FATE OF THE UNREACHED

[makesends]

Funny thing about that. Consistent with the notion that that kind of faith is generated by God himself, is the realization that what we have seen by experience with God's work in us, does not diminish our faith but affirms the truth unseen. You would hardly say that Jesus faith was diminished, yet he was ever closer and surer of all facts, it seems to me, as his time on earth drew to a close, though even early on he knew who he was.

Our faith is not diminished, as reality is more clearly recognized, because it was not from us. (Not to mention that as we see what we hoped for, God takes us on to ever-increasing goals/challenges.) We will not lack for faith when we are in Heaven, even though we will know as we are known, because faith is the confidence in what we do not now see (to reword it for the point). When we do see, the faith is satisfied, but we will be IN HIM, completely, which is altogether by the Spirit of God, uninhibited by time. The nature of salvific faith does not change. It is not a tool for a purpose, to be done away with or to become obsolete, but rather it is the work of God himself, and not through means.

@fastfredy0 this is why I have even (granted, as a sort of projection) fronted the notion that both regeneration and faith ARE the Spirit of God in us. While that is probably an overstatement, and more than I know, I think there is something to the idea, though beyond human ability to understand.

In an odd mathematical way, I think, this is part of what it means to be IN CHRIST.

 

[fastfredy0]

@fastfredy0 this is why I have even (granted, as a sort of projection) fronted the notion that both regeneration and faith ARE the Spirit of God in us. While that is probably an overstatement, and more than I know, I think there is something to the idea, though beyond human ability to understand.

In an odd mathematical way, I think, this is part of what it means to be IN CHRIST.

In Him we live and breathe and have our being .... so I think my drippy nose is caused by him.
He knows I will have a drippy nose when I was nothing so the only way to know that is to be the cause of it in time. I'm not sure even that 2nd causes exist though I can see why one would thing so; it's not as if we can see God push a button to cause something.

 

[JIM]

I realize from past experience that you do not distinguish between believing in God and believing God, when sometimes there is a distinction. So there is no point in starting up that conversation again. I was merely pointing out that you added to the word of God and developed a doctrine from the addition.

And that is but one of the reasons that I really do not like engaging with you. I do distinguish between believing in God and believing God. That should be absolutely clear from what I wrote. And nothing that I have ever written here or elsewhere that I added to the word of God. I did not post a quote of God's word with any word added. I gave you my interpretation of the meaning of the passage.

 

[Red Baker]

Getting a straight answer would be easier with Kamala!

Amen for hope of a straight answer from Miss Chameleon, a.k.a. Kamala Harris. But your comparison of me to her is not even close, and kind of unchristian, but be as it may, it comes from those unable to provide answers, so they resort to attacking the messenger.

I was not asking about election in eternity past, nor about the resurrection; and I'm well aware of the Ordo Salutis.

You ask me:

When do you believe that salvation is applied to a person, and by what means?

So, I had to give the Ordo Salutis, as to leave no misunderstanding of what I understand and others that came before me. This order did not originate with me, but taught by men of God long before us. If you need proof I have it some. Not so sure you are well ground it his order, at least not totally. You also asked:

and by what means?

Which you came back and said:

Of course God uses means to save us; this is very clear in Scripture! The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, for everyone who believes.

And then quote Romans 1:16. Which you gave very little explanation of the meaning of the verse other than quoting parts of it.

Romans 1:16,17~"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

These two verses are glorious. This verse and the next are the basis and summary of Paul’s doctrine for the next 11 chapters. We reject interpretations to fit Arminianism or Calvinism, and their abuse of Romans 1:16

Of the gospel of Christ.

The gospel of Christ should be properly understood to avoid confusion about its nature. It describes God’s love of damned sinners and His wise and powerful provision of a Saviour for them according to the good pleasure of His own discriminating will to save them from every evil thing in themselves, in the world, and from His own perfect justice. It describes the Lord Jesus Christ from the Seed of the Woman (Gen 3:15) to the King of kings (Rev 19:11-16) and soon appearing Groom of believers (Rev 19:5-10; 22:20)!

For it is the power of God.

The sense in which the gospel is God’s power is a very crucial and critical distinction. Many hold the gospel as having sacramental power itself or as the potent means that can bring about the eternal salvation of those that were previously dead and damned in sin. Many believe election is fully conditional on man’s reception of the gospel. We deny. Many believe the merits of Christ’s death depend on his belief of the gospel. We deny. Many believe reception of the gospel is the powerful means of regeneration. We deny.

Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, we understand it to reveal God’s power. Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, believers are informed of God’s power. Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, it is received by some as telling of it. Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, it is perceived as disclosing it by some.

The immediate context says the gospel reveals salvation, but is not salvation itself (1:17). The gospel is the good news or glad tidings or joyful information about God’s power. The sense of the phrase is simple – for the good news is the power of God unto salvation! The wording here should be compared to the fuller, plainer passage in I Cor 1:18,22-24.

To those perishing the gospel is foolishness, but those saved perceive it as God’s power. Is the gospel intrinsically, literally, or actually foolishness? No, it is only heard as such! Jewish minds stumbled due to Jewish fables; Greek minds considered it beneath them.

But those chosen to salvation considered it a revelation of God’s power and wisdom.

But Jesus denied the gospel had power of its own to save men vitally, no matter what methods were used to enhance it to an unregenerate audience (Luke 16:27-31; John 5:39-40).

God must work His great power in us before we can or will believe the gospel – the same power that raised Jesus from the dead (Eph 1:19-20; 2:1-7). The gospel brings forth into activity what God has previously worked in us, including the gift and grace of faith (Phil 2:12-13; Gal 5:23; II Pet 1:1-5).

Paul did not carry the gospel to powerfully regenerate at Rome’s malls, prisons, hospitals, orphanages, Coliseum, or brothels – he wanted to preach it to the Roman saints (1:8-15)!

The gospel does not bring life and immortality – it only brings it to light (2nd Tim 1:9-10). The gospel does not bring reconciliation – it is only the good word of it (2nd Cor 5:18-21).

What power does the gospel describe? It reveals how the righteousness of God, that the law of God describes, can be freely given to sinners, yea, those who are at enmity against God, without any works on their part, even faith, which it also the gospel describes is not possible for such sinners.

To be continue....

 

[Red Baker]

Continue from above.....

Unto salvation.

The gospel, or good news, or glad tidings, brings the information of how God saves men...it is God testimony to us. God has powerfully saved His elect, and the gospel of Christ tells believing elect about it!

The only salvation coming by way of the gospel is one of assurance, comfort, and understanding, not one of eternal life from the lake of fire to heaven, which requires rightly dividing the phases of salvation (Ist Cor 15:2; Phil 2:12; Ist Tim 4:16; James 2:14-26; 5:19-20; etc.).

The gospel cannot give life, for those perishing consider it foolishness (Ist Cor 1:18,22-23). The gospel cannot give life, for the natural man cannot and will not believe (Ist Cor 2:14). The gospel cannot give life, for it is a savor of death unto death, not life (2nd Cor 2:14-16). The gospel cannot give life, for those under Satan’s spell will not believe it (2nd Cor 4:3-4). The gospel cannot give life, for believers already have life (Ist Cor 1:18,24; 2nd Co 2:14-16)!

The nature of man prior to regeneration precludes any help from the gospel, for he does not need help or news of help – he needs life, and only God can give eternal life! Man is dead in hearing, so preaching long or loud will not change him (John 8:43,47). Man is dead in seeing, so he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3; Matthew 13:14). Man is dead in understanding: he cannot comprehend the gospel (John 1:5; Rom 3:11). Man is dead in his affection, so he has no desire to believe or obey (Ps 14:2-3; Rom 8:7-8).

To every one that believeth.

Get these points down solidly – only the elect can or ever will believe, only those justified by Christ can or will believe, and only the regenerate can or will believe. There is nothing in this text about offering eternal life to anyone or carrying it to them. No one but chosen and ordained sheep believe (Ist Cor 1:24-31; Acts 13:48; John 10:26)! Only believers get excited about the gospel (Acts 13:48; Romans 1:12; Ist Peter 2:6-8).

Rather than this text teaching that all those saved must or will believe, it is rather teaching that belief of the gospel establishes a person in the proper basis of their salvation – the power of God in Christ Jesus to save His elect in all phases of salvation.

If we believe the gospel, we were powerfully drawn to it (John 6:44,65; Acts 16:14). If we believe the gospel, we were regenerated before believing (John 5:24; Ist John 4:15; 5:1).

