How Are We Saved?

[Josheb]

nt

 

[Josheb]

We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ without works whereas deferring from those that say faith without works is dead as if applying to that faith in Jesus Christ for salvation when James was talking about the church's supposed faith in God to provide to the poor & rebuking the church for applying that faith in God to provide for the poor to get out of helping the poor that were in immediate need for food & clothing.

Paul and James were addressing the matter of faith and faithfulness in different contexts from different perspective. The two writings should be read complementarily, not in contradiction to each other.


More importantly, though, neither passage mentioned is about HOW a person becomes saved. Both men were writing to the already-saved about the conduct of the already-saved.

So there are just grounds to revisit James words again in Chapter 2 as James was rebuking the church for disrespecting the poor in showing favoritism to the rich from the beginning of that chapter and goes on to expose how they try to use faith in God to provide to the poor just to get out of helping the poor.

Was there a specific point at which James either called into question their salvation or denied their possessing salvation?

 

[Josheb]

Do not use commentaries but seek wisdom from the Lord.

False dichotomy. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions.

 

[ChristB4us]

Paul and James were addressing the matter of faith and faithfulness in different contexts from different perspective. The two writings should be read complementarily, not in contradiction to each other.

They were not contradicting each other when Paul refers to faith in Jesus Christ without works for salvation whereas James was rebuking the church for mistreating the poor by sharing their faith to the poor that God will provide for them and doing that just to get out of helping the poor.

To apply James's words of faith without works for us today, when a church and pastor brow beat members of the congregation to tithe and lead them into promises of giving, that church and that pastor cannot preach faith in God to provide when they fail to believe God will raise up cheerful givers instead. The pastor gets an IRA account plus his salary, a house to live in for free by the church while intern and an expense account and he has the gall to bleed the poor by demanding they give 10 % of their total gross earnings or else they are stealing from God's church. Baloney.

Families has to provide for their own house or else they are worse than an infidel. This is in reference to taking care of widows within their families.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

But I say the church and that pastor should not be teaching tithing nor asking for pledges of giving but rely on God to raise up cheerful givers or else shut up about having faith in God to provide because it is dead in my eyes and in the eyes of the church.

it is nobody's business if a believer gives or not. It is between him and God. Now some give to get tax deductions, but they should not be expecting any reward from God for that since they already have received their rewards.

Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

More importantly, though, neither passage mentioned is about HOW a person becomes saved. Both men were writing to the already-saved about the conduct of the already-saved.

Paul was referring to how we are saved by believing in Him per Romans 4:1-5 and cited Abraham by example.

James cited Abraham by example for how he applied faith in God to provide and He did for why he named that place Jehovah-jireh God provides for His servants and that is the faith James was talking about that requires works.

Was there a specific point at which James either called into question their salvation or denied their possessing salvation?

James was never talking about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation in James 2nd chapter but you may be surprised how many teachings out there that exhort works with salvation as proof of salvation by misapplying James' words of "faith without works being dead". It is heresy to do that.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

But the emphasis on works is for profit' of men, rather than for salvation.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

The cost of discipleship is looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily to be ready and willing to leave all this life and treasures therein behind or else we may find ourselves left behind which is why we should pray for His help to escape.

Luke 21;33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[ChristB4us]

Is this some sort of command or rebuke from you to others? I implement the usage of commentaries often.

First, you need to be aware your posts are in and of themselves "commentaries" and are generally and typically errant teachings.

Secondly, why would we disobey God and His given mandate that He gives us others to listen to as per Ephesians 4:11ff, men of God He has sent for such purpose?

Also, your incessant appeal to seek wisdom from the Lord means what exactly? He speaks directly to you? What you are posting here comes directly from Him? Thus, your writings and commentaries here are theopneustos?

And, if none of that is true, aren't you simply fooling yourself and/or at the same time portraying yourself as someone who gets all of your teaching from God yet at the same time will more than likely backpedal when called to substantiate your own claims? Care to put your money where your mouth is friend?

And lastly, you have no evidence or proof that the KJV is the better "meat" translation, and that the alleged "anti-kjvers" aren't getting the true meat, yet you are. All of that is merely your uninformed opinion and is a totally unnecessary form of spiritual maligning of others along with spiritual manipulation and belittling.

I do not mind believers applying what I have said to prove all things with Him by the scriptures. I am not perfect yet and neither is anyone lese for why we should prove everything by Him. That is the point of the exhortation. Go to Jesus to prove everything and abstain from all appearances of evil with teachings, sermons, commentaries, hymnals, and even long held creeds. We just cannot afford to follow the crowd any more if we seek to follow Jesus Christ personally.

