Does the Lord take us to heaven and we reign with Him

[ChristB4us]

I do not accept your characterization that mine are negative points. Below are points from Scripture I would call positive points.

If I were to say (which I am Not) with the Lords help you could see I am right and you are wrong, would accept that ? I think not ! I ask you once to refrain from that tactic but so be it if you thinks that helps in our conversation. I assure you it does not.

The problem is that you are allowing your "corrected" teaching to disregard the intent of the messages in the scripture.

Is Jesus warning the 7 churches to repent or else in Revelation 2nd and 3rd chapters?

Did Jesus warn the church at Thyatira to repent or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation or not in Revelation 2:18-25?

Did Jesus promised the church at Philadelphia to hold fast to not let any man take their crown so they will be kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in Revelation 3:7-11?

If so, what is the point of it if THERE IS NO REWARD since they are all going to be in that great tribulation that is coming anyway?

According to your view, Jesus is speaking to the 7 churches as if His words are null and void in the Book of Revelation.

 

[Wordsmith]

The problem is that you are allowing your "corrected" teaching to disregard the intent of the messages in the scripture.

I am allowing scripture to interpret scripture not adding to the text nor ignoring context.

Is Jesus warning the 7 churches to repent or else in Revelation 2nd and 3rd chapters?

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Twice to this church Jesus mentions tribulation but it is not the great tribulation of the last days!

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Did Jesus warn the church at Thyatira to repent or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation or not in Revelation 2:18-25?

No ! Context matters.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

That woman Jezebel and them that commit adultery was the recipient of "great tribulation" not the Great Tribulation of the last days. That is what the context of the text says. You have inserted you own interpretation.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Did Jesus promised the church at Philadelphia to hold fast to not let any man take their crown so they will be kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in Revelation 3:7-11?

Yes, but what the text does not say is that the church will be removed from the earth to accomplish that!

You have allowed your teaching to insert things that are not there.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

If so, what is the point of it if THERE IS NO REWARD since they are all going to be in that great tribulation that is coming anyway?

There are rewards, scripture is clear. I have repeatedly told you that scripture says the saints will face persecution but not the wrath of God but you fail to address that.

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

A lot happen in this verse. 1. His wrath is come
2. The dead are Judged
3. Rewards are given
4. Those that destroy the earth are destroyed.
His rewards are given when He comes again, notice the rewards are the 3rd thing listed in Revelation 11:18
No return trip to heaven for the church in this passage, nor any other for that matter.

You in error assume God has to take us to heaven to avoid pouring wrath on us. Nothing could be further from the truth.

We can go through all of the seals, trumpets and vials to show that if you wish.

According to your view, Jesus is speaking to the 7 churches as if His words are null and void in the Book of Revelation.

No, His words are not null and void but you are inserting your doctrine into His words.

 

[ChristB4us]

I am allowing scripture to interpret scripture not adding to the text nor ignoring context.

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Twice to this church Jesus mentions tribulation but it is not the great tribulation of the last days!

This warning was to any of the churches in the latter days that we are living in now where they shall suffer ten days and then death to receive that crown of life. That precipitates the pre great tribulation rapture event for when they get that crown as opposed to not being faithful unto death where they would lose that crown and become castaways. Paul gives the same warning to believers in His day and to the now.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

This warning of losing your crown can also be seen as a result of not holding fast to the end and not just lose that promise of being kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth that was given to the church at Philadelphia in Revelation 3:7-11 KJV

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

No ! Context matters.

You might hear this, but whenever He says He that hath an ear..... this is a promise to those that did not heed the warning nor exhortation.

Revelation 2:1-7 KJV In verse 7 is a promise that is only for those resurrected after the great tribulation.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
But the firstfruits of the resurrection will not need to eat from the tree of life.
Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

That woman Jezebel and them that commit adultery was the recipient of "great tribulation" not the Great Tribulation of the last days. That is what the context of the text says. You have inserted you own interpretation.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Yes, but what the text does not say is that the church will be removed from the earth to accomplish that!

He said indirectly that if they repented before the Bridegroom comes, then they will not be cast into the bed of the great tribulation. That is the reward for repenting to avoid the consequence for not departing from that iniquity.

You have allowed your teaching to insert things that are not there.

