For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God: The Father or the Lord Jesus?

[Fred]

For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God, the Father is the Creator and Jesus is a creature - no matter how highly exalted, He (Jesus) is still a created being. Yet in quite a few places in the New Testament the authors don't clearly distinguish as to whether or not they are referring to the Father (the Creator) or to the Lord Jesus ('the creature' for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God).
There is a vast difference between the Creator and the creature. To confuse the two could easily lead to idolatry. This is something the biblical authors (of course, God as well) would never want to happen. Therefore, to clearly identify to whom is being referred to is of vital importance.


So for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God please identify to whom is being referred to in all the passages below. It may take some time, but it took me quite a bit of time putting this list together.


John 7:18 (He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him)

Acts 1:24 (Lord)
Acts 2:20 (Lord)
Acts 2:21 (Lord)
Acts 2:25 (Lord)
Acts 2:47 (Lord)
Acts 5:9 (Lord)
Acts 5:41 (Name)
Acts 7:60 (Lord)
Acts 8:22 (Lord
Acts 8:24 (Lord)
Acts 9:1 (Lord)
Acts 9:28 (Lord)
Acts 9:31 (Lord)
Acts 9:35 (Lord)
Acts 9:42 (Lord)
Acts 10:14 (Lord)
Acts 10:33 (Lord)
Acts 11:21 (Lord X2)
Acts 11:23 (Lord)
Acts 11:24 (Lord)
Acts 12:11 (Lord; His)
Acts 13:2 (Lord)
Acts 14:3 (Lord)
Acts 14:23 (Lord)
Acts 15:40 (Lord)
Acts 16:14 (Lord)
Acts 21:14 (Lord)

Romans 8:27 (He who searches the hearts)
Romans 9:33 (Him)
Romans 10:11 (Him)
Romans 10:12 (Him)
Romans 10:13 (Lord)
Romans 10:14 (Him X2)
Romans 12:11 (Lord)

1 Corinthians 1:31 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 2:16 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 4:4 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 4:5 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 4:19 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 6:17 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 10:9 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 10:21 (Lord X2)
1 Corinthians 10:22 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 10:26 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 11:32 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 14:37 (Lord's)
1 Corinthians 15:58 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 16:7 (Lord)

2 Corinthians 3:16 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 3:17 (Lord X2)
2 Corinthians 3:18 (Lord X 2)
2 Corinthians 5:11 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 8:5 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 8:19 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 8:21 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 10:8 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 10:17 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 10:18 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 12:1 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 12:8 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 13:10 (Lord)

Galatians 2:8 (He)

Ephesians 2:21 (Lord)
Ephesians 6:9 (Master)
Ephesians 6:10 (Lord)

Colossians 1:10 (Lord)
Colossians 1:22 (Him)
Colossians 1:29 (His)
Colossians 3:22 (Lord)
Colossians 4:1 (Master)

1 Thessalonians 4:6 (Lord)
1 Thessalonians 5:24 (He X2)
1 Thessalonians 5:27 (Lord)

2 Thessalonians 3:1 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:3 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:4 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:5 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:16 (Lord X2)

1 Timothy 1:14 (Lord)
1 Timothy 6:15 (Lord)

2 Timothy 1:12 (He; Him)
2 Timothy 1:16 (Lord)
2 Timothy 1:18 (Lord X2)
2 Timothy 2:7 (Lord)
2 Timothy 2:11 (Him X2)
2 Timothy 2:12 (Him X2; He)
2 Timothy 2:13 (He X2; Himself)
2 Timothy 2:19 (Lord X2)
2 Timothy 2:21 (Master)
2 Timothy 2:22 (Lord)
2 Timothy 2:24 (Lord)
2 Timothy 3:11 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:8 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:14 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:17 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:18 (Lord)

Titus 2:14 (Himself X2; His)

Hebrews 1:10 (Lord)
Hebrews 10:37 (He)
Hebrews 12:14 (Lord)

James 2:7 (Name)
James 4:10 (Lord)
James 4:12 (Lawgiver and Judge)
James 4:15 (Lord)
James 5:7 (Lord)
James 5:8 (Lord)
James 5:9 (Judge)
James 5:10 (Lord)
James 5:11 (Lord's; Lord)
James 5:14 (Lord)
James 5:15 (Lord)