 

[ChristB4us]

False dichotomy. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions.

No. You are to prove everything by Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd if you wish to follow Him rather than the crowd or the church.

Do not take commentaries at face values as I am sure you can find opposing commentaries.

Prove everything; the creeds, commentaries, Biblical footnotes since one assign the behemoth as an alligator, hippo, or an elephant and none of them has a tail as long as a cedar which is a tree and so that is a dinosaur being described there. Its stones wrapped in sinew testifies to the sex organs if the dinosaurs are internal long before science found out about it in the last decade.

That is what education does for us today as blind us to reading the scriptures as it is written instead of doubting what it says and going along with biblical scholars instead.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. 16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. 18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

So prove the creeds, the hymnals, and even the next Sunday sermon because the truth an be hidden and lies abound causing heresy which is a work of the flesh.

 

[ChristB4us]

But you're only backpedaling here.

Not really. Sensing you being argumentative on your part.

So, tell me how you do that, how you "prove" what you teach by Him is true.

By trusting Jesus Christ to lead me correctly by the meat of His words as kept in the KJV.

You've proven everything you teach and state by Him, correct? Therefore all you say is true, correct?

Always open to correction by Him by the scripture.

Again, tell me how you go to Jesus and He proves everything to you. Since this is your mantra, an example?

By trusting Him that He will be your Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to follow Him.

So now commentaries are OK? Or are you saying they are "evil?" If so, does that include your "teachings" or the teachings of others that we read? If it is the teachings of others that are evil, names?

I am saying Jesus Christ is to be our personal Good shepherd or else how can you apply His words below?

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Brother, you're dodging. My post to you was polemic in attempt to get you to face your own sayings head on, and see that they are amiss because in reality they fall short.

Non sequitir.

Then anything you teach is based on what? The power of persuasion of a man's speech?

1 Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 3;5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

If the Lord does any thing in ministry, I shall praise Him for that for I have nothing to do with it as I am thankful for His minster to me as well.

 

[Josheb]

They were not contradicting each other when Paul refers to faith in Jesus Christ without works for salvation whereas James was rebuking the church for mistreating the poor by sharing their faith to the poor that God will provide for them and doing that just to get out of helping the poor.

It is correct, and very important, to say they were not contradicting each other. It is also true that James was addressing the problem of classism in the congregations, but that is not the whole of his faith requires faithfulness commentary. Paul took a more diverse tack with the subject, bringing pre-conversion and post-conversion concerns as well as concerns about conversion versus justification - neither of which is the whole of salvation. James isn't writing about faith alone in those contexts. He is, as you have observed, writing to an already converted reader about how to conduct themselves post-conversion.

To apply James's words of faith without works for us today, when a church and pastor brow beat members...

Relevance?

James was never talking about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation in James 2nd chapter but you may be surprised how many teachings out there that exhort works with salvation as proof of salvation...

Relevance?

The cost of discipleship is looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily to be ready and willing to leave all this life and treasures therein behind or else we may find ourselves left behind which is why we should pray for His help to escape.

Relevance?




Go back and re-read the poll, and then the author's opening commentary. Ask yourself, "Is this op about Church-ragging? Is this thread about our subject experience of surprise? Is this op's intent eschatological?" Is this on about brow beating pastors?

 

[Josheb]

No. You are to prove everything by Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd if you wish to follow Him rather than the crowd or the church.

And Jesus often uses others. Jesus used Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and a host of others from what we now call the "Old Testament" to teach Christians.

Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Jesus used others. In fact, nearly everything Jesus is reported in the gospels to have taught can be found in the Old Testament. Not only did Jesus use the words of others, but Jesus used Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James and others and Jesus did not stop using others after the canon of scripture was closed. Timothy would be a case in point; one firmly couched in scripture.

1 Timothy 4:11-16
Prescribe and teach these things. Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
Timothy went on to teach and preach beyond the time when what we now call the "canon" of scripture closed. The same is true of Polycarp and Ignatius (both taught by the apostle John). Furthermore, there are a few places in scripture where the writers used the words of pagans! John referenced the Hellenist-influenced philosopher Philo and Paul quoted the Greek philosopher Epimenides.

Do not take commentaries at face values as I am sure you can find opposing commentaries.

I don't.

But your protest is a red herring. No one should read what others speak or write without verifying that content with scripture because scripture alone is authoritative. That does not mean, and it does not preclude, someone writing after the canon of scripture was closed from being correct. If that were so then there would be no one to correctly apply scripture in subsequent generations. If that were true then that would mean you have no business whatsoever writing this op.

