Does the Lord take us to heaven and we reign with Him

[Wordsmith]

The problem here is that you are not able to discern two events that Paul was writing about. It is liken to Paul knows what he is saying and those that read his epistles know he is referring to 2 events, but believers today has a hard time discerning that message in Englis

I believe I am able to discern but what I am not allowed to do is insert assumptions into scripture to divide coming of the Lord passages that are the same event into multiple events.

Example;

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Note how those who deny the deity of Christ would take Jesus's prayer to the Father as being the only true God while ignoring the additional testimony of knowing the only true God by Jesus Christ also. Not to mention other scriptures testifying to His deity for which they would take verse 3 out of context for in error.

Not relevant to this topic!

Getting back to that chapter; how can we know Paul was talking about 2 events? By the other scriptures, even another convoluted one in Matthew 24th chapter in regards to Jesus's speaking. How does one separate is by the knowledge of other scriptures.

I do not believe scripture is "convoluted". Man convolutes it at times by making assumptions that are not in scripture to support a false narrative.

Jesus is answering 3 questions put to Him by His disciples and He is not answering them in chronological order either.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The sign of His coming precedes the end of the world; that is two events which Jesus has to help you see. From verses 4-13 is Jesus describing the latter days we are living in now.

Then read this;

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Most believers apply that to what believers are doing as missionaries out in the world but no. This is to occur at the pre great tribulation rapture event as it will not be a secret rapture but unfortunately, only a few will be found abiding in Him & willing to go when He comes for why there will be dead saints left unburied in fallen Babylon USA in Revelation 18th chapter..

So link that to the 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in Revelation 14:6-13 as everyone will know the gospel, then the end comes where the calamity of one third of the earth gets burned up ( Revelation 8:7 ) along with USA, daughter of Babylon ( Revelation 18th chapter to Revelation 14:8 as the 2nd angel heralds its fall while after that, the third angel warns everyone of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast in order to buy & sell to survive in the coming New World Order which is the lake of fire.

That first angel at the rapture event is when the gospel is spread all over the world so no one has no excuse of not knowing the gospel before destruction comes on that third of the earth which USA will be gone. That calamity will set up the New World Order for why the 3rd angel will warn everyone of the consequence for taking the mark is the lake of fire and so they will not have an excuse there either; hence the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth.

If you read Revelation 14:1-5, it testifies of who makes up His personal choir that gets redeemed from the earth from the land of the living, the 144,000 honest virgin men. This does not mean they are the only ones raptured, but just testifying to who makes up His personal choir.

If that is not enough; consider Revelation 19:1-110 about the Marriage Supper in Heaven and then in verse 11, Heaven "opens" again for His returns with those saints that were raptured to do battles with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Just to make a point and not to try and be dogmatic about the marriage supper I will make a few statements.

1. This is all we have in scripture on the marriage supper and many have waxed long and preached sermons on a topic that is not given in detail but only mentioned here once.

2. It is only stated that the time for the marriage supper "is come".

3. No detail is given about the supper other than those to attend and their dinner attire.

4. No mention of the location, many ASSUME it to be in heaven but that is nowhere stated.

5. No description of the actual event for clues as to location or menu.

My point is you place this in heaven with absolutely nothing in scripture to verify that.

Pre-trib rapture proponents (of which I was one in the past) have no scripture to verify that position, only opinion and assumptions.

Now the world's armies is defeated and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years, then those that were left behind as not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event as well as transformed from the land of the living, that die with new believers after the rapture, during the great tribulation, shall be resurrected after the great tribulation. When you compare Revelation 19:11-21 & Revelation 20:1-6, WITH Zechariah 14:1-5, this testifies that Jesus has touched down on earth ( the Mount of Olives ) to do battle and so when that resurrection takes place, Jesus is ON EARTH in meeting those resurrected after the great tribulation, and so not in the air.

Any questions? God be willing, I shall be around to answer them but that should be enough to digest that Paul was talking about 2 events which takes wisdom from the Lord to discern that in order to align that with other scriptures.

I really do not have any questions. I have debated this issue on forums such as this one for about the last 10 years and have heard many arguments most likely some you have never heard of and I still reject it as false, because it is not in scripture anywhere without manipulating what is actually there.