The N.T. was written to assure believers of eternal life on the ground of faith (Ist John 5:13).

Therefore, we clearly grasp Paul’s desire to teach faithful saints at Rome, for they were beloved of God, called to be saints, and full of faith to benefit from the gospel (1:6-15)! Paul did not preach for the salvation of men without faith, but those with it (2nd Thess 3:2). Therefore, his chosen method of operation was to find men with faith in synagogues or where prayer was wont to be made (Acts 16:13; 17:2-3), seeking the elect (II Tim 2:10). This epistle, containing the gospel of God, was for a church of faithful saints in need of further establishment in the grace and power of God against vain confidence in the law.

One more post looking at Romans 1:17

 

[JIM]

Justification is not synonymous with salvation.

That is correct; justification is not synonymous with salvation. However, justification occurs at the very same instant of salvation. Here, I take salvation to mean that point in the life of the penitent believer when God changes him from being a lost sinner to being a saint and given eternal life. There are several different words and phrases that point to that instant in the life of the one who has been saved. Those different words and phrases are not always present in every instance the subject is broached, but always implied.

 

[Red Baker]

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.​

For therein.

As the coordinating conjunction for indicates, this verse is connected to the previous one. What is in the context that this verse relates back to? The gospel just described (1:16). It is in the gospel we learn of justification, or being made righteous in the sight of God.

Is the righteousness of God.

The gospel describe that righteousness we must have in order to stand before Him without blame or guilt (3:21-22; 10:3; 2nd Cor 5:21). The righteousness of God here is that legal standing of justification before God with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ to our account. This is a most important concept … how shall man be just with God (Job 9:2; 15:14; 25:4; Ps 130:3)? Justification and righteousness before God is the theme of this epistle.

Revealed.

The gospel reveals how sinners are righteous before God, but it does not make them so. The gospel brings life and immortality to light, but it does not bring them life (2nd Tim 1:9-10). As we said above~the gospel is the word of reconciliation with God, but not reconciliation (2nd Cor 5:18-21). The gospel publishes peace and salvation, but it does not bring either of them legally (Is 52:7). The gospel, or good news, tells us how God made us righteous through Christ, but it does not help anyone become literally or legally righteous before God, which is Christ’s work. The means of righteousness are not described here but by reference to God’s power in Christ Jesus that the previous verse described (1:16).

From faith to faith.

What did Paul mean by the gospel revealing righteousness before God from faith to faith? The confusion on these words is great and the various opinions are legion. Can we know? The gospel is only profitable to reveal God’s justifying righteousness to believers (1:16). Paul stated his desire and intentions to preach the gospel to the faithful in Rome (1:15). Paul has described the potential benefit of their mutual faith working together (1:12). He will return to this very same line of simple reasoning later in the epistle (10:6-8). The gospel truths can only be revealed from a person who has faith, to another person who has faith~it is impossible to reveal truths to a person who is not a believer.

Perhaps you would like to give us all a brief testimony of how God saved you (not asking about election or the resurrection, but what happened in your experience)?

Saved in a vital sense? I have no date to provide for you, but could get close to the season~somewhere in early seventies when I was around 26 years old. I joined a small church around fall of that year and was baptized into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ with a commitment to follow him all the days of my life. Concerning my practical salvation, or growth in the Lord, it has been ongoing since then.

 

[David1701]

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.​

For therein.

As the coordinating conjunction for indicates, this verse is connected to the previous one. What is in the context that this verse relates back to? The gospel just described (1:16). It is in the gospel we learn of justification, or being made righteous in the sight of God.

Is the righteousness of God.

The gospel describe that righteousness we must have in order to stand before Him without blame or guilt (3:21-22; 10:3; 2nd Cor 5:21). The righteousness of God here is that legal standing of justification before God with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ to our account. This is a most important concept … how shall man be just with God (Job 9:2; 15:14; 25:4; Ps 130:3)? Justification and righteousness before God is the theme of this epistle.

Revealed.

The gospel reveals how sinners are righteous before God, but it does not make them so. The gospel brings life and immortality to light, but it does not bring them life (2nd Tim 1:9-10). As we said above~the gospel is the word of reconciliation with God, but not reconciliation (2nd Cor 5:18-21). The gospel publishes peace and salvation, but it does not bring either of them legally (Is 52:7). The gospel, or good news, tells us how God made us righteous through Christ, but it does not help anyone become literally or legally righteous before God, which is Christ’s work. The means of righteousness are not described here but by reference to God’s power in Christ Jesus that the previous verse described (1:16).

