Free Will

[Eleanor]

I think that there's a sense in which the elect are in both, at the same time (before being saved). We're "in Adam" according to our fallen nature; but, "in Christ", in that we were chosen in him, before the foundation of the world. This is a lesser sense of "in Christ" from that which obtains after we're born again (this is the full package), but it is still a kind of "in Christ".

Where do we find this lesser sense in the NT?

Jesus applied the blood of his sacrifice, when he went to the heavenly temple, as High Priest.

Jesus went to heaven to present the satisfaction of his atonement for the elect.

It is then applied to the elect by faith.

 

[Eleanor]

I think you mentioned the eternal and chronological way of looking at this; I think some answers are determined by one's perspective.

It is both eternal and chronological.

 

[Selah7]

Good morning.

I can’t disagree with that.

Okay. You may be right. There could be a mystery there for me that I just don’t know about.


Interesting

Just some extra thoughts to “selah” (pause and meditate about)—When Jesus called each of His disciples, they immediately left everything and followed Him. Why? because they were elected by God before the foundation of the world….and they heard (with ears to hear) their Shepherd’s voice.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

- John 10:26-29

 

[civic]

Just some extra thoughts to “selah” (pause and meditate about)—When Jesus called each of His disciples, they immediately left everything and followed Him. Why? because they were elected by God before the foundation of the world….and they heard (with ears to hear) their Shepherd’s voice.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

- John 10:26-29
View attachment 150

Don't forget about judas who was also called like the others to be His disciple.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Don't forget about judas who was also called like the others to be His disciple.

Sure...for the single purpose of fulfilling prophecy. He could no more resist the call than John or James. It was an effectual calling for the exact result ordained by God.

 

[civic]

Sure...for the single purpose of fulfilling prophecy. He could no more resist the call than John or James. It was an effectual calling for the exact result ordained by God.

I'm not saying I agree with this below but here is another side of the argument to contemplate as food for thought.

Was Lucifer always the Devil? Was he not once a perfect anointed cherub of God who fell through the sin of pride (Isaiah 14:12–15; Ezekiel 28:11–19)? “The angels which kept not their first estate” (Jude 6) also fell from a perfect position. Did not they all possess eternal life in the present tense until it was forfeited? The same can be said of Adam and Eve. Did not they once possess eternal life (present tense) based conditionally upon their obedience? Yes, it is possible to lose eternal life of your own free will. Otherwise these would have never lost their eternal life. How much more are we accountable to God in our present condition of regeneration through the blood of Christ. “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?” (Hebrews 2:3).

What about Judas Iscariot? Some say Judas was never a true apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ. They rightly consider his end but never truly consider what the Bible says about his beginning. Thus many believe he was a false apostle, though not one Scripture calls him a false apostle. He was an apostle who apostatized.

Apostle means one sent forth, while apostate means one going, or gone backward, as abandoning, forsaking one’s profession of faith and practices. As I have heard it termed so many times, only a believer can ever rightly be labeled a backslider. The world or unbeliever can’t apostatize (fall away or go backwards), because an unbeliever has never believed unto salvation in Christ. They can’t fall when they are already fallen. In order to fall you must have a position from which to fall.

Acts 1:16–26 tells of Peter and the disciples choosing another apostle to fill the vacancy left by Judas. Verse 16 speaks of the Scripture being fulfilled that was spoken by the Holy Ghost concerning Judas. Notice verse 17, “For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.” Also notice in verse 20, “And his bishopric [the charge of instructing and governing in spiritual concerns; office] let another take.” Concerning the choosing of a new apostle, verse 25 says, “That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship [the office or dignity of an apostle], from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” How could Judas fall from a position appointed to him by our Lord Himself if he never really was an apostle? According to the scriptures a qualification for a bishop is one who is blameless (1 Timothy 3:2). If a bishop or elder of the church is to be blameless, how much more an apostle who would be a founder of churches. Do we really think Jesus would choose an officer of the church contrary to his Word? Men may, but not our Lord!

On certain occasions such as on the mount of transfiguration, the apostles were called by their specific names such as James, John, and Peter. Very often apostles were named specifically in certain settings of whom Judas was also named specifically and referred to as he who betrayed Jesus. When the Scripture says “his disciples,” “my disciples,” or “the twelve” without specific names, should not we believe that it includes Judas as being numbered with the twelve (Acts 1:17; Matthew 10:1; 11:1; Mark 4:10)? He was part of the ministry from the beginning. It is interesting to note that after Judas betrayed Christ and committed suicide, the Gospel writers refer to the disciples collectively as “the eleven” (Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:9, 33). Henceforth all Scripture quotations in this tract that speak of “his disciples” and especially “the twelve,” include Judas.

