For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God: The Father or the Lord Jesus?

[makesends]

Actually read what the Old Testament says regarding Immanuel. It proves he isn't God. God doesn't need time to know to reject evil and choose good.

Isaiah 7
14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. 15By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey.

How does that "prove" that he isn't God?

 

[Runningman]

How does that "prove" that he isn't God?

God doesn't need time to know to reject evil and choose good.

 

[makesends]

God doesn't need time to know to reject evil and choose good.

No. But the man, Jesus, did need to learn,
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; — ("grasped" in more literal translations)
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

(But, just to prepare you, you may run into others who will show you that the part about learning 'to reject evil and choose good' refers to the son of Isaiah and "the prophetess" in chapter 8 and what would happen at that time.)

 

[Runningman]

No. But the man, Jesus, did need to learn,
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; — ("grasped" in more literal translations)
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

(But, just to prepare you, you may run into others who will show you that the part about learning 'to reject evil and choose good' refers to the son of Isaiah and "the prophetess" in chapter 8 and what would happen at that time.)

Thank you. Then I will take that as you rescinding that Immanuel is the "God with us" according to what you had originally said in post #14.

God was already with them before Jesus the man was born. The name Immanuel just gives attention to that fact. It isn't that God was no where on or near planet earth until Jesus was born.

 

[makesends]

Thank you. Then I will take that as you rescinding that Immanuel is the "God with us" according to what you had originally said in post #14.

Haha! So, you can't show where what I said is me rescinding that Immanuel is the "God with us" according to what I had originally said in post #14. All you have to do is assert it; pretend that I am rescinding, and you win!!!! Hahaha!!!!

God was already with them before Jesus the man was born. The name Immanuel just gives attention to that fact. It isn't that God was no where on or near planet earth until Jesus was born.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus didn't exist before the world.

I've already shown you Jesus ws the creator of the world. Through him (the Word) all things were made...without him nothing was made that has been made. In him all things were created...things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities...all things have been created through him and for him. Jesus was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. (you still don't recognize Jesus). In order for the preceeding to have occurred Jesus had to have existed prior to Gen 1...though not in His incarnate form.

 

[CrowCross]

The name means God was with Jesus and the other people there.

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

Isaiah had a prophecy which was fulfilled by Jesus... because He was literally “God with us”....He was fully human yet still fully God.

 

[Runningman]

I've already shown you Jesus ws the creator of the world. Through him (the Word) all things were made...without him nothing was made that has been made. In him all things were created...things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities...all things have been created through him and for him. Jesus was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. (you still don't recognize Jesus). In order for the preceeding to have occurred Jesus had to have existed prior to Gen 1...though not in His incarnate form.

No, verse 15 of Colossians 1 says that the Son is himself created, the firstborn of [God's] creation. The context refers to the creation of the church. None of this happened until he was a human then it didn't happen before he was born therefore it doesn't apply to what you're proposing. See verse 19,20.

19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

Hebrews 1:2 says the same exact thing, just worded differently. God didn't speak through the Son until "these last days" then he didn't create through the Son until these last days, i.e., the earth wasn't created some 2,000 or so years ago in Israel. It refers to the "ages" being created through Christ, the church age/Messianic age.

Hebrews 1
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

 

[CrowCross]

No, verse 15 of Colossians 1 says that the Son is himself created, the firstborn of [God's] creation. The context refers to the creation of the church. None of this happened until he was a human then it didn't happen before he was born therefore it doesn't apply to what you're proposing. See verse 19,20.

19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

Hebrews 1:2 says the same exact thing, just worded differently. God didn't speak through the Son until "these last days" then he didn't create through the Son until these last days, i.e., the earth wasn't created some 2,000 or so years ago in Israel. It refers to the "ages" being created through Christ, the church age/Messianic age.

Hebrews 1
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

You have claimed that Paul’s description of Christ as the firstborn of creation means that Jesus was created—not eternal, not God. Such a doctrine, however, conflicts with the rest of the Bible in several places. It seems that with your teachings contradictions are accepted. John 1 alone shows Jesus was prior to the creation of the Church....you can't twist all the verses.

The word "4416. prototokos"....firstborn....as seen in the Greek means much, much more that you limit the word too.....the word signifies priority....Did you know that? You can click on the link and read about it if you like.

Did you know in the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child? ref Firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership. I trust you stand corrected.

Jesus ws the creator of the world. Through him (the Word) all things were made...without him nothing was made that has been made. In him all things were created...things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities...all things have been created through him and for him. Jesus was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. (you still don't recognize Jesus). In order for the preceeding to have occurred Jesus had to have existed prior to Gen 1...though not in His incarnate form.

 

[Runningman]

You have claimed that Paul’s description of Christ as the firstborn of creation means that Jesus was created—not eternal, not God. Such a doctrine, however, conflicts with the rest of the Bible in several places. It seems that with your teachings contradictions are accepted. John 1 alone shows Jesus was prior to the creation of the Church....you can't twist all the verses.

The word "4416. prototokos"....firstborn....as seen in the Greek means much, much more that you limit the word too.....the word signifies priority....Did you know that? You can click on the link and read about it if you like.

Did you know in the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child? ref Firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership. I trust you stand corrected.

A firstborn is not above his Father. In this case that would be God. That means Jesus isn't God. Only God is eternal, therefore Jesus isn't God.

Jesus ws the creator of the world. Through him (the Word) all things were made...without him nothing was made that has been made. In him all things were created...things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities...all things have been created through him and for him. Jesus was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. (you still don't recognize Jesus). In order for the preceeding to have occurred Jesus had to have existed prior to Gen 1...though not in His incarnate form.