1 Peter 2:6 (Him)
1 Peter 2:25 (Shepherd and Guardian)
1 Peter 3:12 (Lord X2)
1 Peter 3:15 (Lord)
1 Peter 4:5 (Him)

2 Peter 2:1 (Master)
2 Peter 2:9 (Lord)
2 Peter 2:11 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:8 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:9 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:10 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:14 (Him)
2 Peter 3:15 (Lord)

1 John 2:3 (Him; His)
1 John 2:4 (Him; His)
1 John 2:5 (His; Him)
1 John 2:6 (Him; He)
1 John 2:8 (Him)
1 John 2:12 (His)
1 John 2:13 (Him)
1 John 2:14 (Him)
1 John 2:20 (Holy One)
1 John 2:25 (He)
1 John 2:27 (Him; His; Him)
1 John 2:28 (Him; He; Him; His)
1 John 2:29 (He; Him)
1 John 3:2 (He; Him X2; He)
1 John 3:3 (Him; He)
1 John 3:5 (He; Him)
1 John 3:6 (Him X3)
1 John 3:7 (He)
1 John 3:24 (His; Him; He X3)
1 John 4:4 (He)
1 John 4:13 (Him; He X2; His)
1 John 4:17 (He)
1 John 4:19 (He)
1 John 4:21 (Him)
1 John 5:14 (Him; His; He)
1 John 5:15 (He; Him)
1 John 5:20 (Him X2; He)

3 John 7 (Name)

Jude 4 (Master; Lord)
Jude 5 (Lord)
Jude 14 (Lord)

Revelation 1:6 (Him)
Revelation 6:10 (Master)
Revelation 11:15 (He)
Revelation 14:13 (Lord)
Revelation 18:4 (My)
Revelation 20:6 (Him)
Revelation 22:3 (His; Him)
Revelation 22:4 (His; His)
Revelation 22:12 (To whom do the pronouns refer to?)
Revelation 22:13 (To whom do the appellations refer to?)

 

[Runningman]

The Lord of Jesus is God.

Matt 11​

25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.​

Peter and John don't believe Jesus is the Sovereign Lord of who created heaven and earth. They believe Jesus is the servant of YHWH.

Acts 4​

23On their release, Peter and John returned to their own people and reported everything that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.​

27In fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed. ​

 

[Fred]

Sovereign Lord

The same Greek word is used in reference to Jesus in Jude 4.



Furthermore, you ignored this from the OP:
"So for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God please identify to whom is being referred to in all the passages below."

You wouldn't specify for all the passages listed to whom is being referred to because your ability to properly differentiate between your creator and your creature-jesus would be a disaster.

So you simply avoided doing so.

You can stop hiding now.


Let's see how many posts will be in this thread before any person who denies the Lord Jesus is God completes the entire list from the OP.

 

[Runningman]

The same Greek word is used in reference to Jesus in Jude 4.



Furthermore, you ignored this from the OP:
"So for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God please identify to whom is being referred to in all the passages below."

You wouldn't specify for all the passages listed to whom is being referred to because your ability to properly differentiate between your creator and your creature-jesus would be a disaster.

So you simply avoided doing so.

You can stop hiding now.


Let's see how many posts will be in this thread before any person who denies the Lord Jesus is God completes the entire list from the OP.

That isn't how Greek or really any languages work. There isn't a special variant of the word Lord that is specifically assigned to Jesus. The same word also applies to humans in the New Testament, but you seem to have conveniently not mentioned that. I wonder why.

 

[Fred]

That isn't how Greek or really any languages work.

You mean works.

The same word also applies to humans in the New Testament,

Bot other people are not the despotēs of all other people.


Your two responses were two dodges from the passages in the OP.

 

[Fred]

I hope all the passages in the OP can be addressed before page 2 of this thread.

 

[Runningman]

I hope all the passages in the OP can be addressed before page 2 of this thread.

Soundly refuted in post #2. Nothing more to add.

 

[Fred]

Soundly refuted in post #2.

Replace "refuted" with "dodged."

There. Fixed it for ya.

 

[Runningman]

Replace "refuted" with "dodged."

There. Fixed it for ya.

Keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep better at night.

 

[Fred]

Here we are at post 10 and the passages from the OP have not been addressed.