Your own strict adherence ONLY to scripture undermines the effort to write anything in this forum.

Prove everything....

Yep.

And prove them with correctly rendered scripture.



Now, back to the point: The point is that scripture and theology are not mutually exclusive conditions. Anyone, including you, who separates scripture from God's use of others is teaching falsely.



One last point is warranted: Even the scriptures must be read with the Spirit's guidance and a well-developed sense of discernment because the scriptures something record men saying false things and those lacking discernment will miss those men's errors. This is also true of the many literary devices God employed in scripture, such as rhetoric or hyperbole. People who take rhetorical statements and hyperbole are not reading scripture correctly. If they subscribe to a "scripture-alone" ethos that means "literal-only-scripture-only" then they will inevitably end up learning and then teaching falsely.

Galatians 5:12 KJV
I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Galatians 5:12 NAS
I wish that those who are troubling you would even emasculate themselves.

The Greek "apokopto" is used to refer to castration. "Apokopto" doesn't translate into our English versions of the Bible so those who don't study Greek might miss the rhetoric and hyperbole with which Paul was writing. Paul was NOT literally recommending the self-castration of those who obstructed his audience. There are literally scores of examples like this throughout the Bible.

God gave us His scripture. God also gave us apostles, prophets, evangelists, preachers and teachers so we would all grow in Christ, become unified, and the Church would grow (Eph. 4). God uses scripture AND God uses others.

Discernment must be used with both.

The false dichotomy proves it.

 

[donadams]

We are saved by God’s GRACE. …Selah

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

- Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)

Who’s faith?

 

[Shulammite]

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8-9.

Grace is unmerited favor. God has ingratiated us with Himself. By His acts, that we put faith in, we are saved. For by no other name under heaven is given to men that they may be.

 

[Carbon]

Grace is unmerited favor.

God has ingratiated us with Himself.

Please explain?

By His acts, that we put faith in,

What do you mean by,”we put faith in?”

we are saved. For by no other name under heaven is given to men that they may be.

 

[Eleanor]

Grace is unmerited favor. God has ingratiated us with Himself. By His acts, that we put faith in, we are saved. For by no other name under heaven is given to men that they may be.

We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ's atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person for the remission of our sin (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[ChristB4us]

It is correct, and very important, to say they were not contradicting each other. It is also true that James was addressing the problem of classism in the congregations, but that is not the whole of his faith requires faithfulness commentary.

Thereby we disagree.

Paul took a more diverse tack with the subject, bringing pre-conversion and post-conversion concerns as well as concerns about conversion versus justification - neither of which is the whole of salvation. James isn't writing about faith alone in those contexts. He is, as you have observed, writing to an already converted reader about how to conduct themselves post-conversion.

Relevance?

Relevance?

Relevance?

To the topic of how we are saved.... very relevant because faith without works being dead thus applying faith with works to how we are saved is not how we are saved.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Go back and re-read the poll, and then the author's opening commentary. Ask yourself, "Is this op about Church-ragging? Is this thread about our subject experience of surprise? Is this op's intent eschatological?" Is this on about brow beating pastors?

The title of the thread is how I am addressing James' words to this discussion as not to be applied when he was talking about faith in God to provide and not faith in Jesus Christ for how we are saved.

 

[ChristB4us]

And Jesus often uses others. Jesus used Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and a host of others from what we now call the "Old Testament" to teach Christians.

Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Jesus used others. In fact, nearly everything Jesus is reported in the gospels to have taught can be found in the Old Testament. Not only did Jesus use the words of others, but Jesus used Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James and others and Jesus did not stop using others after the canon of scripture was closed. Timothy would be a case in point; one firmly couched in scripture.

1 Timothy 4:11-16
Prescribe and teach these things. Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
Timothy went on to teach and preach beyond the time when what we now call the "canon" of scripture closed. The same is true of Polycarp and Ignatius (both taught by the apostle John). Furthermore, there are a few places in scripture where the writers used the words of pagans! John referenced the Hellenist-influenced philosopher Philo and Paul quoted the Greek philosopher Epimenides.

I don't.

But your protest is a red herring. No one should read what others speak or write without verifying that content with scripture because scripture alone is authoritative. That does not mean, and it does not preclude, someone writing after the canon of scripture was closed from being correct. If that were so then there would be no one to correctly apply scripture in subsequent generations. If that were true then that would mean you have no business whatsoever writing this op.

Do you have a hard time reproving the Catholic Church or what?

Your own strict adherence ONLY to scripture undermines the effort to write anything in this forum.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Yep.

