FATE OF THE UNREACHED

[Red Baker]

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.

Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned to the Lord.

Rom. 4:3-8
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh, is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man to whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

etc., etc.

Briefly let us consider these three scriptures you provided to support that our faith, even though a gift, is connected with our justification in a legal sense, a position you hold to.

1) Acts 13:48~David not sure why you would desire to you this verse, for it certainly does not give your understanding any support whatsoever.

Paul did not bring eternal life, but rather preached the gracious means of it. He brought salvation/life TO LIGHT and the WORD OF it (2nd Timothy 1:10; 2nd Cor 5:19). The preaching of Christ manifests either existing life or death (2nd Cor 2:14-17). Only those who were first ordained to eternal believed.

2) Acts 11:21~again only those who first were regeneration, or, a new man created within them believed. Those who believed and turn to the Lord did so by grace alone through the redemption that Christ secured for them. Acts 15:11; Romans 3:21-24; etc.

3) Romans 4:3-8~The sum of these verses is: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Once more:

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Gal 3:6; Jas 2:23).

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matt 3:9; John 8:33; Ex 3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith.

For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Rom 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Rom 4:13-16; Gal 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Gen 15:6).

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness? Consider:

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Gen 12:1-4; Heb 11:8; Gen 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Gen 14:18-20)?

Note: Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)!

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?

 

[JIM]

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?

What is "an act" of faith? What is "a life" of faith?

God justifies. The question should be, "Who does God justify?" The answer is really quite simple. God justifies whosoever believes in Him. That is the message over and over in the Bible, but most notably in the NT.

That is the message of Abraham. Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

It, i.e., believing in God, was counted to Abraham for righteousness. What does it mean that believing was counted to Abraham for righteousness? It means that on the basis of Abraham's believing in God, God justified Abraham. Because Abraham believed in God, God justified Abraham.

Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

 

[David1701]

Briefly let us consider these three scriptures you provided to support that our faith, even though a gift, is connected with our justification in a legal sense, a position you hold to.

1) Acts 13:48~David not sure why you would desire to you this verse, for it certainly does not give your understanding any support whatsoever.

Paul did not bring eternal life, but rather preached the gracious means of it. He brought salvation/life TO LIGHT and the WORD OF it (2nd Timothy 1:10; 2nd Cor 5:19). The preaching of Christ manifests either existing life or death (2nd Cor 2:14-17). Only those who were first ordained to eternal believed.

2) Acts 11:21~again only those who first were regeneration, or, a new man created within them believed. Those who believed and turn to the Lord did so by grace alone through the redemption that Christ secured for them. Acts 15:11; Romans 3:21-24; etc.

3) Romans 4:3-8~The sum of these verses is: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Once more:

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Gal 3:6; Jas 2:23).

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matt 3:9; John 8:33; Ex 3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith.

For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Rom 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Rom 4:13-16; Gal 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Gen 15:6).

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness? Consider:

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Gen 12:1-4; Heb 11:8; Gen 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Gen 14:18-20)?

Note: Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)!

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?

Right, I'm going to cut through all this rubbish.

When do you believe that salvation is applied to a person, and by what means?

 

[Red Baker]

Right, I'm going to cut through all this rubbish.

David, I do not consider discussion of the word of God rubbish, when both parties are being faithful to the word of God as they understand it.

When do you believe that salvation is applied to a person, and by what means?

This common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?​

Let’s ask Paul the question.​

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2ndTim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (IstTim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

Can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (2ndTim 3:1 – 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about “getting saved,” but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are “invitations” and “decisions” and “methods” for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation. We shall consider the five phases briefly.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry “Abba, Father.” With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.

Now, when someone asks me, “When were you saved?” I may ask him which phase he is asking about! You were saved before creation in God’s elective plan; you were saved at the cross in His legal provision; you were saved at an unknown time in your life by the Spirit’s regeneration; you were saved to knowledge and assurance of the truth by the gospel; and you will yet be saved at our Lord’s coming. Glory!

When do you believe that salvation is applied to a person, and by what means?

In the Eternal, legal, vital, and final phase God does not use any means other than his own will and power! In our practical phase of our salvation he uses the word of God and his children to convert others to the truth.

Regeneration and conversion are two separate doctrines.