Again my moment of truth came with this scripture while discussioning the rapture with a co-worke years ago

2 Thessalonians 2​

1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The coming of our Lord and our gathering are the context here.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is the same day as the coming of our Lord and our gathering. There is no reason in the text to divide these up.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Yes I know the words "that day shall not come" are not in the original text but that has no bearing on the meaning. Take out those words and read verse 2 and 3 together and it says the same thing.
The coming of the Lord and our gathering will not happen "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed" this is what is stated clearly in this text.
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Those that try to make the the "he" that is taken out of the way the Holy Spirit or the church only create more problems that the text does not support.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This coming is the same coming as in verse 1 and I see no reason in the text to make another coming.

It is only by taking a doctrinal scalpel to this chapter can the pre-trib believers get around the truth of what is said here.

There is no pre-trib rapture of the church there is only one coming of the Lord in our future!

 

[Wordsmith]

Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 comparison

Matt.24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev.6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

When Matt 24:29 “ Immediately after the tribulation”
When Rev. 6:12 “when he had opened the sixth seal”


What Matt 24:29 “shall the sun be darkened”
What Rev. 6:12 “the sun became black as sackcloth”


What Matt. 24:29 “the moon shall not give her light”
What Rev. 6:12 “the moon became as blood”


What Matt.24:13 “the stars shall fall from heaven”
What Rev. 6:13 “stars of heaven fell unto the earth”


What Matt.24:29 “the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”
What Rev. 6:14 “the heaven departed as a scroll”


What Matt.24:30 “then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn”
What Rev 6:15 “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains”


What Matt.24:30 “they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”
What Rev, 6:16 “hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb”


Could these refer to the same event? I believe they do.

 

[ChristB4us]

I believe I am able to discern but what I am not allowed to do is insert assumptions into scripture to divide coming of the Lord passages that are the same event into multiple events.

It is not assumptions t align the truths in other scriptures with the reading of the ones you are referring to, to see it is misapplied.

Not relevant to this topic!

Showing the example for how people misread scriptures is relevant.

I do not believe scripture is "convoluted". Man convolutes it at times by making assumptions that are not in scripture to support a false narrative.

Do you believe @Eleanor 's application of applying the last day as being at the Great white Throne Judgment?
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That means no resurrection after the great tribulation and no 1000 year reign of Christ & no Satan loose from the pit after that 1000 year reign to stage his last rebellion for a small season.

See how applying the last day that it can only mean the Great white Throne Judgment when you disregard other scriptures saying otherwise in showing the bigger picture?

There is no pre-trib rapture of the church there is only one coming of the Lord in our future!

I have shown you scripture reference of Revelation 19:1-10 had the Marriage Supper in Heaven BEFORE Heaven OPENED again in Revelation 19:11-21 for Christ to ride out with the saints to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem.

This is the whole point of Jesus having the apostle John write the Book of Revelation to warn the 7 churches to be ready or else, as one church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25 is warned that if they do not repent, they will be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation to die.

That or else is being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event as 5 of the 7 churches are called to repent and 2 of the 7 churches were exhorted to hold fast or else as that or else can be nothing else but to be left behind to die at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

May God bless you in Jesus's name in the reading of His words that you may grow to bear more fruit in the knowledge of Him .

 

[Eleanor]

It is your misapplication of Numbers 12:8 is why this is yours.

When how you apply scriptures does not line up with the majority of scriptures that testifies otherwise, it is mighty convenient how you pull that prophetic riddles out to play when it could easily be applied to that scripture of your insistence of what the last day means.

Indeed they could, however the last day is irrelevant to this discussion.
What is relevant is your assertion of two second comings and two resurrections, with which NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church is in disagreement as demonstrated (post #77).

It is not contradicting in according to your point of view by saying all other scriptures that testify otherwise are dark saying or prophetic riddles.

God said that to all prophets (of which the apostle John was one) but Moses, he gives prophecy in riddles (dark sayings) and not clearly (Nu 12:8). Likewise, your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles in disagreement with apostolic teaching (post #77) is not authoritative to the church .

The Book of Revelation was Jesus telling the apostle John to write so where and when do you recognize that authority.

The apostle John enjoys the same authority as do all the other prophets of the Bible.
Authority in prophecy is not the issue here. The issue is prophecy and didactics.