And prove them with correctly rendered scripture.

Now, back to the point: The point is that scripture and theology are not mutually exclusive conditions. Anyone, including you, who separates scripture from God's use of others is teaching falsely.

Again, do you have a hard time reproving the Catholic Church of their works in Catholicism? They claim to use scripture and yet not rightly dividing the word of truth because they do not have an answer for those scriptures that reproves them. They just say look to them to explain it to you but if no explanation, you are still to follow them anyway.

One last point is warranted: Even the scriptures must be read with the Spirit's guidance and a well-developed sense of discernment because the scriptures something record men saying false things and those lacking discernment will miss those men's errors. This is also true of the many literary devices God employed in scripture, such as rhetoric or hyperbole. People who take rhetorical statements and hyperbole are not reading scripture correctly. If they subscribe to a "scripture-alone" ethos that means "literal-only-scripture-only" then they will inevitably end up learning and then teaching falsely.

Galatians 5:12 KJV
I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Galatians 5:12 NAS
I wish that those who are troubling you would even emasculate themselves.

The Greek "apokopto" is used to refer to castration. "Apokopto" doesn't translate into our English versions of the Bible so those who don't study Greek might miss the rhetoric and hyperbole with which Paul was writing. Paul was NOT literally recommending the self-castration of those who obstructed his audience. There are literally scores of examples like this throughout the Bible.

God gave us His scripture. God also gave us apostles, prophets, evangelists, preachers and teachers so we would all grow in Christ, become unified, and the Church would grow (Eph. 4). God uses scripture AND God uses others.

Discernment must be used with both.

The false dichotomy proves it.

No lie can be of the truth. No scripture can go against other scripture for how one can know if they are rightly dividing the word of truth or not.

And when modern Bibles has contrary verses that makes one doubt what was written like for example.. the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself or from Himself but speaks what He hears as John 16:13 testify in ALL Bible versions and yet some Bible versions seem to imply that He can utter groans or sighs from Himself in uttering His intercessions as if tongues can be used for private use in Romans 8:26-27 whereas the KJV and a few Bible versions testify that He cannot even utter His groanings or His sighings.

Since scripture cannot go against scripture, then the KJV has it right in order to prove God's gift of tongues are not for private use and that tongue that they have is gibberish nonsense for why there is no interpretation coming is not of Him at all but of the devil as this kind of tongue exists in the occult before Pentecost per Isaiah 8:19 and in Roman Idolatry.

The History of Tongues: Pagan Practices

Like it or not, wayward believers are going to be offended that have been led astray and they know it not.

 

[Josheb]

Thereby we disagree.

His comments on giving, Abaraham, and Rahab have nothing to do with "the church for disrespecting the poor in showing favoritism to the rich". Abraham was a very rich man (Gen. 13) when his faith was credited to him as righteousness (Gen. 15). His comments were not solely about favoring the rich and disrespecting the poor. "faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected" has nothing to do with wealth, or the lack thereof. It has nothing whatsoever to do with prejudice. It is a standard applied to all, rich or poor, young or old, etc.

To the topic of how we are saved.... very relevant because faith without works being dead thus applying faith with works to how we are saved is not how we are saved.

Hmmm... Curious statement since you just got done disagreeing with me when I said the text was about more than the prejudices of the rich and poor. Look at how your post reads to others. In one sentence James' words are NOT about anything other than the Church's disrespect of the poor and favoritism of the rich, but in the next sentences it is claimed to be about how we are saved. The two positions contradict one anoither; the text cannot be only about one thing and then also another.

Furthermore, James did not apply faith with works to how we are saved. He was writing to an already-saved audience! The only mention of "save" is in verse 14, and that verse implies the person is NOT saved (because he no works by which "faith working with his works," existed).

Titus 3:4...

Can't make claims about James and use Titus. That's moving the goalposts.

 

[Josheb]

Do you have a hard time reproving the Catholic Church or what?

No.

Relevance?

The History of Tongues: Pagan Practices

Like it or not, wayward believers are going to be offended that have been led astray and they know it not.

Relevance?

 

[Shulammite]

Please explain?

What do you mean by,”we put faith in?”

Who do you put your faith in?

 

[Carbon]

Who do you put your faith in?

Okay I’m assuming you mean Jesus?

But some people have faith in their faith.

 

[Shulammite]

Okay I’m assuming you mean Jesus?

But some people have faith in their faith.

Huh. Telling. By that, I will assume you mean self? Of course I mean Jesus. Did you think I meant myself? As I said, telling.