FATE OF THE UNREACHED

[Mr GLee]

David, then will you confess that millions will inherit eternal life who has never heard of Jesús Christ, have never heard the gospel preach as we have? Will you confess that a person can be born again, and not so much as heard if there be such a thing as an atonement made for sinners by Jesus Christ, not so much as have heard if there be an Holy Ghost; etc.

Christ is Eternal life who gives the understanding of the living word . A work of Christ's labor of love called a work of his (let there be and it was good) faith

Not a faith of our own coming from our own mind . . dead ."Let there be" and nothing changes nothing .

Powerful faith that can raise the dead. a faith without doubt

Faith power from Him not . Not human faith dead towards Him

Hebrews 6:1King James Version Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 

[Arial]

Jesus' faith was not just unwavering, his faith was perfect form conception to his death ~ you and I can have unwavering faith, yet fall way short of perfection. I would think you would agree with this after consideration of what I just said.

I think you are disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, is what I think. Perfect faith does not waver. I am not talking about your faith or my faith or the faith of any redeemed person when I speak of Jesus' faith.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by these words...."is part and parcel"??

The righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel~that is, the righteousness that God provided for his elect for them to inherit eternal life, which was secured for them by Jesus Christ's faith and obedience alone~our new man created within us at the new birth, causes us to put our faith, (even though so imperfect) in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by his perfect righteousness that he rendered unto the law of God for us. Jesus' faith and obedience is the total and complete means of our free justification by God's grace freely given to us through his Son.

Really? Is it that you don't know what "part and parcel" means? Perfect faith is a necessary component of perfect righteousness. So why, and from where, do you get the idea that I have said that it is our very own perfect faith, and not that of Jesus' imputed to us? That I have said Jesus' faith and obedience is not the total and complete means of our free justification? The faith we have is the faith that God gives us, and the faith that God gives us is faith in the person and work of Jesus. You seem to be trying to circumvent that and it cannot be circumvented. It is through this trust in Jesus that we are justified before God.

When it is said that faith is given unto us, the overall teaching of the scriptures means that by the very fact when God regenerates his children, the power to beleive IS THERE in their new man~God just does not give faith and then regenerate his children, he first create a new man within them that has the power to believe even though it is weak and imperfect, and must grow over time to please him, yet the power to do so IS THERE.

Why do you present that as an argument against what I have said, when I have never said that God first gives faith and then regenerates. You write as though you thought you were debating with a free willie.

Faith that provides the new birth for us had to be perfect which Jesus' faith was~this is the teaching of Ephesians two that I spoke upon above. Faith that saves us from sin and condemnation is not of ourselves in any way whatsoever.

It is not of ourselves. Faith is given to us by God. And when he gives it, it becomes ours. And that faith that he gives is faith in Jesus---who he is and what he did. This faith does not provide the new birth. It is now you who are, by your wording at least, saying that faith comes before the new birth. Faith to believe is a result of the new birth. Without that regeneration, there would be no faith, because the natural man cannot understand or believe spiritual things. We are quickened to life by the Holy Spirit and then we do believe. So----in what way would this relate to the fate of the unreached and the things stated in the OP? It does do so. And now that an act of God is the first and only cause of salvation, nothing of man himself, is established, what have you to say about the unreached?

Reading others posts carefully is something I do, to make sure I never misrepresent others teachings.

If that is the case, why are you presenting what I said as the opposite of what I did say?

Faith is given to us by the very fact that God first quicken us to life by creating a new man within us according to his power, grace, promises and oath. But, our faith has no part in us being regenerated by God's Spirit, none whatsoever.

Such as this. I never said, inferred, or implied any such thing as faith coming before regeneration.

 

[Arial]

There is only one way of knowing that that person has eternal life~it comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But, that being said, our faith which is so imperfect is not the means of receiving the forgiveness of sin, that comes by the faith and obedience of one person, Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16; Romans 5:19; etc.