All apostolic teaching (didactics) is authoritative (Lk 10:16).
Prophecy is not didactics, prophecy can be interpreted in more than one way, depending on the meanings assigned to its figures.
You interpret prophetic riddles according to your interpretation of other prophetic riddles, as well as in disagreement with apostolic teaching.
I interpret prophetic riddles in agreement with authoritative apostolic teaching.
No interpretation of prophetic riddles in disagreement with apostolic teaching can be correct.

And that is why most believers that are in error remain subverted to whatever mindset they have on the scripture which is not aligning with the truths in other scripture, because of their own understanding or by the church's teaching or by a favorite teacher/pastor.

Those scriptures being prophecy given in riddles and not clearly (Nu 12:8), are subject to more than one interpretation, none of which are authoritative, the only measure of their truth being their agreement with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), which agreement still does not establish the correctness of their application, but which disagreement does establish their error.

 

[Wordsmith]

It is not assumptions t align the truths in other scriptures with the reading of the ones you are referring to, to see it is misapplied.

You speak often of other scriptures but do not show how they specifically make your case. It’s is my contention that only by dividing all of the coming of the Lord passages into neat little piles based on differences in wording can one come up with multiple comings of the Lord. When one harmonizes scripture there is only one more coming of the Lord in our future. There are no clearly stated passages that say Jesus comes and gathers us back to heaven where we wait for the tribulation to unfold. That is all assumed fantasy arrived at by making assumptions never stated in scripture. Just as I pointed out and you failed to respond specifically to the marriage super assumptions. We can go over these coming of the Lord passages one by one if you wish and we will never find a pre- trib rapture. When you make a wrong assumption about one passage then tie it to another you corrupt the meaning of both. Scripture clearly states we are gathered after the falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin is revealed and immediately after the tribulation that does not line up with pre-trib doctrine.

 

[Wordsmith]

Early church Fathers who did not subscribe to a pre-trib rapture event.


“O unreasoning men! Understanding not what has been proved by all these passages , that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other , in which He shall come from heaven with glory , when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians ,who having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus,”

From: “Dialogue of Justin Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew” Chapter CX

The Researchers Library of Ancient Texts Volume 2 page 227



“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming pf Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in {the times of} which {resurrection} the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and {with respect to } those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: “ And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,” And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out , that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon the earth, should be under the rule of saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that {His} Kingdom shall be in it, saying, “Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. “

From: Irenaeus Against Heresies Book V Chapter XXXV

The Researchers Library of Ancient Texts Volume 2 page 523



“For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past , when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when. According to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory , accompamied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils.”

From: The First Apology of Justin Chapter LII

The Researchers Library of Ancient Texts Volume 2 page 154

 

[Wordsmith]

Comparing Mathew 24 with 1 Thessalonians 4

Matt. 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Lord coming from heaven
In The Clouds

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Angels sound trumpet
Elect gathered


1 Thess. 4 : 16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord coming from heaven
Trump of God sounds

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Believers caught up
In The Clouds

Four elements from each passage match. Both passages describe the same event.

 

[Wordsmith]

And that is why most believers that are in error remain subverted to whatever mindset they have on the scripture which is not aligning with the truths in other scripture, because of their own understanding or by the church's teaching or by a favorite teacher/pastor.

Perfect description of the false pre-trib doctrine. Just look at its history John Nelson Darby was one of the main proponents of this doctrine in the 1830"s. This was later highly popularized by Hal Lindsey and his "the Late Great Planet Earth" series. The Scofield reference Bible also had a role in the probation of this doctrine.

You will be hard pressed to find this pre-trib doctrine in any of the early church fathers writings. In the whole of church history the is a relatively new thing.

If you look at a world wide picture of the church, the post tribulation view is the more wide spread view by far. So you are correct when you said:

And that is why most believers that are in error remain subverted to whatever mindset they have on the scripture which is not aligning with the truths in other scripture, because of their own understanding or by the church's teaching or by a favorite teacher/pastor.

I believed this error for many years just because I did listen to those teachers and read those books and listened to those preachers.

 

[Eleanor]

It is your misapplication of Numbers 12:8 is why this is yours.

When how you apply scriptures does not line up with the majority of scriptures that testifies otherwise,

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), couldn't be any clearer. There will be no appearing of Christ prior to his coming in judgment, for Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between (Heb 9:27-28).
Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, at which judgement he will "bring salvation."
Note that in Heb 9:27-28, Jesus brings salvation when he "appears,"
and in 1 Pe 1:5, 13, Jesus brings salvation when he is "revealed."
So that his "appearing" and his "revealing" are the same thing; his coming in judgment (Heb 9:27-28, 2 Th 1:6-10), and not two separate events.
Therefore, there can be no appearing for the rapture separate from his revealing at the judgment, because they are one and the same event, as Paul teaches in 2 Th 1:6-10, 2:1-8.