 

[Red Baker]

What is "an act" of faith? What is "a life" of faith?

The act of faith by many folks understanding would be a time when a person can point to a place, a moment in time that they would tell others they were saved~saved to them is a salvation from hellfire.

What is "a life" of faith?

From conversion to death of the body.

It, i.e., believing in God, was counted to Abraham for righteousness.

Jim, that's impossible, and still be true that we are saved from sin and condemnation by the faith and obedience of one person~Jesus Christ. I will come back and spend time on Romans four, a misunderstood chapter of God's word. I have guests that have come in for my wife's birthday and I must spend time with them. My second oldest grandson and his wife.

 

[Mr GLee]

Briefly let us consider these three scriptures you provided to support that our faith, even though a gift, is connected with our justification in a legal sense, a position you hold to.

1) Acts 13:48~David not sure why you would desire to you this verse, for it certainly does not give your understanding any support whatsoever.

Paul did not bring eternal life, but rather preached the gracious means of it. He brought salvation/life TO LIGHT and the WORD OF it (2nd Timothy 1:10; 2nd Cor 5:19). The preaching of Christ manifests either existing life or death (2nd Cor 2:14-17). Only those who were first ordained to eternal believed.

2) Acts 11:21~again only those who first were regeneration, or, a new man created within them believed. Those who believed and turn to the Lord did so by grace alone through the redemption that Christ secured for them. Acts 15:11; Romans 3:21-24; etc.

3) Romans 4:3-8~The sum of these verses is: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Once more:

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Gal 3:6; Jas 2:23).

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matt 3:9; John 8:33; Ex 3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith.

For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Rom 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Rom 4:13-16; Gal 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Gen 15:6).

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness? Consider:

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Gen 12:1-4; Heb 11:8; Gen 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Gen 14:18-20)?

Note: Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)!

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?

Abraham a word used in parables to signify our invisible eternal Father Christ, as the God of all nations of the world . Previous name before born again .Abram. . father of one nation his own family. The family man

God is not a racist. That's of the democratic family

Some of the outward Jews (dying flesh) and not a inward Jew a "living born again Spirit of Christ" .

They tried to use the flesh of Abraham that had long returned to dust .As their eternal fleshly father the source of there false faith, belief.

One of the "do no even think that God is a dying man" doctrines as a oral tradition of dying mankind.

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Peter a previous member of the Pharisees with Sadducees who falsely sought after signs to wonder after before they would believe.

The foundation of paganism . .fools .Out of sight out of mind. They tried to make Jesus into a circus seal. . . do some magic work a miracle the when we see it with our own eye then will believe a micro second.

The parable of Christ Moses and Elijah used to represent hearing the word of God's understanding as it is written sola scriptura .

Peter still working out of his old spirit seeking after signs as if they were prophecy. Peter thought bricks and cement could contain a vision theophany .He desired to build a temple made with human hands .The abomination of desolation

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Two kinds of spirits . Satan the lying spirit would make it all one in the same. The temporal dying seen those kind of parable taught Peter as us how to walk or understand the unseen eternal things . I would think a lesson for all. Look to the things not seen thing of faith. "Let there be"

Parables teach us how to understand the unseen eternal things. Mysteries revealed .

I would think all would agree the bible can be difficult to understand spiritual things not seen .It was one big mystery a book of confusion.

Beginning with "let there be" the invisible power of the living word testimony of the power . The "temporal seen was good" .

I would call in one way Creation a parable Comparing the things not seen to the thing seen the temporal In that way I think they must be mixed as one answer .

Not trying to sell parables understanding .Many to include myself did shy away from parables seemed more like confusion in fear of becoming recognized a false prophet. . God is no longer bring new prohecy

Today Satan the King of lying signs to wonder the chief identity thief .Is working over time . Mankind fulfilling their desire to know God.

In that way I would sell Parables which without Christ spoke not and get his understanding

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the [U]truth[/U], and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Parables, not signs to wonder after as if true prohecy

 

[Mr GLee]

Let’s ask Paul the question.​

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2ndTim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (IstTim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

It would seem you are looking from the wrong standpoint .It can get confusing

It was a propmised three days nights demonstration of the lamb slain from the the foundations of the world .The six day Christ did work .One propmised demonstration

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his love for us by the fact that the Messiah died for us while we were still sinners

 

[Arial]

Can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

It is not phases or stages, it is different perspectives in those scriptures. Eternal in the Godhead (2 Tim 1:9); what Christ came into the world to do (1 Tim 1:15);
how it is done (Titus 3:5); the hope that is yet future of the consummation of our salvation (Romans 13:11).