The passage you're quoting says that none of it happened until his blood on the cross. That means it didn't happen at the beginning of the creation of the material, physical, world. This is about the creation of the church. If you don't look at the entire context and just separate choice verses out of context, you'll continue to misunderstand this.

 

[CrowCross]

A firstborn is not above his Father. In this case that would be God. That means Jesus isn't God. Only God is eternal, therefore Jesus isn't God.

The passage you're quoting says that none of it happened until his blood on the cross. That means it didn't happen at the beginning of the creation of the material, physical, world. This is about the creation of the church. If you don't look at the entire context and just separate choice verses out of context, you'll continue to misunderstand this.

I'm trying to understand your "logic" and don't see it. Every time we see where Jesus created...it doesn't mean the Church.

 

[Mr GLee]

John 7:18 (He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him)

Acts 1:24 (Lord)
Acts 2:20 (Lord)
Acts 2:21 (Lord)
Acts 2:25 (Lord)

I would offer.

Note. . . (purple) my offering or understanding.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself (dying mankind )seeketh his own glory: but he (Jesus dying man ) that seeketh his (father) glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Mankind dead in tresspases and sin without God in this present age.Some were raised to newness of born again life . You could say like Lazarus ." Lazarus" I lovely command you. . . rise and receive new life .

Dying mankind must be born again from above.Below they prayed thou Lord not seen . Not thou son of man, Jesus the temporal seen .

Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

One thing I would add is to remember it was a three day and night "demonstration" promised in Genesis 3 and again in Isaiah 53 .not the . God used man to outwardly demonstrate his invisible power to raise dying mankind. Yoked with him our burden can be lighter.if we do not harden our new hearts.

A "demonstration" of the unseen work of the father. . the lamb slain from the foundation of the world .The six days he did work out our salvation. You could say with trembling and fear the great trust of God working in and with the creature

I would think the god of this word would acedit the work to the hands as a will dying hands of mankind and not our Holy Father, not seen, eternal God .Peter in Matthew 16 is used as a example of what not to do. . . rebuke the Lord and forbid the Son of man from doing the will of the father, God in return rebuked Satan the god of this world in effect saying "get behind me not seen the understanding Christ faith . faith to faith, the unseen things of God and not behind mankind Peter seen. Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus

.That 33 year window closed when Jesus disappeared. Today blasphemy against the unseen Holy Father no forgiveness

 

[Fred]

I would offer.

Note. . . (purple) my offering or understanding.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself (dying mankind )seeketh his own glory: but he (Jesus dying man ) that seeketh his (father) glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Mankind dead in tresspases and sin without God in this present age.Some were raised to newness of born again life . You could say like Lazarus ." Lazarus" I lovely command you. . . rise and receive new life .

Dying mankind must be born again from above.Below they prayed thou Lord not seen . Not thou son of man, Jesus the temporal seen .

Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

One thing I would add is to remember it was a three day and night "demonstration" promised in Genesis 3 and again in Isaiah 53 .not the . God used man to outwardly demonstrate his invisible power to raise dying mankind. Yoked with him our burden can be lighter.if we do not harden our new hearts.

A "demonstration" of the unseen work of the father. . the lamb slain from the foundation of the world .The six days he did work out our salvation. You could say with trembling and fear the great trust of God working in and with the creature

I would think the god of this word would acedit the work to the hands as a will dying hands of mankind and not our Holy Father, not seen, eternal God .Peter in Matthew 16 is used as a example of what not to do. . . rebuke the Lord and forbid the Son of man from doing the will of the father, God in return rebuked Satan the god of this world in effect saying "get behind me not seen the understanding Christ faith . faith to faith, the unseen things of God and not behind mankind Peter seen. Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus

.That 33 year window closed when Jesus disappeared. Today blasphemy against the unseen Holy Father no forgiveness

Okay. Thanks for your response.

I do know the JW's went back and forth concerning John 7:18.

Your affirmation that the Lord in Acts 1:24 refers to Jesus is correct.

 

[Mr GLee]

Okay. Thanks for your response.

I do know the JW's went back and forth concerning John 7:18.

Your affirmation that the Lord in Acts 1:24 refers to Jesus is correct.

Thanks I would ask the lord of lords the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit of the a Holy Father ? Or the dying flesh of the Son of man Jesus You could say I believe. . two savois working as one .One not seen the one with power to raise the dead and Jesus the Son of man as lord . Not Lord of lords the Holy Father

 

[Fred]

Not Lord of lords the Holy Father

According to Revelation 17:14 and Revelation 19:16 isn't Jesus the "Lord of lords"?

 

[Mr GLee]

According to Revelation 17:14 and Revelation 19:16 isn't Jesus the "Lord of lords"?

I would offer..


Revelation19: 15-19And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.. . . . . . . (Subject matter) .And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

[Fred]

I would offer..


Revelation19: 15-19And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.. . . . . . . (Subject matter) .And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

I'm sorry, but I am not sure what your point is.

 

[Runningman]

I'm trying to understand your "logic" and don't see it. Every time we see where Jesus created...it doesn't mean the Church.

Any reference to something being created by God with Jesus has the word "through" (referring to instrumentality) appended to it.

For example, Revelation 3:14 says that the creation is "God's creation" while the "Amen, the faithful and true witness" is the beginning of it. It means Jesus was created.

Rev 3
14And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write:
These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of God’s creation.

 

[Fred]

It means Jesus was created.

Wrong.

Rev 3
14And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write:
These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of God’s creation.

The above is in reference to the resurrection of Jesus.
He is "the firstborn of the dead."

Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this (NASB)
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood.

 

[CrowCross]

Any reference to something being created by God with Jesus has the word "through" (referring to instrumentality) appended to it.

I once told you it doesn't matter if it was by, through or what ever....Jesus was there....when the world was created. Jesus pre-existed His incarnation.