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) presents only one second coming, one resurrection and one rapture.
Anything else from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles are false notions of man in disagreement with authoritative apostolic teaching.

 

[ChristB4us]

You speak often of other scriptures but do not show how they specifically make your case. It’s is my contention that only by dividing all of the coming of the Lord passages into neat little piles based on differences in wording can one come up with multiple comings of the Lord. When one harmonizes scripture there is only one more coming of the Lord in our future. There are no clearly stated passages that say Jesus comes and gathers us back to heaven where we wait for the tribulation to unfold. That is all assumed fantasy arrived at by making assumptions never stated in scripture. Just as I pointed out and you failed to respond specifically to the marriage super assumptions. We can go over these coming of the Lord passages one by one if you wish and we will never find a pre- trib rapture. When you make a wrong assumption about one passage then tie it to another you corrupt the meaning of both. Scripture clearly states we are gathered after the falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin is revealed and immediately after the tribulation that does not line up with pre-trib doctrine.

So what do you do with Him as the coming of the Bridegroom coming to receive His abiding bride of Christ to their mansions above as prophesied by Him in John 14:1-3 & Matthew 25:1-13?

Why is Jesus warning believers to be ready in a time not descriptive of the end of the great tribulation where the saints cannot be ensnared by the cares of this life that they would not want to leave? Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36

How do you deal with Revelation 19:1-10 that testify to that Marriage Supper in Heaven BEFORE it opens for Him in Revelation 19:11 to be riding back with those pre great tribulation raptured saints to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem which Zechariah 14:1-5 confirms?

So if you wish to avoid the scriptures to this topic because you do not want to divide the coming of the Lord, thus your mind is made up, I understand.

It is really on the Lord to lead you to read those scriptures and see the truth in His words for why He is warning believers to be ready to leave or else be left behind. If you ever do, credit Him for it & give Him the glory, because I was done coming here, seeing how nobody was hearing His words and therefore will not hear my words.

May God bless you.

 

[ChristB4us]

You will be hard pressed to find this pre-trib doctrine in any of the early church fathers writings. In the whole of church history the is a relatively new thing.

You would be hard pressed to explain what the Book of Revelation is all about as you need to look no further ahead for the truth from ignorant church fathers later on in church history.

Who needs church fathers when you have Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd to give you wisdom in seeing the truth in His words?

 

[ChristB4us]

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), couldn't be any clearer. There will be no appearing of Christ prior to his coming in judgment, for Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between (Heb 9:27-28).
Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, at which judgement he will "bring salvation."
Note that in Heb 9:27-28, Jesus brings salvation when he "appears,"
and in 1 Pe 1:5, 13, Jesus brings salvation when he is "revealed."
So that his "appearing" and his "revealing" are the same thing; his coming in judgment (Heb 9:27-28, 2 Th 1:6-10), and not two separate events.
Therefore, there can be no appearing for the rapture separate from his revealing at the judgment, because they are one and the same event, as Paul teaches in 2 Th 1:6-10, 2:1-8.

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) presents only one second coming, one resurrection and one rapture.
Anything else from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles are false notions of man in disagreement with authoritative apostolic teaching.

None that you can see or as obviously you are not willing to see with His help.

For anyone else reading this;

The pre great tribulation rapture event IS when God will judge His house first ( 1 Peter 4:17 & 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 ) for why He is warning believers to be ready for the Bridegroom to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven or else. Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 12:40-49

Professing believers left behind ate still saved but not found abiding in Him because of iniquity on that foundation ( Titus 1:16 ) OR/AND they were unwilling to go because they loved their treasures note verses Luke 17:31-33 or loved their lives on earth so as to not want to leave. Luke 21:33-36 & Luke 17:26-37

 

[Eleanor]

None that you can see or as obviously you are not willing to see with His help.

