Free Will

[brightfame52]

None of which necessarily excludes an application of Christ's atonement by faith.

Why would you "reconcile" those who were not "enemies" before you reconciled them?

They are born enemies of God by nature (Eph 2:3), and remain so until the atonement is applied to them by faith.

Faith has nothing to do with being reconciled to God by the death of Christ while enemies. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[brightfame52]

I see you won't answer my question about the lost being children of wrath.

Wrong, the elect were under God's wrath in OT Scripture, it is no different in the NT.

The elect are by nature children of wrath as others, but it says nothing about being under wrath. No elect person in the OT or NT has ever been under Gods wrath , Christs propitiation was good for the OT Saints, they were given Faith in His Blood Rom 3:24-25

4 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

You dont believe OT Saints like Abraham were Justified before God by the Blood of Christ ?

 

[Selah7]

“That the Will is always determined by the strongest motive,”
Edwards.


Does man have free will? I think the question is kind of vague, but I have heard it many times. I have been back and forth on it throughout the years. Presently, I believe man does have free will but, in accordance with his nature. I do not believe the natural man can choose Christ. Faith includes three elements, knowledge, assent, and trust. These three the natural man does not possess about Jesus. Man must be made alive to see the kingdom. Once this takes place through regeneration, and he can see the kingdom, Christ is irresistible.
Then, as Edwards said above, applies as far as spiritual things are concerned.

Before the new birth, man is at enmity with God, and will not choose Him. So it is impossible for the word itself to produce faith in the heart of the natural man. He is determined not to seek God.

Thoughts?

Good morning, Carbon. I believe that anyone who comes to the Lord is elect. From the very beginning, when an elect person hears the Word of God, IT hits home; IT takes hold and is forever written in his —An elect person won’t let go of the gospel of Christ. —

 

[David1701]

First, wrath isn't hate, you're wrong there.

He had wrath on elect Israel in the OT. Psalms and other passages bear this out. You're wrong there too.

But being a chosen nation is not the same as being chosen for salvation.

 

[David1701]

Yes, not all of Israel are Israel.

I've been thinking about the issue we're discussing and, although I've not come to a firm conclusion yet, I have some preliminary thoughts.

Does God treat the unsaved elect and non-elect the same? No, he doesn't.

Jer. 31:3 (KJV) The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

This isn't wrath and condemnation (although they deserved those), nor does it apply to the non-elect.

2 Pet. 3:7-9
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord makes a distinction between the unsaved elect and the non-elect, treating us as "beloved" and being long-suffering towards us, in a way that means that we don't perish but all come to repentance. That the long-suffering shown the elect is different from that shown to the non-elect, is clear from verse 15.

2 Pet. 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

 

[Selah7]

But being a chosen nation is not the same as being chosen for salvation.

I agree. I believe election is on an individual basis only. He calls out His children one by one.

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

- Romans 11:7

But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. "For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

- Acts 9:15-16

 

[Alive]

The story of Abraham is truly amazing. He called a pagan from a pagan place and made remarkable promises to him and from the loins of that pagan unbeliever came the Messiah. How did that pagan come to ‘believe’ God and become the father of the faithful? Amazing! The father of a chosen Nation dear to the heart of Almighty God.
Special and unique indeed. It ain’t over yet.

 

[Carbon]

Good morning, Carbon.

Good morning.

I believe that anyone who comes to the Lord is elect.

I can’t disagree with that.

From the very beginning, when an elect person hears the Word of God, IT hits home;

Okay. You may be right. There could be a mystery there for me that I just don’t know about.

IT takes hold and is forever written in his —An elect person won’t let go of the gospel of Christ. —

Interesting

 

[Carbon]

Reader,

so, what we are dealing with, is a very simple misunderstanding that is where Calvin lost the trail, and created a theological ditch that has captured millions of people.
Even unbelievers are lost in John Calvinism..

"It was all meant to be"... "Yep, i was supposed to get this cancer".... "Yep, i was supposed to kill 6 million jews"..
"all decided for me"..."im just a meat puppet hanging on cosmic strings"

J. Calvin... simply could not comprehend that : God knowing everything before it happens,......FOREKNOWLEDGE... is not the same as God causing it to happen.