In my personal study of Judas, the Lord wanted me, once a believer in unconditional eternal security (“Once Saved, Always Saved”), to see through His Word that Judas was once a believer who apostatized unto perdition. Through that study, the Spirit revealed about eighty-five other verses (not mentioned in this tract) which refer to “his disciples,” of whom Judas was a part. Also found in the four Gospels are eight references to “thy disciples,” nineteen references to “the disciples,” and twenty-one references to “the twelve.”

Psalm 41:9 says of Judas, “Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I trusted which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Notice the expressions in this verse: mine own— double ownership; familiar—intimate, close, unreserved converse; friend—as Abraham was the friend of God; I trusted—the Lord trusted Judas! Jesus also called Judas his friend even after Judas betrayed Him with a kiss (Matthew 26:49–50). Jesus was wounded in the house of His friends (Zechariah 13:6). Jesus never called the Pharisees His friends.

 

[civic]

continued :

Let us look at many other verses that give us undeniable proof that Judas was once saved. We find the following:

• He was a child of the bridechamber (Matthew 9:15).
• He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Jesus called unto Him His twelve disciples. (Matthew 10:1–13). See also Mark 6:7–13 and Luke 9:1–6.
• Jesus told His disciples that if anyone would reject them or their message from Him, they would receive severe judgment (Matthew 10:14–15).
• Judas was a sheep among wolves (Matthew 10:16).
• In Luke 12:32 Jesus says to His disciples, “Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.”
• He once heard and followed the Good Shepherd (John 10:27).
• “He that receiveth you receiveth me” (Matthew 10:40).
• He was part of Jesus’ family (Matthew 12:48–50).
• Jesus said that His heavenly Father was the disciples’ heavenly Father by using the terms your, thy, and our Father in relation to His disciples’ relationship with His Father (Matthew 10:20; 5:16, 45, 48; 6:1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 14, 15, 18, 26, 32; 7:11).
• Judas was given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven (Matthew 13:10–11).
• His eyes saw and his ears heard—he understood (Matthew 13:16).
• “Then they [Judas was there!] that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God” (Matthew 14:33).
• Matthew 19:27–28 says, “Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye [always plural in the Greek] which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Judas was not faithful unto the end; therefore, he forfeited the promise of a throne in heaven. Judas’ fall did not negate the fact that he was promised a throne. But that promise was conditional, like all God’s promises.
• Judas partook of the Passover. Jesus said of it in Matthew 26:18 “I will keep the Passover at thy house with my ” “Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve” (Matthew 26:20). See Luke 14:25–35 for Jesus’ definition of being His disciple (Love Him with all your heart, deny self, and take up your cross and follow Him, forsaking all else).

“And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him” (John 13:2). Not until after the washing of the disciples’ feet did Satan enter into Judas to execute the betrayal of Jesus (John 13:26–27). This was the second time recorded that Satan entered into Judas. The first time was in Luke 22:3–4 when Judas conspired with the chief priests to betray Jesus. If Satan was always in Judas, why did he need to enter into him on two different occasions?

Judas was not the only one that Satan used so masterfully. What about Peter? When Jesus rebuked him saying, “Get thee behind me, Satan” (Matthew 16:23). Whether Satan entered in or not, he turned Peter so masterfully that Jesus had to address the devil as if Peter was not even there. Does that mean that Peter was not Jesus’ disciple?

What about John 6:70? “Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” This was a future prophecy not yet fulfilled at that time but recorded in the present tense as was Isaiah 9:6 (“For unto us a child is born . . .”). Compare also the terminology in Psalm 41:9 which refers to Jesus and Judas one thousand years later—spoken in the present tense.

In Matthew 17:22–23 Jesus foretells His betrayal. Verse 23 gives the disciples’ response, “And they were exceeding sorry.” Judas was exceeding sorry. He apparently did not know he would be the one to betray Jesus.

Judas was called, commissioned, chosen, and ordained an apostle of Christ by our Lord Himself. He preached repentance, healed the sick, cast out devils, and had the treasury bag. John 4:2 says he baptized others. Mark 9:35–41 says he belonged to Jesus. Note especially verse 35, “the twelve,” and verse 41, “because ye belong to Christ.” He believed on Jesus (John 2:11). John 12:4 says, “Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him.” Both statements in this verse are true. He was a disciple who also then betrayed his Lord, became a devil (John 6:70), a thief (John 12:6), a murderer, and a traitor (someone who once belonged to a person or a cause but betrayed the cause). You can’t betray what you never pledged allegiance to. Through covetousness he was drowned in destruction and perdition (1 Timothy 6:9–10), and through transgression he fell (Acts 1:25). He became lost and the son of perdition (John 17:12), and went to his own place (hell), whereas before his fall he was destined to go to heaven.