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

This is not the legal phase. The legal declaration ----which is "justified"----applies to people, not Jesus. Jesus is not being justified, he is providing the work necessary for justification. Your reasons given for its necessity are correct. Your assertion that it is a legal phase is incorrect. You make that assertion of phases of salvation, (incorrectly in the false doctrines that you pull out of it) and have in other posts extended it to the conclusion that faith has nothing to do with our justification. Which is a blatant denial of Scripture. You have justification applied to the wrong person.

 

[Arial]

That is the message of Abraham. Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

It, i.e., believing in God, was counted to Abraham for righteousness. What does it mean that believing was counted to Abraham for righteousness? It means that on the basis of Abraham's believing in God, God justified Abraham. Because Abraham believed in God, God justified Abraham.

You have added the word "in" to a passage that does not contain that word and sent your theology off course of the actual theology taught in the Bible.

 

[JIM]

You have added the word "in" to a passage that does not contain that word and sent your theology off course of the actual theology taught in the Bible.

Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

In both of those verses faith is believing in God. Also, whenever the NT speaks of someone believing God, it is almost always the case that believing in God is the intended meaning. Seldom is it ever said in the NT that one believes God but does not believe in God. I hold that to be true for verse 3 as well.

And it is certainly the case for verse 24;....It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,

Faith in God is believing in God.

 

[Arial]

Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

In both of those verses faith is believing in God. Also, whenever the NT speaks of someone believing God, it is almost always the case that believing in God is the intended meaning. Seldom is it ever said in the NT that one believes God but does not believe in God. I hold that to be true for verse 3 as well.

And it is certainly the case for verse 24;....It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,

Faith in God is believing in God.

None of that changes the fact that you added the word "in" to "and Abraham believed God" when it is not there. By doing so you completely change the meaning. As you have so frequently, and again now, demonstrated.

When Paul uses the word "in" in Romans 4:24 "It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus or Lord" does not mean that it belongs in the verse where you added it. When we believe that God raised Jesus from the dead it is counted to us as righteousness. That is what the Bible declares through and through in the NT. You have removed Jesus from the equation of what we are to believe.

I realize from past experience that you do not distinguish between believing in God and believing God, when sometimes there is a distinction. So there is no point in starting up that conversation again. I was merely pointing out that you added to the word of God and developed a doctrine from the addition.

 

[David1701]

David, I do not consider discussion of the word of God rubbish, when both parties are being faithful to the word of God as they understand it.

This common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?​

Let’s ask Paul the question.​

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2ndTim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (IstTim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

Can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (2ndTim 3:1 – 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about “getting saved,” but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are “invitations” and “decisions” and “methods” for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation. We shall consider the five phases briefly.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry “Abba, Father.” With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.

Now, when someone asks me, “When were you saved?” I may ask him which phase he is asking about! You were saved before creation in God’s elective plan; you were saved at the cross in His legal provision; you were saved at an unknown time in your life by the Spirit’s regeneration; you were saved to knowledge and assurance of the truth by the gospel; and you will yet be saved at our Lord’s coming. Glory!


In the Eternal, legal, vital, and final phase God does not use any means other than his own will and power! In our practical phase of our salvation he uses the word of God and his children to convert others to the truth.

Regeneration and conversion are two separate doctrines.

Getting a straight answer would be easier with Kamala!

I was not asking about election in eternity past, nor about the resurrection; and I'm well aware of the Ordo Salutis.

Salvation from sin necessarily includes deliverance from its guilt and power in our lives. We cannot be said to have been saved, until this has happened; so, when does this happen, in your view: when we believe in Jesus, by God's grace, or beforehand?

Of course God uses means to save us; this is very clear in Scripture! The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, for everyone who believes.

Perhaps you would like to give us all a brief testimony of how God saved you (not asking about election or the resurrection, but what happened in your experience)?

 

[Rella]

None of that changes the fact that you added the word "in" to "and Abraham believed God" when it is not there. By doing so you completely change the meaning. As you have so frequently, and again now, demonstrated.

