Free Will

[fastfredy0]

Re: the possibility that Judas in heaven
Matt. 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man [Judas] by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

Premise 1: Those in heaven are happy
Premise 2: People who wish they were never born are not happy
Conclusion: Judas is in Hell

Aside: It would SUCK BIG TIME to be the other disciple named Judas on social media.

 

[Arial]

I know. It was a satirical comment that I read somewhere, and it appeals to my dry sense of humour.

I should have caught that. Shame on me, a member of the queen's court of satirical, ironic, dry humor.

 

[Carbon]

Re: the possibility that Judas in heaven
Matt. 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man [Judas] by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

Premise 1: Those in heaven are happy
Premise 2: People who wish they were never born are not happy
Conclusion: Judas is in Hell

Aside: It would SUCK BIG TIME to be the other disciple named Judas on social media.

Jesus called him the son of perdition (eternally dammed) that should be good enough. Called for a purpose, never saved. God lifted His had of sustaining grace allowing Judas to be more of his self, betraying Jesus.

 

[brightfame52]

This is where you are incorrect and so are others who made the same error.

Psalm 88:7 refutes you, as well as Psalm 78. And there are many more OT texts that do the same. Getting better acquainted with Scripture instead of hyper-Calvinism would help you tremendously.

Also, there is a huge misunderstanding of wrath by many believers as they can only fathom it in the sense of extreme judgment; vials and bowls types of judgments. The fact remains that in the OT God's wrath was kindled against all Israel and He judged them through other nations attacking them and taking them captive. The elect among them also.

Not the same thing. You may need to get better acquainted with scripture to understand Gods wrath.

 

[brightfame52]

How so?

How is the death of his Son applied?

What you mean how so, because the scripture said so Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[brightfame52]

The elect are redeemed (bought back) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).

The elect are reconciled to God while being enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10 So they arent under Gods wrath as unbelievers and reconciled to God as unbelievers at the same time.

 

[brightfame52]

Then you don't know your NT.

The death of Christ is not applied to us until faith.

To be God's enemy and to be under his wrath are the same thing.

It has been applied without faith, since the elect are reconciled to God while being enemies/unbelievers. How are they reconciled to God according to Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, we (the elect) only get the full benefits of our reconciliation, when we believe, partly because we are still enemies towards God, until we're born again; however, God was reconciled towards us, when Jesus died on the cross, bearing our sins and punishments.

Correct, so therefore not under His Wrath

 

[David1701]

David do you agree the bible is written to believers and for believers ?

And would you agree the warning passages are written to believers ?

1 cor 1-2 make it clear Gods word is foolishness to unbelievers and they cannot understand it right ?

I believe that the Bible is written primarily to and for believers, but not exclusively.

Some warnings are definitely for unbelievers and some for believers.

Unbelievers can understand some of the Bible (narrative, history and moral teaching especially), but not everything.

 

[David1701]

That does not present a lesser sense of Christ.

Not a lesser sense of Christ (actually, we had not sense of Christ at all, when we were chosen in him, because we didn't exist yet), but a blessing in an earlier stage of fulfilment.

Indeed he did, to present the satisfaction of his atoning blood for the elect, which is then applied to them by faith, just as the blood had to be applied as well as shed for actual cleansing in the OT.

If we take the illustration of the Passover, the blood was applied, not to the people, but to the wooden doorposts. The avenging angel saw the shed blood and didn't harm the people inside. Jesus is the Lamb of God and his blood was shed on the wooden cross. We are safe in him

 

[brightfame52]

Not a lesser sense of Christ (actually, we had not sense of Christ at all, when we were chosen in him, because we didn't exist yet), but a blessing in an earlier stage of fulfilment.


If we take the illustration of the Passover, the blood was applied, not to the people, but to the wooden doorposts. The avenging angel saw the shed blood and didn't harm the people inside. Jesus is the Lamb of God and his blood was shed on the wooden cross. We are safe in him

God said when I see the Blood I will passover you. So when did God see the Blood of Christ shed for His People ?

 

[Eleanor]

What you mean how so, because the scripture said so Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So all men, being enemies of God, were reconciled to God by his death, and all men are now saved?

 

[Selah7]

So all men, being enemies of God, were reconciled to God by his death, and all men are now saved?

not unless they believe in Christ Jesus.

 

[civic]

not unless they believe in Christ Jesus.

The other poster is claiming faith is not necessary

 

[Eleanor]

The elect are reconciled to God while being enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10 So they arent under Gods wrath as unbelievers and reconciled to God as unbelievers at the same time.

Please present where the apsotles teach this.

 

[brightfame52]

So all men, being enemies of God, were reconciled to God by his death, and all men are now saved?

No, this pertains to Gods elect.

 

[brightfame52]

Please present where the apsotles teach this.

I just quoted Rom 5:10 written by the Apostle Paul

 

[Eleanor]

The elect are reconciled to God while being enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10 So they arent under Gods wrath as unbelievers and reconciled to God as unbelievers at the same time.

It has been applied without faith, since the elect are reconciled to God while being enemies/unbelievers. How are they reconciled to God according to Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ro 5:9-10:
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

How do your responses relate to Ro 5:9-10?

 

[Eleanor]

It has been applied without faith, since the elect are reconciled to God while being enemies/unbelievers. How are they reconciled to God according to Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Not a lesser sense of Christ (actually, we had not sense of Christ at all, when we were chosen in him, because we didn't exist yet), but a blessing in an earlier stage of fulfilment.


If we take the illustration of the Passover, the blood was applied, not to the people, but to the wooden doorposts. The avenging angel saw the shed blood and didn't harm the people inside. Jesus is the Lamb of God and his blood was shed on the wooden cross. We are safe in him

The Passover is not the type/model of Jesus' atonement.

The OT sacrificial system is that type/model.

 

[David1701]

So all men, being enemies of God, were reconciled to God by his death, and all men are now saved?

No; but, all those for whom Christ died will be saved, because they were reconciled to God, on the cross.