Hearing and hearing by the word of God is how one knows what to believe. Romans 10:14-21 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" Bt they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" So faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

"By grace you are saved, through faith and that is a gift, not of yourselves that any should boast---" When it says "not of yourselves" it does not mean that it is Christ's faith that saves us. It means that the faith that God gives us is in Christ. It clearly makes a distinction between faith that is given and works. It would be works if the necessary faith were generated by us. The very Greek word used for faith carries the meaning of divine origin rather than internal origin. It is because of the perfect obedience of Christ, which includes his faithfulness, and that alone, that we are saved. And it is his perfect obedience that is imputed to us. But this requires faith. It is by faith that we are justified before God. And this faith we do not have and cannot have within us until we are born again from above. So if we have been born again. when we hear the gospel we believe it. And if we believe it we also trust in Him. We have faith. It has been given to us and is now ours.

 

[Arial]

Jesus' faith was not just unwavering, his faith was perfect form conception to his death ~

What do you think unwavering means? Your are tilting at windmills.

you and I can have unwavering faith, yet fall way short of perfection.

Then it is not unwavering faith but wavering faith.

 

[Arial]

Salvation from sin and condemnation is through the obedience of one person~Jesus Christ, God's Son secured eternal life for God's elect by himself~we believe in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by his life alone, not by any work that we have done, or will do.

You are tilting at windmills.

 

[Arial]

David, yes some confess that regeneration precedes faith, yet in their teaching of the scriptures, they end up confusing the two, they just do not seem to know the true role of faith in the life of God's elect~even some men that I would consider mighty in the scriptures have trouble at times.

Are you dealing here with whoever these some people are, and treating those who are posting as though they are those some people? And have you ever considered that your view may be the one that it confusing two things and has a wrong perception of the true role of faith?

The faith that saves is the faith God gives us as a result of regeneration, and that faith is in someone. Who is the someone?

Wrong! The only conduit by which we are forgiven and declared righteous, is by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ, period.

That is not the conduit. That is who and what makes it possible for us to be forgiven and declared righteous. It is applied to a person through faith. And this is God's doing. That does not make faith a work on our part because it is a work we are not capable of doing. The faith IN the person and work of Jesus that saves is also a gift given to us by God. Every bit of it is grace. And without a regeneration done by the Holy Spirit (John 3) it is impossible to believe what we must believe. Quickened to life. Hear. Believe.

 

[Red Baker]

I think you are disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, is what I think.

I would never do that, that would be sinful on my part. Arial, please consider a article from a man of God from almost three hundred years ago, to see that he dealt with the same doctrine as we are now discussing. This gentleman was only a deacon in the church pastored by John Gill.

Eternal Justification - John Brine

I am not talking about your faith or my faith or the faith of any redeemed person when I speak of Jesus' faith.

Just as long as we separate Jesus' faith and obedience as the only legal means of our justification from sin and condemnation fork our faith in the gospel.

Really? Is it that you don't know what "part and parcel" means?

I never said I did not know what this means ~ just not sure how you are using this in respect to our legal justification by Christ alone.

Perfect faith is a necessary component of perfect righteousness. So why, and from where, do you get the idea that I have said that it is our very own perfect faith, and not that of Jesus' imputed to us? That I have said Jesus' faith and obedience is not the total and complete means of our free justification?

Yes. As far as our legal justification, Jesus' faith and obedience is the total and complete means thereof before the law of God.

The faith we have is the faith that God gives us, and the faith that God gives us is faith in the person and work of Jesus.

Sister, God does not gives us faith at regeneration~he gives us "the power to have faith," which faith is a work on our part, and it comes over a long period in our walk with God, starts out weak and almost non-existence...... the gift of life is freely given apart from any work on our part. Our Faith is not in anyway connected with our legal justification, zero.

It is through this trust in Jesus that we are justified before God.

Sister, in what sense are we justified by faith? Not legally, nor vitally, but practically we are. This is where we war with other believers, they have trouble with faith's role in our justification.

Why do you present that as an argument against what I have said, when I have never said that God first gives faith and then regenerates.

Sister, then please explain the quote above to clear the air.

You write as though you thought you were debating with a free willie.