For anyone else reading this;

The pre great tribulation rapture event IS when God will judge His house first ( 1 Peter 4:17 & 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 ) for why He is warning believers to be ready for the Bridegroom to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven or else. Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 12:40-49

Professing believers left behind ate still saved but not found abiding in Him because of iniquity on that foundation ( Titus 1:16 ) OR/AND they were unwilling to go because they loved their treasures note verses Luke 17:31-33 or loved their lives on earth so as to not want to leave. Luke 21:33-36 & Luke 17:26-37

Except for Jesus' teaching only one judgment, at the end of time, of both the sheep and the goats; i.e., all mankind (Mt 25:31-33).

I note that you do not deal with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) in post #89.

 

[ChristB4us]

Except for Jesus' teaching only one judgment, at the end of time, of both the sheep and the goats; i.e., all mankind (Mt 25:31-33).

I note that you do not deal with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) in post #89.

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Anybody can apply that to their selective reading from scripture as applied teachings as if from Christ; like the RCC could use that for applying the words of Christ in John 6:30- onward as talking about communion when in fact, he was talking about salvation in how we are saved by coming to & believing in Jesus Christ, the bread of life that was sent down from Heaven to give life to the world. The RCC can apply Luke 10:16 as if you do not believe Jesus was talking about communion in John 6:30- onward, then you are despising Him, but they would be wrong on both counts.

Matthew 25:31-46 should be applied to the Great White Throne Judgment because of verse 41.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Only the Lord can show you your error that it does not involve the firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event nor the resurrection of those that were not resurrected at the rapture event along with those living professing believers that were left behind for not abiding in Him as His words and or valuing this life or the treasures within that they did not want to leave it to join Him in Heaven above for why they shall be resurrected after the great tribulation.

So the question remains; how will the generations following those resurrected after the great tribulation will be judged? I suspect that is what Matthew 25:31-46 is about. Granted, the rest of the dead will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment and maybe they are to be judged in that same way too.

We prophesy in part and know in part, but I know I am hoping in Him to be my Good Shepherd & Friend to help me to follow Him so that come rapture or death, He will receive me as a vessel unto honor in His House, wearing the crowns on my head that He has achieved in me.

.

 

[Wordsmith]

You would be hard pressed to explain what the Book of Revelation is all about as you need to look no further ahead for the truth from ignorant church fathers later on in church history.

The Book of Revelation nowhere describes a pre-trib rapture of the church.

As for your assessment of many of the early church father being ignorant is that because they disagree with you?

Who needs church fathers when you have Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd to give you wisdom in seeing the truth in His words?

AS I stated in another post which you ignored the church as a whole on a world wide scale has more believers in the post trib position than the do the pre-trib camp.

Put that fact aside and let's talk about your continual referring to your view that people who do not agree with you need to seek wisdom from Christ so they will see things as you do.

It has been my experience on Christian debate forums that is an oft used tactic to shut down debate when one cannot actually deal with the scriptural arguments set before them.

I have no doubt you are passionate about your beliefs but setting your self up as one who is right because you have a personal Revelation from the Lord that most of the church is wrong on this issue does nothing to convince those that have come to a doctrinal position through much prayerful study of the scriptures.

Truth here is that all who are born again have the same Holy Spirit within but we are all humans with flaws and it is obvious that we do not all agree ,so to tell your brothers and sisters they need to listen to the Lord might just border on the side of arrogance.

 

[Wordsmith]

So what do you do with Him as the coming of the Bridegroom coming to receive His abiding bride of Christ to their mansions above as prophesied by Him in John 14:1-3 & Matthew 25:1-13?

Let's look at the verses you mention. ​

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Where in scripture do we find mention of these mansions again?

With the same wording nowhere.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where will Jesus be when He comes again? Answer: Right here on this earth.
Where will Jesus receive us when He comes? Answer in the clouds right here on this earth.
Where does Jesus go when He receives us in the clouds? Answer: He sets up shop right here on this earth.
Where do we rule and reign with Him? Answer: Right here on this earth.

What this passage does not say but is assumed by many.

It does not say we spend eternity in heaven where Christ is now at this present time.
This passage says He is preparing a place for us but it does not say we go there to enjoy it for eternity. Jesus does bring the New Jerusalem down from heaven to the new earth. Revelation 21

It appears to me that many mistakenly think when Christ returns we all go to heaven to live in mansions there.

My question to you is we have many passages that tell us Christ will return but where is even one passages that says we return to heaven with Him when He comes?

Answer there is not one. Many assume that to be true but what do you do with the fact there is not one such scripture?