By His grace & by His help, I see it there. No insertion required.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

There are rewards, scripture is clear. I have repeatedly told you that scripture says the saints will face persecution but not the wrath of God but you fail to address that.

How can they be facing persecution if they are kept from the hour of temptation that shall come on all the world which is about taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive ( which the consequence for taking the mark is the lake of fire )? If they are not in that hour of temptation that shall try ALL upon the earth, then this has nothing to do with persecution but not being on earth to be tempted as the world is tempted with the mark of the beast

No, His words are not null and void but you are inserting your doctrine into His words.

I believe you are missing the point why Jesus is warning 5 churches to repent & exhorting 2 churches to hold fast and that is to come to the Marriage Supper in Heaven. See that in the end as He also extends this invitations to sinners to come to Jesus Christ to believe in Him to be saved?

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Wordsmith]

This warning was to any of the churches in the latter days that we are living in now where they shall suffer ten days and then death to receive that crown of life.

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

John was told to write to the seven churches is Asia not 7 churches in the end times.

So if one ignores that fact they can make it say whatever they want.

That precipitates the pre great tribulation rapture event for when they get that crown as opposed to not being faithful unto death where they would lose that crown and become castaways. Paul gives the same warning to believers in His day and to the now.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

This warning of losing your crown can also be seen as a result of not holding fast to the end and not just lose that promise of being kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth that was given to the church at Philadelphia in Revelation 3:7-11 KJV

There is no pre-trib rapture anywhere in the passage.

Since the letters were written to 7 literal churches in Asia how doe the "hour of temptation" translate to "the great tribulation" ?

Spirtualizing the letters to the 7 churches can lead to multiple interpretations.

In any event the letters do not prove or even hint at a pre-trib rapture of the church.

 

[ChristB4us]

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

John was told to write to the seven churches is Asia not 7 churches in the end times.

So if one ignores that fact they can make it say whatever they want.

Yet the apostle John went on to explain what prompted him to write this prophetic book;

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

There is no pre-trib rapture anywhere in the passage.

None you can see or want to see, I cannot help you there.

Since the letters were written to 7 literal churches in Asia how doe the "hour of temptation" translate to "the great tribulation" ?

Spirtualizing the letters to the 7 churches can lead to multiple interpretations.

In any event the letters do not prove or even hint at a pre-trib rapture of the church.

So has the City of God, New Jerusalem, has come down yet from Heaven for God to dwell among men?

So do not take the Preterist's point of view on Revelation at all if you want to see the truth in His words.

 

[Wordsmith]

So do not take the Preterist's point of view on Revelation at all if you want to see the truth in His words.

I do not take the preterits view, but the Book of Revelation is what it says it is.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (Johns past ), and the things which are (Johns real time present), and the things which shall be hereafter; (Johns future)

The Book of Revelation deals with things from John's past, Johns present (when the Revelation was given to him) and John's future into our time.

I do not believe this Book was fulfilled in 70 AD!

 

[Wordsmith]

So has the City of God, New Jerusalem, has come down yet from Heaven for God to dwell among men?

No not yet! What does that have to do with our disagreement on the rapture question?

 

[Wordsmith]

None you can see or want to see, I cannot help you there.

I though I could see the same thing you think you can see until I saw it was not there.

There is no pre-trib rapture clearly stated anywhere in scripture. It is only by reading it into passages and making interpretive assumptions that anyone comes up with one. Many passage clearly say Jesus is returning and several say when but ZERO say He comes before the tribulation. If you can find one post it.

God is not trying to confuse us with scripture. His second coming is clearly stated there is no other coming that we have solve riddles to find.

 

[ChristB4us]

I do not take the preterits view, but the Book of Revelation is what it says it is.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (Johns past ), and the things which are (Johns real time present), and the things which shall be hereafter; (Johns future)

The Book of Revelation deals with things from John's past, Johns present (when the Revelation was given to him) and John's future into our time.

I do not believe this Book was fulfilled in 70 AD!

If you do not hold to the Preterist's point of view and that the Book of Revelation was not fulfilled in 70 A.D., then how can you say that the future is limited to John's time, if I read your comment correctly? I get that impression below.

"Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (Johns past ), and the things which are (Johns real time present), and the things which shall be hereafter; (Johns future)" ~~~end of your quote
And yet the next comment seems to impress upon me that it goes beyond John's future to our time.
"The Book of Revelation deals with things from John's past, Johns present (when the Revelation was given to him) and John's future into our time." ~~~ end of your quote

So clarity is still needed here for me to know how you are looking at Revelation. Thanks in advance.

 

[ChristB4us]

No not yet! What does that have to do with our disagreement on the rapture question?

AND

I though I could see the same thing you think you can see until I saw it was not there.

There is no pre-trib rapture clearly stated anywhere in scripture. It is only by reading it into passages and making interpretive assumptions that anyone comes up with one. Many passage clearly say Jesus is returning and several say when but ZERO say He comes before the tribulation. If you can find one post it.

God is not trying to confuse us with scripture. His second coming is clearly stated there is no other coming that we have solve riddles to find.

There is a pre great tribulation rapture event for how that city of God is inhabited before that city of Jerusalem comes down after the great tribulation.

Jesus is not meeting those saints in the air after the great tribulation when they get resurrected because He is already on earth having defeated the world's armies and Satan has just been placed in the pit for a thousand years BEFORE that resurrection was to take place.

And so there is a pre great tribulation rapture for when those found abiding in Him are taken to that Mariage Supper held in Heaven.

 

[Hobie]

I am allowing scripture to interpret scripture not adding to the text nor ignoring context.


Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Twice to this church Jesus mentions tribulation but it is not the great tribulation of the last days!

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

No ! Context matters.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

That woman Jezebel and them that commit adultery was the recipient of "great tribulation" not the Great Tribulation of the last days. That is what the context of the text says. You have inserted you own interpretation.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.



Yes, but what the text does not say is that the church will be removed from the earth to accomplish that!

You have allowed your teaching to insert things that are not there.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.



There are rewards, scripture is clear. I have repeatedly told you that scripture says the saints will face persecution but not the wrath of God but you fail to address that.

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

A lot happen in this verse. 1. His wrath is come
2. The dead are Judged
3. Rewards are given
4. Those that destroy the earth are destroyed.
His rewards are given when He comes again, notice the rewards are the 3rd thing listed in Revelation 11:18
No return trip to heaven for the church in this passage, nor any other for that matter.

You in error assume God has to take us to heaven to avoid pouring wrath on us. Nothing could be further from the truth.

We can go through all of the seals, trumpets and vials to show that if you wish.



No, His words are not null and void but you are inserting your doctrine into His words.

The tribulations have been with us since the Roman Empire and then the Roman church, but right before the Second Coming the power of God will manifest itself into a 'time such as never was' for a short duration or no one would survive..

 

[EarlyActs]

or do look around for a Christ that has come in the desert or in the Middle East and walks around on earth for a 1000 years? It used to be that all Christians believed that Christ would come to take them to heaven, but now it seems a false doctrine of having someone that claims to be Christ will appear and maybe go to Jerusalem and say the 'kingdom' is set up for the next 1000 years of the Millennium, and say everyone must come and 'worship him'.

So what is the truth on this from the word of God and why does it matter especially to Gods people. Whether one is pre-trib rapture, or mid-trib, or post-trib the question of the Millennium and what happens at it still has to be answered. What is the Millennium and where are Christ and the saints during the Millennium?

There are two possible answers for "Where are the saints and Christ during the Millennium?"

Christ is in heaven after having taken the saints to heaven at the rapture and second coming. So both Christ and the saints are in heaven for that time and the wicked are all dead, (with Satan and his angels confined to Earth and no one to tempt).

Or Christ and the saints are on Earth during that time and Christ holds the wicked that are there also under some restraints for 1000 years.

If the saints are not taken to heaven at the second coming, then it opens the door to a "world-wide fake" to happen where Satan presents a pre-emptive 'coming' to have everyone be shocked and surprised after that "staged" or Satan can simple come and go to Jerusalem and claim they are in 'glorified' bodies or state where sin no longer affects them.