From faith to faith.

What did Paul mean by the gospel revealing righteousness before God from faith to faith? The confusion on these words is great and the various opinions are legion. Can we know? The gospel is only profitable to reveal God’s justifying righteousness to believers (1:16). Paul stated his desire and intentions to preach the gospel to the faithful in Rome (1:15). Paul has described the potential benefit of their mutual faith working together (1:12). He will return to this very same line of simple reasoning later in the epistle (10:6-8). The gospel truths can only be revealed from a person who has faith, to another person who has faith~it is impossible to reveal truths to a person who is not a believer.

Saved in a vital sense? I have no date to provide for you, but could get close to the season~somewhere in early seventies when I was around 26 years old. I joined a small church around fall of that year and was baptized into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ with a commitment to follow him all the days of my life. Concerning my practical salvation, or growth in the Lord, it has been ongoing since then.

<sigh>
Are you unwilling, or incapable, of giving succinct, straightforward answers?

The only succinct part is your "testimony", which is completely devoid of conviction of sin, godly sorrow, repentance, faith, internal change from death to life, from light to darkness, or anything else that might indicate genuine salvation. If you did experience any of that, then why is this part so empty, when you are willing to write screeds and screeds about your doctrine?

 

[David1701]

In Him we live and breathe and have our being .... so I think my drippy nose is caused by him.
He knows I will have a drippy nose when I was nothing so the only way to know that is to be the cause of it in time. I'm not sure even that 2nd causes exist though I can see why one would thing so; it's not as if we can see God push a button to cause something.

Secondary causes certainly exist.

What causes a snooker ball to go into the pocket?

1) God
2) The player's decision
3) The player's arm
4) The snooker cue
5) The white ball
6) The laws of physics
etc.

 

[Mr GLee]

Does not faith diminish as it becomes reality?
Faith is things hoped for .... does one still hope for something that has occurred?

Faith let there be power

The work of faith it becomes complete. "Let there be" and "it was good".

Faith is a work

Faith without its working or labor is dead faith. "Let there be" and "nothing changes nothing"

 

[Red Baker]

Nowhere does scripture state any person is saved by faith, especially not causally. What scripture does explicitly states is salvation is a gift and not of ourselves. That part in between the word "grace" and the phrase "not of ourselves," is the predicate clause to which the "not of ourselves applies. It's not one or the other (grace or faith); it is both.

Amen~well stated!

 

[Red Baker]

The only succinct part is your "testimony", which is completely devoid of conviction of sin, godly sorrow, repentance, faith, internal change from death to life, from light to darkness, or anything else that might indicate genuine salvation. If you did experience any of that, then why is this part so empty, when you are willing to write screeds and screeds about your doctrine?

I said plainly for 26 years of my life on earth, I lived a life without God being my Lord~lived fulfilling the lust of the flesh. The new birth changed my life. No man knows exactly when God's Spirit regenerates a person, we only can see the fruits of this new birth, evident by faith and repentance.

"which is completely devoid of conviction of sin, godly sorrow, repentance, faith, internal change "~these fruits of the Spirit comes later, some cases maybe instance, some later, some, not so visible, and abrupt. None of what you have mentioned comes before regeneration, not one of them.

 

[Red Baker]

It is not phases or stages, it is different perspectives in those scriptures. Eternal in the Godhead (2 Tim 1:9); what Christ came into the world to do (1 Tim 1:15);
how it is done (Titus 3:5); the hope that is yet future of the consummation of our salvation (Romans 13:11).

This is not the legal phase. The legal declaration ----which is "justified"----applies to people, not Jesus. Jesus is not being justified, he is providing the work necessary for justification. Your reasons given for its necessity are correct. Your assertion that it is a legal phase is incorrect. You make that assertion of phases of salvation, (incorrectly in the false doctrines that you pull out of it) and have in other posts extended it to the conclusion that faith has nothing to do with our justification. Which is a blatant denial of Scripture. You have justification applied to the wrong person.

Arial, I'll come back to address some of your posts later, thanks for your patience in waiting.