No~ just some of God's children are confused on the role of faith in our justification before the law of God.

Such as this. I never said, inferred, or implied any such thing as faith coming before regeneration.

It is through this trust in Jesus that we are justified before God.

You are welcome to explain yourself.

 

[Arial]

I would never do that, that would be sinful on my part. Arial, please consider a article from a man of God from almost three hundred years ago, to see that he dealt with the same doctrine as we are now discussing. This gentleman was only a deacon in the church pastored by John Gill.

What exactly makes you think that I do not understand the doctrine of justification? Be brief, be clear. I did not read the entire link you posted. It is possible that you do not understand what they are saying. Any more than it appears you do not understand what I am saying.

The only way anyone can be saved is by and because of the work of Christ. That includes his perfect obedience, his substitutionary death on the cross, his resurrection and his ascension. But-- that work is only applied to a person through faith in that person and that work. That is the way God established it. Faith counted as righteousness just as it was with Abraham. All of it is by grace and is monergistic.

Romans 2:15-16 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one is justified.

Just as long as we separate Jesus' faith and obedience as the only legal means of our justification from sin and condemnation fork our faith in the gospel.

Our faith isn't in the gospel. Where did you get that idea? Our faith is in Jesus and Jesus alone. By grace alone, Christ alone, faith alone for the glory of God alone. It is faith in Christ that brings us into union with him, and justifies us, therefore, legally with God. And this is a reconciliation.

I never said I did not know what this means ~ just not sure how you are using this in respect to our legal justification by Christ alone.

I'm not. And it is not what I said. I said Jesus' perfect faith in the Father is included in perfect righteousness. I said nothing about legal justification.

Yes. As far as our legal justification, Jesus' faith and obedience is the total and complete means thereof before the law of God.

You are conflating means and manner. The means of justification is the work of Christ. The manner in which persons are justified is through faith.

Sister, God does not gives us faith at regeneration~he gives us "the power to have faith," which faith is a work on our part, and it comes over a long period in our walk with God, starts out weak and almost non-existence...... the gift of life is freely given apart from any work on our part. Our Faith is not in anyway connected with our legal justification, zero.

Did I say anything about regeneration in my comment? We cannot talk about two distinct things at the same time as though they are the same thing. So stop putting words in my mouth and that won't happen.

We do not have power to have faith and we are not given power to have faith. You will need to show Scripture for that. The faith we have in Christ is is given to us by grace. It is not a work on our part. You have just turned grace into works and presented salvation by works. Faith grows over the rest of our life, but there is an initial faith, no matter how great or small, that saves completely and for always. The subject right here and in this moment is faith. Not regeneration. It goes without saying to any who believe salvation is monergistic, that a person must be regenerated from the old man to the new man before the necessary faith can exist. God changes the heart and plants the seed, the seed grows.

Since God tells us that it is by grace we are saved through faith, and since he tells us in the above quoted passage from Gal, that apart from faith no one is justified---you would be dead wrong when you say faith is not in anyway connected with our legal justification. When you stop seeing faith in two wrong ways: 1. as a work on our part and 2. As not ours when God gives it to us, you will see clearly what the rightly divided word teaches. Maybe this will help.
Eph 2:8

4102 [e] pisteōs πίστεως , faith N-GFS ​

From Strong's Concordance

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.​

 

[Arial]

Sister, in what sense are we justified by faith? Not legally, nor vitally, but practically we are. This is where we war with other believers, they have trouble with faith's role in our justification.

It is you who are having difficulty with faith's role in justification. The Bible shows us in number of places, and I have shown you two of them, that say very specifically that we are justified by faith. If you say otherwise you flat out deny the word of God. There is no such thing as practical justification. It is purely a legal term and declares our status before God. Bang goes the hammer, "Not guilty!" the verdict.