So, If you use that understanding, that is true, to objectively look at how Calvin dealt with the Cross, individual salvation, vs how the verses are written, paying attention to how he restyles them to teach Foreknowledge as Pre-destined, then it becomes crystal clear that this man deeply offended the Cross, and ultimately denies the Grace of God.

Calvin's heresy is that he redefined God's Fore-Knowledge as '"pre-determined"" and that is a CULT theology that is a Cancer on the Body of Christ.

The other thing to consider, is.... why would Christianity come under the total influence of Joseph and John. ???
Who decided that, nonsense?

Yet millions of believers are indoctrinated by these two people.

Reader.......Jesus is not a Calvinist, nor is His Father, nor is the Apostle Paul.
If you are one, then you were taught to be one by a John Calvinist, and never deny it, or you're lying to yourself.

Reader, its PAUL who is our Teacher, in "the time of the Gentiles", as He is the chosen "apostle to the gentiles".
Paul is our Teacher, Paul wrote the "church Doctrine", and the Holy Spirit is the REVEALER of Paul's Theology.
John Calvin is the ENEMY of Paul the Apostle's Theology.
Thats a eternal fact.

So, just remember, ..

Calvin, redefined God's Foreknowledge as "Pre-destined" and then rewrote much of the NT that deals with Soteriology, as "Calvinism".

Just look at it from that lens and you'll see what this Heretic has created as his "Cross limiting" "Grace limiting" , John 3:16 limiting.... 2 Corinthians 5:19 = limiting, theology.


"doctrine of Devils'...

Hebrews 13:9

Behold, is there something you would like to discuss other than bashing the man John Calvin? I hope so.
I’ve had my fill of people who all they do is bash Calvin. This is not a Calvin bashing site.

Thanks

 

[Behold]

The rest of the post #109 above:

@Behold said: He (Calvin) redefined "Fore Knowledge" as "God Causes", and away he went....

Eleanor replies:The first things we must do is look at how the word "foreknowledge" (Gr: prognosis) is used in the Bible, and it is used only of divine foreknowledge, of God foreknowing his actions. It is not used of God foreknowing man's actions.
And Gd knows in advance (foreknowledge) what is going to happen because he himself has decreed before the foundations of the world that it shall happen.
Divine foreknowledge is not God causing it to happen, it is God knowing in advance what will happen, because he has decreed that it shall happen.
Divine foreknowledge (prognosis) in the NT, as distinct from man's foreknowledge, is God foreknowing his own actions, it is not God causing them, for they were already caused, which is why he foreknows them.

Yes.

God's Foreknowledge, is the Bible's prophecy.
Its the same.
= Showing what is to come....

The Bible is the written progressive REVELATION... its the REVEALING of "what God has done... is doing, and will do...

Its that simple.

= here is the future, in a Holy book

= God's foreknowledge, in a Holy book.

Its the "upcoming schedule" regarding 'what happens next", till the end of TIME., in a HOLY BOOK.

AND SO......

There are pre-determined eternal outcomes, regarding : UNBELIEF vs BELIEF.... In Christ Jesus.

And those outcomes are pre-determined, and that is all.

Reader, its like this... if you get on a Roller Coaster, you KNOW the outcome, is to ride it till it stops.
That is your Foreknowledge.
Are you "pre-destined" to get on it?
(Edit by mod)

So, God FOREKNOWS, that He has created a final outcome that is the eternal destination, of "unbelievers" vs "believers".

1.) Hell , then the lake of fire, and all this is all the 2nd Death = Unbelief

2.) Heaven, then New Jerusalem//Millennial reign, etc, etc. = Faith in Christ

God had all that in His MIND, (FOREKNOWLEDGE).....before Lucifer decided to try to take over Heaven itself.

Hell and the Lake of fire, were created before ADAM was created.... Reader.

(Edit by mod) , FOREKNOWLEDGE< is not God causing it to happen. "Pre-destined".
And neither can his indoctrinated disciples, until they SEE THE REVELATION.

(Edit by mod)

 

[Selah7]

@Behold If you will, please post just one verse or passage of scripture that uses the word “foreknowledge“ other than in reference to election. Thank you.

 

[Reformedguy]

Yes.

God's Foreknowledge, is the Bible's prophecy.
Its the same.
= Showing what is to come....