 

[David1701]

I said plainly for 26 years of my life on earth, I lived a life without God being my Lord~lived fulfilling the lust of the flesh. The new birth changed my life. No man knows exactly when God's Spirit regenerates a person, we only can see the fruits of this new birth, evident by faith and repentance.

"which is completely devoid of conviction of sin, godly sorrow, repentance, faith, internal change "~these fruits of the Spirit comes later, some cases maybe instance, some later, some, not so visible, and abrupt. None of what you have mentioned comes before regeneration, not one of them.

Every man knows exactly when he was regenerated (if he was), because it's like being hit by a truck - it changes you dramatically, and instantly. It immediately produces repentance, faith and love for the Lord that was not there previously. It's like a bright light being switched on in your spirit, which, until a moment before, was full of darkness.

This is the testimony of everyone whom God has saved, by his grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

"Long my imprisoned spirit lay
fast bound in sin and nature's night;
thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee."

[verse 4 of And Can It Be, by Charles Wesley]

 

[Josheb]

That is correct; justification is not synonymous with salvation. However, justification occurs at the very same instant of salvation.

Are you sure?

Because if that is what you actually believe then there are three areas where that will contradict the volitional soteriology you post. The first is we are justified first by the blood of Christ (Rom. 5:9), justification is also a gift (Rom. 3:24), and it is God who justifies the justified (Rom. 8:30). The second is volitionalism asserts faith precedes regeneration but if justification occurs at the time of salvation, then the person is not justified when they display faith. The third conflict lays in the logical necessity of those believing in God still deciding not to choose Christ being justified but not saved. If a person is justified by faith and justification occurs at the same time as salvation, then faith is deterministic. Alternatively, if faith occurs at the moment of faith, then it doesn't occur at the moment of salvation.

Here, I take salvation to mean that point in the life of the penitent believer when God changes him from being a lost sinner to being a saint and given eternal life. There are several different words and phrases that point to that instant in the life of the one who has been saved. Those different words and phrases are not always present in every instance the subject is broached, but always implied.

All of it is a gift of God from God and not the causation of the sinner. That was the point being made in Post 116.






And, if it hasn't been done already, you might want to read the opening post and peruse some of the thread because this thread is not in the Arminianism and Calvinism board. The op is not about that. Furthermore, the op is repeatedly couched in what Jesus (or Paul, or scripture, or the posters) "seems to say." In other words, there is a lot of speculation and very little exegesis. Be careful you don't end up unwittingly supporting another poster's eisegetic imagination simply because he is thought to be a volitionalist like you, or simply because he speculates infants are saved (even if infants are saved, it does not mean they are saved as @Buff Scott Jr. thinks). In Post 115 he posted the salvation of Ephesians 2:8, "this salvation is in no sense of yourselves, Jesus seems to be saying in Ephesians 2:8, but it is the result of your faith in Him," (emphasis mine). That statement is self-contradictory because and he denied faith was gifted to the person. In other words,

"Nothing in this verse indicates that God conferred saving faith upon us. Every competent person has the will to either believe in God and His son—or reject them."​

So, logically speaking, salvation is not of ourselves, but salvation is through the faith of every unregenerate sinner's already existing competent will. That will would, by definition, be of ourselves..... and, therefore, salvation would be of ourselves.

"It is not a question of the unbeliever not having the element of faith throughout his life, as pertaining to many aspects of his life. That happens to be part of his creation.... As an example, if he has the self-made ability to have little or no faith in some political leader, he also has the self-made ability to have faith in him. The principle works both ways."​

Those comments directly contradict the assertion salvation is in no sense of ourselves. Be careful about backing a guy who contradicts himself.

 

[fastfredy0]

Secondary causes certainly exist.

What causes a snooker ball to go into the pocket?

1) God
2) The player's decision
3) The player's arm
4) The snooker cue
5) The white ball
6) The laws of physics

I see your point but consider the possibility that God is the direct cause of the continued existence of objects and enforcement of the laws of physics which would mean there is no 2nd causes. There is afew verses that back this up...one says something like if God were to leave we turn back to dust which suggests we are dependent upon Him as first cause to continue to exist...the other verse is: in Him we live and breathe and continue to exist.
Second causes supports the idea of deism, the there are other powers the control things.
God is Spirit so we cannot detect His being first cause of everything as our senses don't detect Him so we have one observable evidence of second causes.
That's my thoughts. Maybe if God left the billiard balls would still interact according to what we call physics. Maybe God has to be omnipresent in order for something to exist and operate.