As to Matthew 25:1-13 What do you do with it. I see no return to heaven to live in mansions for eternity.

I see a teaching exerting us to be ready when He comes but no mention of a return trip to heaven. If you see that in this passage please point it out. Be carful not to assume what you have been taught is there when it is not.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When He come where is He?

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Where are the nation He gathers when He comes?

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Where does Christ set up His kingdom when He returns?

You sure ask me a lot of questions. I think is about time you answer a few.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

What do you do with the above passage? I appears to me His kingdom is not eternity in heaven.

To be continued

 

[Wordsmith]

Why is Jesus warning believers to be ready in a time not descriptive of the end of the great tribulation where the saints cannot be ensnared by the cares of this life that they would not want to leave? Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36

I see those passage s as describing excuses that people make for not coming to the Lord. We are told that all that live Godly will suffer persecutions and we are also. warned of tribulations to befall believers.
Then we have these passages:
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

If we are truly the last generation we can escape what is coming but it may cost our heads.

It is clear there will be no gathering of the saints before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

What do you do with this passage. You can avoid dealing with it in this discussion be it will still be in your Bible when you are done here.

How do you deal with Revelation 19:1-10 that testify to that Marriage Supper in Heaven BEFORE it opens for Him in Revelation 19:11 to be riding back with those pre great tribulation raptured saints to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem which Zechariah 14:1-5 confirms?

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

You said "the Marriage supper in heaven" please point out where in the above passage it says that or is it that you just assumed that to be true.

Matthew 26:29
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Do you envision Jesus not participating in the marriage supper if it is held in heaven before :

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So if you wish to avoid the scriptures to this topic because you do not want to divide the coming of the Lord, thus your mind is made up, I understand.

I do not avoid any scriptures but I do try to avoid inserting things in them that are not there.

It is really on the Lord to lead you to read those scriptures and see the truth in His words for why He is warning believers to be ready to leave or else be left behind.

I truly hope you are not taking the common pre-rib view of the left behind passages Luke 17. If so we really need to discuss those.

If you ever do, credit Him for it & give Him the glory, because I was done coming here, seeing how nobody was hearing His words and therefore will not hear my words.

I appreciate your passion but to accuse those who disagree with you of not hearing His words is a bit above your pay grade.

I am 69 years old, I was born agin in 1980 and started my Christians life believing in the pre-trib rapture just as you do. But when I started studying this topic without the help of the Hal Lindsey's of the church world I came to different conclusion based only on the scriptures. My friend it is just not there without doing doctrinal surgery on many passages.

The scriptures are not trying to confuse us.

The Bible is clear on the need for and the way to be Born again
The Bible is clear on the gifts of the Spirit and their function in the church. ( I have been healed through those gifts)
the Bible is clear Jesus will return a second time.

But there is no clear pre-trib rapture anywhere in scripture. It is a concoction of man. Arrived at through assumptions and in some cases just a complete manipulation of the scriptures.

May God bless you.

I truly pray God blesses you as well.

 

[ChristB4us]

The Book of Revelation nowhere describes a pre-trib rapture of the church.

Prove to me that you are actually reading it.

Revelation 2:18-25 KJV

What is the consequence for this church if they do not repent?

Revelation 3:7-11 KJV

What is the reward for this church if they hold fast?

 

[ChristB4us]

Let's look at the verses you mention.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Where in scripture do we find mention of these mansions again?

We find it as a warning regarding the loss of said part in that holy city if anyone take a word out of the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Their names are still in it, but their eternal inheritance is taken out of that holy city hence left behind, to be resurrected after the great tribulation to serve the king of kings on earth from their respective places from all over the world in serving the Holy City on earth; hence not living in it, but are allowed to visit it and the tree of life.

 

[ChristB4us]

I see those passage s as describing excuses that people make for not coming to the Lord.

Luke 14:15-24 is about those invited ( the saved believers ) in making excuses in favor for the cares of this life on earth, not to come to the King's Supper held in Heaven as per Revelation 19:1-10.

That is why Jesus is warning believers in Luke 21:33-36 to pray that they be overcharged for the cares of this life that they are ensnared to not escape what is coming on the earth after the pre great tribulation rapture event when a third of the earth ( the western hemisphere including USA ) will get burned up to set the stage for the coming New World Order & the mark of the beast system for the rest of the world.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.