And why are we not guilty? Because Jesus purchased us for the Father with his blood. He gave himself as a ransom --- his own body in our place---to satisfy God's justice against sin and the sinner. That judgment against the guilty is death with no hope of redemption, of dwelling with God in the restored creation. Jesus took upon his own body on the cross the wrath of God against our sin and he died in our place. The difference between him and us---according to the flesh, not according to his deity ---is that he was not born in Adam and he had no sin, no spot or blemish. Therefore death could not hold him and he rose from the grave. He ascended back to the Father and reigns as King and Priest. In this he defeated the power of sin to condemn the believer to death and the wrath of God.

The sins of the believer have met God's justice in Christ. But the believer still has to believe and it is guaranteed by God that they will believe and he sees to it that they do believe. Therefore, when they do believe, they are pronounced justified. They are in Christ.

 

[Arial]

Sister, then please explain the quote above to clear the air.

This was the conversation that led to me asking that question.

When it is said that faith is given unto us, the overall teaching of the scriptures means that by the very fact when God regenerates his children, the power to beleive IS THERE in their new man~God just does not give faith and then regenerate his children, he first create a new man within them that has the power to believe even though it is weak and imperfect, and must grow over time to please him, yet the power to do so IS THERE.

Why do you present that as an argument against what I have said, when I have never said that God first gives faith and then regenerates. You write as though you thought you were debating with a free willie.

I don't know what quote you refer to as "above" that you ask me to explain. This quote by me is the one "above." And I asked because you suggest that I am saying faith comes before regeneration ----which I never did. As I said in a previous post, you are trying to talk about two things that are distinct at the same time as though they are the same thing. Either talk about regeneration or talk about justification through faith or whatever you think justification is through.

No~ just some of God's children are confused on the role of faith in our justification before the law of God.

My mistake. I thought you were discussing this issue with me not "some of God's children" who you consider confused. Who aren't here btw. And cannot state or defend their position. They are phantoms as far as the forum is concerned. WIndmills and straw men.

You are welcome to explain yourself.

How many more times do you think I will have to do so?

 

[David1701]

David, the words save/saved/salvation is not used in the same sense in the scriptures ~ therefore, we must study to rightly divide the word of truth, if we fail to do so, we shall be shame before others, and unable to answer many positions of false cults. The word saved in Acts 16;31 is used in a practical sense, not in a vital sense, and certainly not in a legal sense. No man is ever ask to believe in the scriptures in order to be saved in a vital sense, there's not one verse to support such a position. The Philippian jailor gave clear proof that he had been quicken to life at some point before he ever came trembling and falling down before Paul and Silas. Paul did not go into any theological discussion with him concerning the doctrine of salvation, but told him to believe in Jesus Christ and he shall be saved~faith is the evidence of eternal life, not the means thereof, neither the channel through which we are born again. Faith in Christ saves us from many things, including the fear of death, a welcome visitor ~ saves us from not having any hope to having a strong consolation in the world to come, and eternal life.

The above is almost entirely nonsense!

Faith is only evidence of eternal life in the sense that those who have believed in Jesus are given eternal life. Initial faith in Jesus is certainly not evidence of prior eternal life!

John 3:14-16 (Webster)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The order could not clearer: firstly we believe, then we are given eternal life.

It sounds like you are conflating being born again (being given a new, soft human heart/spirit (Ez. 36:26,27)) with the eternal life that one is given following the faith that proceeds from this new human heart/spirit.

Re. Acts 16:31 - the jailor did not go down on his knees to ask what to do to receive some practical "salvation"! "Good sirs, what must I do to get help with my debts, feed the cat and get good weather for my plants?" I don't think so...

Honestly, I don't think I've ever read such a heap of drivel about this subject.

 

[David1701]

David, the words save/saved/salvation is not used in the same sense in the scriptures ~ therefore, we must study to rightly divide the word of truth, if we fail to do so, we shall be shame before others, and unable to answer many positions of false cults. The word saved in Acts 16;31 is used in a practical sense, not in a vital sense, and certainly not in a legal sense. No man is ever ask to believe in the scriptures in order to be saved in a vital sense, there's not one verse to support such a position. The Philippian jailor gave clear proof that he had been quicken to life at some point before he ever came trembling and falling down before Paul and Silas. Paul did not go into any theological discussion with him concerning the doctrine of salvation, but told him to believe in Jesus Christ and he shall be saved~faith is the evidence of eternal life, not the means thereof, neither the channel through which we are born again. Faith in Christ saves us from many things, including the fear of death, a welcome visitor ~ saves us from not having any hope to having a strong consolation in the world to come, and eternal life.