Note: I am defining 2nd causes as God setting things up and the rules they operate by and then sitting back and letting things occur by His set rules.

 

[fastfredy0]

Faith is a work

The cause of our faith is God. (This is the work of God the you believe)
The effect of the faith God caused us to have is "works".

Faith without its working or labor is dead faith. "Let there be" and "nothing changes nothing"

Agreed. .. those works being caused by the Spirit

 

[Mr GLee]

The cause of our faith is God. (This is the work of God the you believe)
The effect of the faith God caused us to have is "works".

Hi Thanks

I would offer.

Yes God is the source as the unseen power of faith that Faithful Emanuel works in us .In order to both (the gospel key ) hear his understanding and empower dying mankind to to it to his glory . He gives us little of his understanding calling Christian's you with little faith, he gives us plenty by which we can believe the invisible things as a anchor to ones new soul . Peter knowing he did not have the spiritual strength to do the will prayed increase the power of Christ working in new creatures

According to Hebrew 6 The faith as power of Christ the better thing that accompanies salvation .

God's promise he will not forget the good works he works with us in his name as power . Powerful faith and it was very good labor of love

Hebrew 6: 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

[Red Baker]

This is the testimony of everyone whom God has saved, by his grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

This is not the testimony of the word of God~maybe a testimony from men like the Wesley's, who were Armenians~even though children of God just in error.

Every man knows exactly when he was regenerated (if he was), because it's like being hit by a truck - it changes you dramatically, and instantly. It immediately produces repentance, faith and love for the Lord that was not there previously. It's like a bright light being switched on in your spirit, which, until a moment before, was full of darkness.

Then David, you are showing me that you are still in error on this all important doctrine and you do not understand John 3:1-8.

Do you not understand why John 3:1-8 is in the word of God? You said:

Every man knows exactly when he was regenerated (if he was), because it's like being hit by a truck

The word of God said that the new birth is like the wind, not being hit like a truck!

John 3:1-8~"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Briefly.....Nicodemus came to Jesus and made a very sincere, godly confession, concerning who Jesus was, a confession as sound and scriptural as anyone on this forum could make. He said: "we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."

This is a confession of a man that has been quicken to life, yet without very much spiritual understanding, as we see by knowing the rest of this discourse. Even the Lord said this to him: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. "

These words are written for our learning to show us that such an humble confession as Nicodemus gave proves that he was born of God.

The Lord went on to explain how this birth takes place~by comparing it to the wind. The wind cannot be seen, from where it comes and where it goes (so much more could be added, but trying to keep this short).

When we read this discourse we must understand that the new birth is totally unperceived by us as to the exact working of it~we can only see the result of it. The when the new birth take place, man is totally passive, God alone is the only active person working, he comes and go unperceived by man. A person could be doing just about anything under heaven when God is quickening that person to life. You could even be dead asleep, and many other such things~he does not need our cooperation in thsi birth, neither does he need the will of another man helping him.

David, you are just about as confused as Nicodemus was, even though a godly man, yet he had a long ways to go in his understanding of such truths, even then, he may never have grasp its truths.

I have an outline of these wonderful verses...a verse by verse exposition where I could provide much more detail.

 

[David1701]

I see your point but consider the possibility that God is the direct cause of the continued existence of objects and enforcement of the laws of physics which would mean there is no 2nd causes. There is afew verses that back this up...one says something like if God were to leave we turn back to dust which suggests we are dependent upon Him as first cause to continue to exist...the other verse is: in Him we live and breathe and continue to exist.
Second causes supports the idea of deism, the there are other powers the control things.
God is Spirit so we cannot detect His being first cause of everything as our senses don't detect Him so we have one observable evidence of second causes.
That's my thoughts. Maybe if God left the billiard balls would still interact according to what we call physics. Maybe God has to be omnipresent in order for something to exist and operate.

Note: I am defining 2nd causes as God setting things up and the rules they operate by and then sitting back and letting things occur by His set rules.

Ah, well, that's not how I would define secondary causes. God doesn't sit back and watch passively; rather, he works all things according to the counsel of his own will; however, there can only be one primary cause (God), so all other causes are secondary (or tertiary, quaternary, etc.).