Thise who deny the Lord Jesus is God are at a loss in being able to differentiate between their creator and their creature-jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Here we are at post 10 and the passages from the OP have not been addressed.

Thise who deny the Lord Jesus is God are at a loss in being able to differentiate between their creator and their creature-jesus.

Jesus is a human made out of the same material all humans are. He was created. You have an idol.

 

[Fred]

Jesus is a human made out of the same material all humans are. He was created. You have an idol.

Post 12.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus is a human made out of the same material all humans are. He was created. You have an idol.

I'll grant you that...Jesus is flesh....born of Mary and placed in a manger. The Kings from the east came to check Him out.

But, is that all Jesus was? Flesh? Bones? Blood?

From what I understand I have a spirit, you have a spirit and so did Jesus during His incarnation. Right? Am I wrong?

John tells us in John 1 that the Word is God...then became flesh...the addition of the human nature to the divine nature of the Word....That is, Spirit combined with flesh, bones and blood.

How is worshiping the Jesus presented above... described in the bible as such... an idol?

 

[makesends]

I'll grant you that...Jesus is flesh....born of Mary and placed in a manger. The Kings from the east came to check Him out.

But, is that all Jesus was? Flesh? Bones? Blood?

From what I understand I have a spirit, you have a spirit and so did Jesus during His incarnation. Right? Am I wrong?

John tells us in John 1 that the Word is God...then became flesh...the addition of the human nature to the divine nature of the Word....That is, Spirit combined with flesh, bones and blood.

How is worshiping the Jesus presented above... described in the bible as such... an idol?

Immanuel. Prophesied in the Old Testament to be the Messiah. GOD with us.

 

[Runningman]

Immanuel. Prophesied in the Old Testament to be the Messiah. GOD with us.

Actually read what the Old Testament says regarding Immanuel. It proves he isn't God. God doesn't need time to know to reject evil and choose good.

Isaiah 7
14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. 15By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey.

 

[Runningman]

I'll grant you that...Jesus is flesh....born of Mary and placed in a manger. The Kings from the east came to check Him out.

But, is that all Jesus was? Flesh? Bones? Blood?

From what I understand I have a spirit, you have a spirit and so did Jesus during His incarnation. Right? Am I wrong?

John tells us in John 1 that the Word is God...then became flesh...the addition of the human nature to the divine nature of the Word....That is, Spirit combined with flesh, bones and blood.

How is worshiping the Jesus presented above... described in the bible as such... an idol?

The word (logos) isn't a person, it's an an it according to 1 John 1:1-2. Jesus is a he. Where you are misunderstanding this is that you assumed Jesus had a literal pre-existence in scripture but he doesn't, i.e., you can't produce any verses about Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. When the logos became flesh is when he came into existence. God wasn't created, Jesus was.

 

[CrowCross]

The word (logos) isn't a person,

Then neiher is God.

it's an an it according to 1 John 1:1-2.

Where? Show me the words.

Jesus is a he. Where you are misunderstanding this is that you assumed Jesus had a literal pre-existence in scripture but he doesn't,

Jesus had a pre-existance....He prayed the following about His pre-existance...And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

i.e., you can't produce any verses about Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. When the logos became flesh is when he came into existence. God wasn't created, Jesus was.

The Word..Logos always existed....and added to it's resistance humanity.

 

[CrowCross]

Actually read what the Old Testament says regarding Immanuel. It proves he isn't God. God doesn't need time to know to reject evil and choose good.

Isaiah 7
14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. 15By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey.

Can you tell us what Immanuel means?

 

[Runningman]

Then neiher is God.

God is a person according to Hebrews.

Hebrews 1
3who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Where? Show me the words.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

Jesus had a pre-existance....He prayed the following about His pre-existance...And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

Jesus didn't exist before the world. That's why you won't find any references to him saying or doing anything in the Bible before his birth. Revelation 13:8 clears what Jesus meant by "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed." The glory he was referring to is the crucifixion and he had not yet been crucified, hence why Revelation 13:8 didn't actually happen yet. It refers to God's foreknowledge and pre-destination.
Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

The Word..Logos always existed....and added to it's resistance humanity.

?

 

[Runningman]

Can you tell us what Immanuel means?

The name means God was with Jesus and the other people there.

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.