipleship but I do not see it as a challenge but Him asking us to trust Him to help us to follow Him as the Good Shepherd He is. I had been led astray by that call to make a commitment to make Jesus Lord of my life as it was put to me that if just believing in Him was okay, then that was fine but I had to ask why make such a commitment? If I recall correctly, I believe the gist of it was said to be a witness to how serious I was in following Jesus. And so I did, but by doing so, since it was my commitment in telling God & others what I am going to do, I kept looking to myself to do the best I can in keeping that commitment and failed. I would turn to Jesus in prayer and He would help me, but then I would show my appreciation by trying to keep that commitment again; and failed again that next day if not that same day.

It took Him a while to see my error to rely on Him all the time by faith and so He set me free from that commitment and all other man made bondages to trusting Him as my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
This is why I do not see Him giving a challenge like make a commitment or a promise to follow Him for He knew what was in man.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

So if I wanted to follow Him, I was to deny myself as able to, ( since I could not save myself religiously ) pick up the cross daily, as it is not me who live, but Christ Who lives in me, and so my response to Him saying "Follow Me" is Him asking me to trust Him as my Good Shepherd & Friend to help me to follow Him.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This pretty much explains why it is written that the just shall live by faith... in Him and His words to us by that New Covenant He has made declaring what He will do it since mankind, the cream of the crop; failed in keeping the Old Covenant, and so now it is God's turn and all He asks from us is to believe Him for that too.... in all things; and not just for salvation.

Whenever life gets stormy or a challenge in that respect, what do we do but go to the Lord in prayer? Often times than not, of late, He lifts my chin up and reminds me that He is in me and is with me always to get me through yet another trial of oppression, provocation & insecurities as well as to keep me from my sins in seeking an escape other than Him as my refuge. That is a big job that only God can do as I hope in Him to do it too.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

 

[ReverendRV]

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

And you are promoting these as an Arminian...

@Josheb

 

[civic]

And you are promoting these as an Arminian...

@Josheb

No as a Christian.