When Paul uses the word "in" in Romans 4:24 "It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus or Lord" does not mean that it belongs in the verse where you added it. When we believe that God raised Jesus from the dead it is counted to us as righteousness. That is what the Bible declares through and through in the NT. You have removed Jesus from the equation of what we are to believe.

I realize from past experience that you do not distinguish between believing in God and believing God, when sometimes there is a distinction. So there is no point in starting up that conversation again. I was merely pointing out that you added to the word of God and developed a doctrine from the addition.

Sorry. Dont mean to get into this but I do not see where the word in was added to Romans 4;3. Only in a clarifying explanation by the poster.

I just looked into the meaning of the verse.

What does Romans 4:3 mean? | BibleRef.com

For what does the Scripture say? 'ABRAHAM BELIEVED God, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.' - What is the meaning of Romans 4:3?

www.bibleref.com

What does Romans 4:3 mean?​

Paul is making a case that no human being has ever been justified—made right with God—by following the works of the law. This is primarily aimed at Jewish readers and those who have heard the arguments of the Jewish religious leaders.

Now he points to Abraham as a prime example, using Old Testament Scripture as his source. According to Scripture, Abraham was not justified by what he did: by his works. Instead, God credited Abraham as righteous when he believed and for believing (Genesis 15:6). It was faith in God, not his own works, which allowed Abraham to be justified before God.

Paul made this very same argument to the Christians in the region of Galatia (Galatians 3:6). They were being persuaded by a group known as the "Judaizers" that they must be circumcised and follow the law, in addition to believing in Christ, in order to be truly saved. Paul used the example of Abraham in that letter, as well, to show that this argument was false.

Hope this helps.

 

[Arial]

Sorry. Dont mean to get into this but I do not see where the word in was added to Romans 4;3. Only in a clarifying explanation by the poster.

I just looked into the meaning of the verse.

What does Romans 4:3 mean? | BibleRef.com

For what does the Scripture say? 'ABRAHAM BELIEVED God, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.' - What is the meaning of Romans 4:3?

www.bibleref.com

What does Romans 4:3 mean?​

Paul is making a case that no human being has ever been justified—made right with God—by following the works of the law. This is primarily aimed at Jewish readers and those who have heard the arguments of the Jewish religious leaders.

Now he points to Abraham as a prime example, using Old Testament Scripture as his source. According to Scripture, Abraham was not justified by what he did: by his works. Instead, God credited Abraham as righteous when he believed and for believing (Genesis 15:6). It was faith in God, not his own works, which allowed Abraham to be justified before God.

Paul made this very same argument to the Christians in the region of Galatia (Galatians 3:6). They were being persuaded by a group known as the "Judaizers" that they must be circumcised and follow the law, in addition to believing in Christ, in order to be truly saved. Paul used the example of Abraham in that letter, as well, to show that this argument was false.

Hope this helps.

I appreciate you putting it into the context of the original hearers. And I do not argue against the idea that it has much to do with what Paul is saying and why he is saying it.

My reason for pointing out that it does not say "Abraham believed in God," but rather it says "Abraham believed God" was made because of a previous, never resolved, dispute with @JIM, about the distinction made in places between believing in God and believing God. He finds no distinction ever, even though many people believe in God, that is, in his existence, without believing God when his word tells us the things that it does about Jesus. Believing in his existence all by itself, will not save. I have gathered from JIM's comments that he believes that Jesus lived, died, was resurrected and ascended, while it did pay for our sins, was mainly so we would believe in God----his existence and attributes. Now, I may be wrong, but that is what it looks like to me.

It is likely that Abraham already did believe in God's existence. The Bible tells us in Joshua that his family and so likely him also, who had been living in an entirely pagan, many god worshiping, world were worshiping many gods. It is also likely that they had heard of God by word of mouth, considering their ancestry, but they did not know him as Yahweh, the one true and living and covenantal God.

So when it says Abraham believed God it means more than he believed in him. It means he believed what God said, and acted on that belief. That does not change when Paul quotes the Gen 15 passage.