Faith is not the means through which God gives us salvation form sin and condemantion~that is where we strongly disagree with the average Calvinist.

Faith is the evidence that we have been born of God and been given the gift of eteranl life whereby we shall not perish in the lake of fire which is the second death. Our faith in Christ has not one thing to do with being the channel/means of eternal life~only the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ is the means by which a person will inherit eternal life.

Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistable Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth.

They apply irresistible grace, or what they name the “effectual call,” to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect. They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things. This is sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it. They must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc. Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few. The typical Calvinist, even great men like John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion. God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer. The first of the acts is God’s work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect.

David~"begged the question"? David, I have not raise any thing that is not clearly taught throughout the scriptures~and certainly not assuming something that I cannot prove with using God's testimony to support it.

Galatians 2:16​

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

This is the gospel in a nutshell, not John 3:16 as many believe.

What is “the faith of Jesus Christ”? For it is the means of our legal justification before God.

Because we trust our King James Bible, we do not alter it to read “faith in Jesus Christ,” which modern translations do to reduce the Bible to their concept of faith and its role.

Yet, the simple genitive case does not prove whether it is Christ’s faith or ours in Christ.

Consider well the example of similar language to Gal 2:16 in James 2:1. Whose faith?

Context determines if the simple genitive is subjective or objective, which is answered by determining if the object of the preposition is the subject or object of the possession.

See cases of subjective-genitive (Hag 2:7; Dan 11:37; Ist John 3:16; Jas 2:4; 2nd Cor 5:14).

See cases of objective-genitive (Luke 11:42; I Timothy 3:6; 6:10; Acts 13:34; Jude 1:21).

We understand “the faith of Jesus Christ” to be His singular obedience to God for us, for the rest of the New Testament teaches justification by His work for us (Rom 5:17-19).

I'll keep this very brief, because I'm not going to engage in fruitless conversation with someone who does not understand the basics.

Salvation was accomplished, by the Lord Jesus Christ, on the cross, by his shed blood, broken body and death.

Salvation is applied to us through the grace-gift of faith in Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2:8-10 (Webster)
8 For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not by works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.

Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned to the Lord.

Rom. 4:3-8
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh, is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man to whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

etc., etc.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

A Few Questions & My Answers On The
"Fate Of The Unreached"​

Question
Do you believe many of the unregenerate are part of God’s “elect”?

Answer
I believe all who reach heaven, whether those born anew or the devout unregenerate, are part of God’s elect.

Question
You seem to be saying the “honest uninformed” will be saved by responding to some divine revelation. Isn’t this legalism? Paul says people are saved by grace through faith. Explain.

Answer
No responsible person will be saved except on the basis of grace through faith, regardless of the divine revelation under which he lived and died. His positive response to the revelation under which he lived was a reflection of his faith. If I understand the divine testimony accurately, God’s grace cannot be applied to an accountable person without faith.

It seems there are two principal schools of thought relating to this subject. I suggest you select the one that best coincides with your doctrinal position. Here they are:

1) Only those who consciously accept the redemptive acts of Jesus will be saved.
2) Only those who consciously reject the God of creation are lost.

Conclusion
Needless to say, I accept the latter premise (above). The principle I’ve introduced in this essay should be pondered deliberately, namely:

Some lack capabilities; others lack opportunities. If God extends grace and mercy to those persons lacking capabilities, will He not grant grace and mercy to those honest persons lacking opportunities?

Does God use one measuring rod for those persons lacking capabilities and a different measuring rod for those persons lacking opportunities? If we limit heaven’s population only to those who had the opportunity to hear and respond to divine revelations in the form of audible or written messages, the corridors and airways and arcades of heaven will be mighty spacious! I suspect that when we reach heaven we will find many people there whom we felt would not be there, and quite a few not there whom we felt would be there.