These points constitute ample evidence that Judas once belonged to Jesus. Yet he obviously fell from his first love. Many believe that the Scriptures that speak of the end of Judas’ life mean he was always lost and destined for hell from the beginning. But if this is true, then does that mean that all the Scriptures that speak of his belonging to Christ mean he was always saved and went to heaven? Of course not! There is only one logical, Scriptural explanation: he was once saved and became lost. If he had lived and not apostatized, he would have been called a Christian with the other disciples in Acts 11:26. The Bible teaches that throughout the entire Christian life, salvation is conditional and present tense. It also teaches that the saved always have a strong hope for the final inheritance of eternal life. It teaches that salvation comes by faith and repentance that produces good works of obedience through God’s grace and our love for the Lord. We must persevere by God’s power (His part), “through faith” (our part) (1 Peter 1:5). And we are preserved in Jesus Christ our Lord, living for Him (the Word). If we go back to the world (forsaking the Word), we commit spiritual adultery. According to the Scriptures, if we die in this condition of sin, we cannot hope for heaven to be our eternal home. Let us continue to look “unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2), lest we also fall away unto perdition.https://www.anabaptistresources.org/en/resources/details/899/judas-once-saved-forever-lost

hope this helps !!!

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

I'm not saying I agree with this below but here is another side of the argument to contemplate as food for thought.

Then why mention it at all? There are lots of arguments surrounding the sovereignty of God. Mostly proffered by those trying to insert man's will somewhere into the mix. /shrug

I'll stick with "He's sovereign". /hugs

 

[civic]

Then why mention it at all? There are lots of arguments surrounding the sovereignty of God. Mostly proffered by those trying to insert man's will somewhere into the mix. /shrug

I'll stick with "He's sovereign". /hugs

I'm all for Gods sovereignty. I was just providing another POV to consider about judas.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

I'm all for Gods sovereignty. I was just providing another POV to consider about judas.

Sure...trouble is that the Bible says that Judas was on a rail to betrayal.

 

[David1701]

Where do we find this lesser sense in the NT?

Eph. 1:3,4 (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Jesus went to heaven to present the satisfaction of his atonement for the elect.

Heb. 9:11,12
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb. 13:10,11
10 We have an altar, where of they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

As you can see, Jesus took his own blood into the heavenly sanctuary. The benefits of that are given to us through faith in Jesus.

 

[David1701]

I'm not saying I agree with this below but here is another side of the argument to contemplate as food for thought.

Was Lucifer always the Devil? Was he not once a perfect anointed cherub of God who fell through the sin of pride (Isaiah 14:12–15; Ezekiel 28:11–19)? “The angels which kept not their first estate” (Jude 6) also fell from a perfect position. Did not they all possess eternal life in the present tense until it was forfeited? The same can be said of Adam and Eve. Did not they once possess eternal life (present tense) based conditionally upon their obedience? Yes, it is possible to lose eternal life of your own free will. Otherwise these would have never lost their eternal life. How much more are we accountable to God in our present condition of regeneration through the blood of Christ. “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?” (Hebrews 2:3).

What about Judas Iscariot? Some say Judas was never a true apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ. They rightly consider his end but never truly consider what the Bible says about his beginning. Thus many believe he was a false apostle, though not one Scripture calls him a false apostle. He was an apostle who apostatized.

Apostle means one sent forth, while apostate means one going, or gone backward, as abandoning, forsaking one’s profession of faith and practices. As I have heard it termed so many times, only a believer can ever rightly be labeled a backslider. The world or unbeliever can’t apostatize (fall away or go backwards), because an unbeliever has never believed unto salvation in Christ. They can’t fall when they are already fallen. In order to fall you must have a position from which to fall.

Acts 1:16–26 tells of Peter and the disciples choosing another apostle to fill the vacancy left by Judas. Verse 16 speaks of the Scripture being fulfilled that was spoken by the Holy Ghost concerning Judas. Notice verse 17, “For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.” Also notice in verse 20, “And his bishopric [the charge of instructing and governing in spiritual concerns; office] let another take.” Concerning the choosing of a new apostle, verse 25 says, “That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship [the office or dignity of an apostle], from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” How could Judas fall from a position appointed to him by our Lord Himself if he never really was an apostle? According to the scriptures a qualification for a bishop is one who is blameless (1 Timothy 3:2). If a bishop or elder of the church is to be blameless, how much more an apostle who would be a founder of churches. Do we really think Jesus would choose an officer of the church contrary to his Word? Men may, but not our Lord!