A very interesting and important thing follows this statement where God makes a covenant promise concerning what Abraham believed. That all the nations would be blessed through his heir, Isaac. In the ancient Near East there was a covenant ceremony that was called a blood oath. The treaty---usually between two kings----was ratified with the sacrifice of animals and the dismembered pieces laid in parallel lines and the two parties passed between them. In essence saying "May I become like these animals if I do not keep my word."

God instructs Abraham to prepare the sacrifice and lay it out with an isle between the parts; God himself in the form of the smoking pot, passes through the parts. It calls down a penalty on himself if he fails to keep that promise he made and that Abraham believed. And though that is a bit of a rabbit trail, I give it as a reminder how important it is to keep covenant in our mind when interpreting scriptures. All covenants instituted by God are by grace and it is grace when we believe him, and it is through believing him that we are justified before God. Not just believing in him. There are also many religions, in fact most of them, that believe in God and also believe in the existence of Jesus. But they do not believe Jesus or what God says about Jesus.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Do you honestly think "saved by grace through faith" can only mean that YOU generate that faith? The very passage you part-quote, specifically, pre-emptively continues, "...and that not of yourself...".

You have twisted my remark to mean that I think "we carry no responsibility in the arena of faith". I could go a lot farther than you have, to make your point, but I don't believe as you do, that we are able to produce a faith capable of accomplishing saving faith, nor persevering faith, nor faith in keeping with sanctification. I have not removed responsibility, but placed the credit precisely where it belongs —this is God's work. And HE is the one doing it. I have the privilege of the responsibility of obedience, of pursuit of God and the things of God, and even avoiding the quenching of the Spirit.

We carry more responsibility than we can even perform, and that is why OUR FAITH —ours because it is within us— is the work of the Spirit of God in us. If you think faith is not given to us, tell me how YOUR DECISION is worthy of anything. Is it full of wisdom, knowledge and understanding? Is your commitment and faithfulness steadfast? Do you love the Lord your God with all your being? The Spirit has all that. You don't.

Perhaps, if you are willing to continue this, you can explain how the fact that we have a will "means simply that man can generate his own faith". Show me that logical sequence, instead of simply asserting that it is so. And no, I don't say we don't have a will. In fact, I insist that we have a will, that we have real, effectual choice, and that we are responsible for what we think, say and do, as we will see when every secret will be brought to light.

If there is something truly good that any of us do, it is because of the grace of God, the work of God, and his overabundant mercy and kindness working in us. Even for the unbeliever, when God removes all his goodness from them, all that is left is a husk, a wraith, and not who you thought you knew on this earth.

Faith & Ephesians 2:8
This salvation is in no sense of yourselves, Jesus seems to be saying in Ephesians 2:8, but it is the result of your faith in Him; and it, salvation, is the free gift of God. In other words, by grace you are saved through faith in Christ. Nothing in this verse indicates that God conferred saving faith upon us. Every competent person has the will to either believe in God and His son—or reject them.

That’s why Jesus said, “If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether my teaching is from God...” Our salvation is not of ourselves, but God saved us when we placed our trust, our faith, and our confidence in Him. Neither trust, faith. or confidence was conferred upon us to react in such a fashion.

An interesting passage is, “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ” (Rom. 10:17). Faith is generated when an unbeliever has access to some form of revelation, whether the revelation of creation (Rom. 1) or audible or written testimony, and accepts what he is exposed to. The pagans in Romans 1 knew God through the revelation of creation but refused to accept Him.

“For what can be know about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them, For His invisible attributes, namely His eternal power and divine nature, have been, have been clearly perceived, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him” (Rom. 1:18-23).

You wrote, “We carry more responsibility than we can even perform, and that is why OUR FAITH —ours because it is within us—is the work of the Spirit of God in us. If you think faith is not given to us, tell me how YOUR DECISION is worthy of anything. Is it full of wisdom, knowledge and understanding? Is your commitment and faithfulness steadfast? Do you love the Lord your God with all your being? The Spirit has all that.”

Now tell me, Why wasn’t “the work of the Spirit of God in” them—the pagans in Romans 1? They knew God but refused to manifest their faith in Him! Was “the work of the Spirit of God” failing to do His duty? How can you, do you, apply your doctrinal application to those pagans in Romans 1? Of their own selves they could have generated—developed, engendered—faith in God.