It is good that God is the Judge, for we are too prone to misjudge. He understands the predicament of the unexposed. He is not a phantom. He is real! And He will save those who seek Him! The bottom line, however, is that God is still at the controls, and He will accept or reject whomever He wishes. Praise His Name!​

 

[makesends]

We have faith. It has been given to us and is now ours

And even now, and until the day we die, (and, I believe, ever after, too) our faith is STILL not generated by us, but by the Spirit of God within us.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

And even now, and until the day we die, (and, I believe, ever after, too) our faith is STILL not generated by us, but by the Spirit of God within us.

My brother, you need a big bushel of help, for you are very truly confusing matters on this topic. I suggest you not forget what Paul said. He said we are "saved by grace through faith."

But you have twisted his remark to mean that we carry no responsibility in the arena of faith, no faith of our own. Remove human responsibility totally, as you are doing, and you have a robot.

Furthermore, Jesus made it plain when He told the Jews, "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether my teaching is from God..." (John 7:17). Interestingly, Jesus is saying that man has a will! This means simply that man can generate his own faith, but God's grace grants his salvation.​

 

[makesends]

My brother, you need a big bushel of help, for you are very truly confusing matters on this topic. I suggest you not forget what Paul said. He said we are "saved by grace through faith."

But you have twisted his remark to mean that we carry no responsibility in the arena of faith, no faith of our own. Remove human responsibility totally, as you are doing, and you have a robot.

Furthermore, Jesus made it plain when He told the Jews, "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether my teaching is from God..." (John 7:17). Interestingly, Jesus is saying that man has a will! This means simply that man can generate his own faith, but God's grace grants his salvation.​

Do you honestly think "saved by grace through faith" can only mean that YOU generate that faith? The very passage you part-quote, specifically, pre-emptively continues, "...and that not of yourself...".

You have twisted my remark to mean that I think "we carry no responsibility in the arena of faith". I could go a lot farther than you have, to make your point, but I don't believe as you do, that we are able to produce a faith capable of accomplishing saving faith, nor persevering faith, nor faith in keeping with sanctification. I have not removed responsibility, but placed the credit precisely where it belongs —this is God's work. And HE is the one doing it. I have the privilege of the responsibility of obedience, of pursuit of God and the things of God, and even avoiding the quenching of the Spirit.

We carry more responsibility than we can even perform, and that is why OUR FAITH —ours because it is within us— is the work of the Spirit of God in us. If you think faith is not given to us, tell me how YOUR DECISION is worthy of anything. Is it full of wisdom, knowledge and understanding? Is your commitment and faithfulness steadfast? Do you love the Lord your God with all your being? The Spirit has all that. You don't.

Perhaps, if you are willing to continue this, you can explain how the fact that we have a will "means simply that man can generate his own faith". Show me that logical sequence, instead of simply asserting that it is so. And no, I don't say we don't have a will. In fact, I insist that we have a will, that we have real, effectual choice, and that we are responsible for what we think, say and do, as we will see when every secret will be brought to light.

If there is something truly good that any of us do, it is because of the grace of God, the work of God, and his overabundant mercy and kindness working in us. Even for the unbeliever, when God removes all his goodness from them, all that is left is a husk, a wraith, and not who you thought you knew on this earth.

 

[Red Baker]

Do you honestly think "saved by grace through faith" can only mean that YOU generate that faith? The very passage you part-quote, specifically, pre-emptively continues, "...and that not of yourself...".

I would say amen to this, but would add: Not by the very fact we do not generate this faith, or even excise faith being a gift, but Paul's whole point in Ephesians 2:4-8, is that the faith that saves us legally is the faith that Christ personally had while living in this world for around thirty three plus years. Faith that saves legally before the law of God is the faith of Jesus Christ, who acted/lived not as as private person, but as the surety of God's elect. Again, consider what I said above:

In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. The power of this faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

Example of a metonymy: if you are at a friend's house and they offer you some wine, and you say: 'I'd love to have a glass', you are using a metonymy, since the 'glass' is just the container of what you would love to have.