The Bible is the written progressive REVELATION... its the REVEALING of "what God has done... is doing, and will do...

Its that simple.

= here is the future, in a Holy book

= God's foreknowledge, in a Holy book.

Its the "upcoming schedule" regarding 'what happens next", till the end of TIME., in a HOLY BOOK.

AND SO......

There are pre-determined eternal outcomes, regarding : UNBELIEF vs BELIEF.... In Christ Jesus.

And those outcomes are pre-determined, and that is all.

Reader, its like this... if you get on a Roller Coaster, you KNOW the outcome, is to ride it till it stops.
That is your Foreknowledge.
Are you "pre-destined" to get on it?
See that nonsense?
Welcome to John Calvinism.

So, God FOREKNOWS, that He has created a final outcome that is the eternal destination, of "unbelievers" vs "believers".

1.) Hell , then the lake of fire, and all this is all the 2nd Death = Unbelief

2.) Heaven, then New Jerusalem//Millennial reign, etc, etc. = Faith in Christ

God had all that in His MIND, (FOREKNOWLEDGE).....before Lucifer decided to try to take over Heaven itself.

Hell and the Lake of fire, were created before ADAM was created.... Reader.

Calvin, could not understand that What God knew would happen, FOREKNOWLEDGE< is not God causing it to happen. "Pre-destined".
And neither can his indoctrinated disciples, until they SEE THE REVELATION.

And when a Calvinist gets that revelation, then Thank you Jesus,..., as this Light is their Deliverance from the CROSS DENYING Heresy that is John Calvinism.

If God simply knew what would happen then there are two ultimate causes in the universe??

 

[Selah7]

@Behold How do you interpret Romans 8:28-30.
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)

 

[Eleanor]

Faith has nothing to do with being reconciled to God by the death of Christ while enemies. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

How so?

How is the death of his Son applied?

 

[Eleanor]

The word ALL is ambiguous. It can mean without exception or without distinction. The rest of the verse shows this to be true.
The entire verse says: 18 So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

If you read the verse with ALL meaning without exception then the 2nd ALL would support universalism.

Again, I am not sure why you are bringing up the verse.

... ah, bedtime

In response to your comment that the elect were never under the wrath of God.

The NT presents condemnation for all men at the trespass of Adam (Ro 5:18).

Ro 5:18-19 are contrasting parallels between the two Adam's.
All those in the first Adam are condemned/sinners, while all those in the second Adam (Christ) are justified/righteous.

 

[Eleanor]

You not following Paul, he said nothing about anyone being under Gods wrath. A Nature like the rest of mankind, but thats different.

The elect are reconciled to God while enemies not under Gods wrath.

The elect are redeemed (bought back) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, that's true "in Adam", but we were also "in Christ", having been chosen in him, before the foundation of the world.

I have a nascent idea about this, but I'm too tired just now, so I'll sleep on it.

As with everything else created, Mary was chosen to be the mother of the Messiah before the foundations of the world, but she was not the mother of the Messiah until she conceived him in time.
I was sovereignly chosen before the foundations of the world to be a son of God, but I was not a son of God until my rebirth by the Holy Spirit in time.

Don't confound eternity (timelessness) with time.

 

[David1701]

I agree. I believe election is on an individual basis only. He calls out His children one by one.

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

- Romans 11:7

But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. "For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

- Acts 9:15-16

There are different kinds of election, in the Bible; but, yes, election to salvation is of individuals.

 

[David1701]

As with everything else created, Mary was chosen to be the mother of the Messiah before the foundations of the world, but she was not the mother of the Messiah until she conceived him in time.
I was sovereignly chosen before the foundations of the world to be a son of God, but I was not a son of God until my rebirth by the Holy Spirit in time.

Don't confound eternity (timelessness) with time.

I'm not confounding eternity with time. I know that blessings are applied to us, in time, based on the eternal purpose of God. In the eternal purpose of God, the elect were chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world; so, in that sense, we have always been in Christ; however, in time, when we are born again and believe in Jesus, we experience the blessings of that.

 

[Eleanor]

Faith has nothing to do with being reconciled to God by the death of Christ while enemies. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Then you don't know your NT.

The death of Christ is not applied to us until faith.

To be God's enemy and to be under his wrath are the same thing.