It is not a question of the unbeliever not having the element of faith throughout his life, as pertaining to many aspects of his life. That happens to be part of his creation. But you seem to be saying that he cannot have faith in the God of creation, or in His Son, unless it “is the work of the Spirit of God” within him. As an example, if he has the self-made ability to have little or no faith in some political leader, he also has the self-made ability to have faith in him. The principle works both ways.

The unbeliever, of his own self-made ability, can either reject faith in Christ or generate faith in Christ. If you are saying he cannot develop faith in Christ of his own accord without “the work of the Spirit of God” in him, he is no more than a robot, for he is being programmed by the Holy Spirit to react the way he reacts/functions. The unbelieving world cannot receive the Spirit of truth (John 14:17. But you have him receiving “the work of the Spirit of God.”

This is enough for now. I may have more to say later, as time permits. Thanks for reading me.​

 

[Josheb]

Faith & Ephesians 2:8
This salvation is in no sense of yourselves, Jesus seems to be saying in Ephesians 2:8, but it is the result of your faith in Him; and it, salvation, is the free gift of God. In other words, by grace you are saved through faith in Christ. Nothing in this verse indicates that God conferred saving faith upon us. Every competent person has the will to either believe in God and His son—or reject them.​

Incorrect.

Nowhere does scripture state any person is saved by faith, especially not causally. What scripture does explicitly states is salvation is a gift and not of ourselves. That part in between the word "grace" and the phrase "not of ourselves," is the predicate clause to which the "not of ourselves applies. It's not one or the other (grace or faith); it is both. Therefore, the statement, "Nothing in the verse indicates that God conferred saving faith upon us," is factually incorrect. It's just plain wrong. It is the salvation that is by grace through faith that is the gift. What scripture does state is causally by faith, is justification. Justification is not synonymous with salvation. Lastly (for now) sin makes a person incompetent. Assuming competence is a mistake, and the assertion begs the question. It is from incompetency that we are being saved.


Perhaps most importantly..... what has any of that have to do with proving the veracity of house churches??? How does it prove church structures are idolatrous?


Think what a home church congregation with Buff and I in it would look like.

 

[Arial]

Faith & Ephesians 2:8
This salvation is in no sense of yourselves, Jesus seems to be saying in Ephesians 2:8, but it is the result of your faith in Him; and it, salvation, is the free gift of God. In other words, by grace you are saved through faith in Christ. Nothing in this verse indicates that God conferred saving faith upon us. Every competent person has the will to either believe in God and His son—or reject them.

Except that the natural man---and that is all humans, dead, as the Bible declares, in trespasses-----cannot understand spiritual things without the Spirit. They must first be brought to life by the Spirit. Otherwise it is foolishness to them. When was the last time you heard someone say, "That is utter foolishness but I will choose to believe it anyway." (1 Cor 2:14; John 3)

Jesus tells us that no one can come to him unless it is granted to him by the Father. (John 6:65)

Every good thing we have is from God, and it is all by grace. We as humans are treacherous traitors who made a blight of creation by not doing what God put us in charge as mediators of creation to do. We made a blight of our relationships, we dishonor God with every breath and movement. He owes us nothing. He never did owe us anything not even in the Garden of Eden. That too was grace. So of course salvation is a gift but so is faith. If he doesn't give that good thing we need to be saved from his wrath, we do not have it.

 

[fastfredy0]

And even now, and until the day we die, (and, I believe, ever after, too) our faith is STILL not generated by us, but by the Spirit of God within us.

Does not faith diminish as it becomes reality?
Faith is things hoped for .... does one still hope for something that has occurred?

 

[makesends]

Faith & Ephesians 2:8
This salvation is in no sense of yourselves, Jesus seems to be saying in Ephesians 2:8, but it is the result of your faith in Him; and it, salvation, is the free gift of God. In other words, by grace you are saved through faith in Christ.​

Agreed to this point. In the Greek, 'salvation' is what it referred to by 'that' not of yourselves.

Nothing in this verse indicates that God conferred saving faith upon us. Every competent person has the will to either believe in God and His son—or reject them.​

Disagreed here. The fact that 'salvation' is by grace through faith, and that salvation is 'not of yourselves', but IS by grace through faith, logically and grammatically implies that the faith and grace are also 'not of yourselves'.