 

[JIM]

We are told about eternal life and we are told about eternal condemnation. Are those the only two possible outcomes for all humanity?

 

[Red Baker]

A Few Questions & My Answers On The
"Fate Of The Unreached"​

Question
Do you believe many of the unregenerate are part of God’s “elect”?​

The Unbeliever Has No Knowledge of Any Justification

Also we confess that he that believes not has no knowledge of any justification. All who are without faith are visibly in a perishing state. There is not the least appearance to the contrary. No man may apply salvation to such as believe not. Nor may they apply any to themselves. Such as believe not have no enjoyment of God, no true peace, no evidence of life, no right to Baptism, or the Supper. They cannot see the mystery of the Truth. He cannot honor God nor love the truth, nor suffer for it.

But, if you are asking, do we believe many of those who are visibly unregenerate part of the elect ~ we would say no, for until they believe and repent there is no promises of mercy to any living in known sins and unbelief.​

Question
You seem to be saying the “honest uninformed” will be saved by responding to some divine revelation. Isn’t this legalism? Paul says people are saved by grace through faith. Explain.

You said: No responsible person will be saved except on the basis of grace through faith, regardless of the divine revelation under which he lived and died. His positive response to the revelation under which he lived was a reflection of his faith. If I understand the divine testimony accurately, God’s grace cannot be applied to an accountable person without faith.

Buff, there are no honest folks according to God's law that is ungenerate, impossible. You make a difference bewtween responsible and uniformed, when the scriptures does not make that difference~we all sinned in Adam and died in Adam and received the same condemnation as Adam received.

I will add~we are saved by grace alone, through the faith and obedience of one person~Jesus Christ, God's appointed surety for his elect.

You added: "If I understand the divine testimony accurately, God’s grace cannot be applied to an accountable person without faith."

God's grace is not given to any without total/complete satisfaction to his law from a person who lived in perfect obedience to God's law by faith, in thought, word and deed. Christ, as the surety of God's elect did this for them, so that God's elect could be shown mercy.

 

[Red Baker]

I'll keep this very brief, because I'm not going to engage in fruitless conversation with someone who does not understand the basics.

David, once you begin to demean those you are debating, then you lose the ability to prove your point, if indeed it can be proven.

Salvation was accomplished, by the Lord Jesus Christ, on the cross, by his shed blood, broken body and death.

Well, his own life of faith, obedience, and death, and resurrection, did indeed accomplished our salvation from sin and condemnation.

Faith is only evidence of eternal life in the sense that those who have believed in Jesus are given eternal life. Initial faith in Jesus is certainly not evidence of prior eternal life!

Most certainly is David. Btw, you said: "those who have believed in Jesus are given eternal life" That is false! Those who were ordained to eternal life believed! A big difference. Acts 13:48...Also consider:

Acts 13:39​

“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

Justification is a sovereign act of the predestinating God (Rom 8:29-30; 5:18). Notice carefully: All that “believe” (present tense) are “justified” (perfect tense; passive voice). There is certain knowledge of full justification by trusting Christ (Gal 5:1-6). We believe in Christ to assure ourselves of justification by Him (Gal 2:16). Yet without works, our faith is nothing more than a devil’s faith (Jas 2:14-26).

John 3:14-16 (Webster)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The order could not clearer: firstly we believe, then we are given eternal life.

David there is no order here, nor an invitation.

What we have is a declaration of a biblical truth taught all through the scriptures~he who believes has eternal life and that person shall never perish in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

It sounds like you are conflating being born again (being given a new, soft human heart/spirit (Ez. 36:26,27)) with the eternal life that one is given following the faith that proceeds from this new human heart/spirit.

One was given eternal life before the world began if one of God's elect. It was promise to them.

Titus 1:2​

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”

Again:

2nd Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

Honestly, I don't think I've ever read such a heap of drivel about this subject.

Well, David, you are not alone.

Acts 17:18-20~"Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.