On certain occasions such as on the mount of transfiguration, the apostles were called by their specific names such as James, John, and Peter. Very often apostles were named specifically in certain settings of whom Judas was also named specifically and referred to as he who betrayed Jesus. When the Scripture says “his disciples,” “my disciples,” or “the twelve” without specific names, should not we believe that it includes Judas as being numbered with the twelve (Acts 1:17; Matthew 10:1; 11:1; Mark 4:10)? He was part of the ministry from the beginning. It is interesting to note that after Judas betrayed Christ and committed suicide, the Gospel writers refer to the disciples collectively as “the eleven” (Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:9, 33). Henceforth all Scripture quotations in this tract that speak of “his disciples” and especially “the twelve,” include Judas.

In my personal study of Judas, the Lord wanted me, once a believer in unconditional eternal security (“Once Saved, Always Saved”), to see through His Word that Judas was once a believer who apostatized unto perdition. Through that study, the Spirit revealed about eighty-five other verses (not mentioned in this tract) which refer to “his disciples,” of whom Judas was a part. Also found in the four Gospels are eight references to “thy disciples,” nineteen references to “the disciples,” and twenty-one references to “the twelve.”

Psalm 41:9 says of Judas, “Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I trusted which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Notice the expressions in this verse: mine own— double ownership; familiar—intimate, close, unreserved converse; friend—as Abraham was the friend of God; I trusted—the Lord trusted Judas! Jesus also called Judas his friend even after Judas betrayed Him with a kiss (Matthew 26:49–50). Jesus was wounded in the house of His friends (Zechariah 13:6). Jesus never called the Pharisees His friends.

Apostates are those who had mental assent to the truth, then turned away to false teaching.

 

[civic]

Sure...trouble is that the Bible says that Judas was on a rail to betrayal.

Gods foreknowledge and prophecy regarding judas was fulfilled but that doesn't mean he was created that way by being predestined. Would you agree or disagree. judas chose his own path of betrayal.

 

[civic]

Apostates are those who had mental assent to the truth, then turned away to false teaching.

David do you agree the bible is written to believers and for believers ?

And would you agree the warning passages are written to believers ?

1 cor 1-2 make it clear Gods word is foolishness to unbelievers and they cannot understand it right ?

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Gods foreknowledge and prophecy regarding judas was fulfilled but that doesn't mean he was created that way by being predestined. Would you agree or disagree. judas chose his own path of betrayal.

Dunno my friend. What I do know is what Scripture says. Volition didn't enter into this story except in perception. Judas acted within his nature...like all of us. Judas certainly felt responsible. Was certainly held responsible. But even so he could not have avoided what God had planned for him. So I would say that he was certainly created for a particular purpose.

 

[civic]

Dunno my friend. What I do know is what Scripture says. Volition didn't enter into this story except in perception. Judas acted within his nature...like all of us. Judas certainly felt responsible. Was certainly held responsible. But even so he could not have avoided what God had planned for him. So I would say that he was certainly created for a particular purpose.

I agree with you above

Was is planned/predestined or prophesied from Gods foreknowledge ? See the distinction/difference ?

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

I agree with you above

Was is planned/predestined or prophesied from Gods foreknowledge ? See the distinction/difference ?

Nope. What God wills, happens. I don't ascribe to the "long corridor of time" stuff, brother.

 

[Eleanor]

Eph. 1:3,4 (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

That does not present a lesser sense of Christ.

Heb. 9:11,12
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb. 13:10,11
10 We have an altar, where of they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

As you can see, Jesus took his own blood into the heavenly sanctuary. The benefits of that are given to us through faith in Jesus.

Indeed he did, to present the satisfaction of his atoning blood for the elect, which is then applied to them by faith, just as the blood had to be applied as well as shed for actual cleansing in the OT.

 

[Eleanor]

David do you agree the bible is written to believers and for believers ?

And would you agree the warning passages are written to believers ?

1 cor 1-2 make it clear Gods word is foolishness to unbelievers and they cannot understand it right ?

They are written to professing believers.

 

[Eleanor]

Nope. What God wills, happens. I don't ascribe to the "long corridor of time" stuff, brother.

Keeping in mind that God's foreknowledge does not even mean "the long corridors of time."