That’s why Jesus said, “If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether my teaching is from God...” Our salvation is not of ourselves, but God saved us when we placed our trust, our faith, and our confidence in Him. Neither trust, faith. or confidence was conferred upon us to react in such a fashion.​

Wrong. There is no implication that it is our faith —this is, generated by the human— that accomplishes this supernatural power.

An interesting passage is, “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ” (Rom. 10:17). Faith is generated when an unbeliever has access to some form of revelation, whether the revelation of creation (Rom. 1) or audible or written testimony, and accepts what he is exposed to. The pagans in Romans 1 knew God through the revelation of creation but refused to accept Him.

“For what can be know about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them, For His invisible attributes, namely His eternal power and divine nature, have been, have been clearly perceived, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him” (Rom. 1:18-23).

You wrote, “We carry more responsibility than we can even perform, and that is why OUR FAITH —ours because it is within us—is the work of the Spirit of God in us. If you think faith is not given to us, tell me how YOUR DECISION is worthy of anything. Is it full of wisdom, knowledge and understanding? Is your commitment and faithfulness steadfast? Do you love the Lord your God with all your being? The Spirit has all that.”

Now tell me, Why wasn’t “the work of the Spirit of God in” them—the pagans in Romans 1? They knew God but refused to manifest their faith in Him! Was “the work of the Spirit of God” failing to do His duty? How can you, do you, apply your doctrinal application to those pagans in Romans 1? Of their own selves they could have generated—developed, engendered—faith in God.​

Where do you get the notion, from my statements, that it is the Spirit's duty to generate salvific faith within those to whom he did not choose to show mercy? God is not obligated to do anything. You seem to me to assume some sort of equality of chance between all people. Implicit in that notion, is the assumption that God had nothing specific in mind when he created, and worse, that some kind of virtue in some places them above others in the ability to have faith, or give their hearts to God.

It is not a question of the unbeliever not having the element of faith throughout his life, as pertaining to many aspects of his life. That happens to be part of his creation. But you seem to be saying that he cannot have faith in the God of creation, or in His Son, unless it “is the work of the Spirit of God” within him. As an example, if he has the self-made ability to have little or no faith in some political leader, he also has the self-made ability to have faith in him. The principle works both ways.​

You would equate the faith of anyone in a political leader with the faith in God? It is nothing of the kind.

The unbeliever, of his own self-made ability, can either reject faith in Christ or generate faith in Christ. If you are saying he cannot develop faith in Christ of his own accord without “the work of the Spirit of God” in him, he is no more than a robot, for he is being programmed by the Holy Spirit to react the way he reacts/functions. The unbelieving world cannot receive the Spirit of truth (John 14:17. But you have him receiving “the work of the Spirit of God.”

This is enough for now. I may have more to say later, as time permits. Thanks for reading me.​

Agreed he can reject faith, and we all do as we disobey, some of us sometimes even purposely, but the 'moving in' (to put it crassly) of the Spirit of God, to indwell those to whom God chose to show mercy, is not dependent on the person's volition, but is as new a birth as their first, to which they also did not give affirmation, nor were they consulted. And, before you light into your diatribe, I too agree that we DO choose Christ, but that it is a result, and not a cause, of our regeneration, and, indeed, of our very salvation, just as Ephesians 2:8,9 declares.

 

[makesends]

Does not faith diminish as it becomes reality?
Faith is things hoped for .... does one still hope for something that has occurred?

Funny thing about that. Consistent with the notion that that kind of faith is generated by God himself, is the realization that what we have seen by experience with God's work in us, does not diminish our faith but affirms the truth unseen. You would hardly say that Jesus faith was diminished, yet he was ever closer and surer of all facts, it seems to me, as his time on earth drew to a close, though even early on he knew who he was.

Our faith is not diminished, as reality is more clearly recognized, because it was not from us. (Not to mention that as we see what we hoped for, God takes us on to ever-increasing goals/challenges.) We will not lack for faith when we are in Heaven, even though we will know as we are known, because faith is the confidence in what we do not now see (to reword it for the point). When we do see, the faith is satisfied, but we will be IN HIM, completely, which is altogether by the Spirit of God, uninhibited by time. The nature of salvific faith does not change. It is not a tool for a purpose, to be done away with or to become obsolete, but rather it is the work of God himself, and not through means.