So what does the Bible say of the true coming of Christ. It was Christ Himself that warned that false Messiahs or false Christs would stake their claims prior to the return of Jesus:

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew. 24:24

Numerous additional signs of the imminent return of Christ are given in the Scriptures which testify that the time is near. These include:

An increase in knowledge - Daniel 12:4

An increase in demonic activity (Spiritulism, Satanism, etc..)- Rev 16:13,14, 1 Timothy 4:1-7

An increase in lawlessness - 2 Timothy 3:1-7

Departure from the faith - 2 Timothy 4:3,4

Rise of False teachings (evolution) - 2 Peter 3:3-7

Increase in traffic (modern transport) - Nahum 2:4

Of all these signs, the one with the greatest finality is:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14

We are admonished to study the signs and to pay attention. (Matthew 24:32-35) However, we are not to conclude that we can discern the day or the hour of His coming from these events. (Matthew 24:36). Moreover, if we study the nature of the coming of Christ and the purpose of His coming, then no one need be deceived. Yet, strange as it may seem, not a single mainline Christian church teaches the Biblical coming of Christ today. Most churches, if they preach about the second coming at all, preach a coming of Christ that will bring peace to the nations and wander about the earth that is no different especially when it comes to sin, but the Bible teaches a destruction of nations who mourn at His coming. Let us carefully examine the evidence we are given of how Christ will return:

And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, 'Ye men of Galilee; why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven'.Acts 1:9-l l.

In the Clouds Together With His Angels:

Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds. The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him as can be seen in Hebrew parallelism.

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels; the Lord is among them, as is Sinai, in the holy place. Psalm 68:17

...who maketh the clouds his chariots; who walketh upon the wings of the wind. Psalm 104:3

Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Matthew 24:30

...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7

When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.Matthew 25:31

The glory of Christ's coming surpasses anything we can imagine. He will return in the glory of His angels, and that of the Godhead:

...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

The Second Coming Will be Universally Visible:

Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him... Revelation 1:7

Christ warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Matthew 24:26,27

...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

The Second Coming Will be Audible:

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16

The Lord Will Not Come Down to the Earth, But Will Await the Redeemed in the Sky:

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

The Saints will be gathered together by angels and taken up into the air to meet the Lord in the sky. This is not a secret rapture as some believe.

And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31

At the second coming, Christ calls forth the dead and sends forth His angels to gather the elect, and together they meet Him in the air. Christ Himself does not come down to the earth - His feet do not touch the earth. His command to His angels is:

Gather my saints together unto me, those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.Psalm 50:5

So if we study and see what scripture tells us about Christs Second Coming, and understand how and what will occur, Satan will not be able to fool us not matter what he tries, and we will be prepared for Christ.

At the beginning of this lecture, you were trying to fit things around a millennium. NT eschatology is not like that. The final day of worldwide judgement , delayed by the compassion of God, is quick and results in the destruction of this world as quick as the making of the NHNE.

 

[EarlyActs]

or do look around for a Christ that has come in the desert or in the Middle East and walks around on earth for a 1000 years? It used to be that all Christians believed that Christ would come to take them to heaven, but now it seems a false doctrine of having someone that claims to be Christ will appear and maybe go to Jerusalem and say the 'kingdom' is set up for the next 1000 years of the Millennium, and say everyone must come and 'worship him'.

So what is the truth on this from the word of God and why does it matter especially to Gods people. Whether one is pre-trib rapture, or mid-trib, or post-trib the question of the Millennium and what happens at it still has to be answered. What is the Millennium and where are Christ and the saints during the Millennium?

There are two possible answers for "Where are the saints and Christ during the Millennium?"

Christ is in heaven after having taken the saints to heaven at the rapture and second coming. So both Christ and the saints are in heaven for that time and the wicked are all dead, (with Satan and his angels confined to Earth and no one to tempt).

Or Christ and the saints are on Earth during that time and Christ holds the wicked that are there also under some restraints for 1000 years.

If the saints are not taken to heaven at the second coming, then it opens the door to a "world-wide fake" to happen where Satan presents a pre-emptive 'coming' to have everyone be shocked and surprised after that "staged" or Satan can simple come and go to Jerusalem and claim they are in 'glorified' bodies or state where sin no longer affects them.

So what does the Bible say of the true coming of Christ. It was Christ Himself that warned that false Messiahs or false Christs would stake their claims prior to the return of Jesus:

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew. 24:24

Numerous additional signs of the imminent return of Christ are given in the Scriptures which testify that the time is near. These include:

An increase in knowledge - Daniel 12:4

An increase in demonic activity (Spiritulism, Satanism, etc..)- Rev 16:13,14, 1 Timothy 4:1-7

An increase in lawlessness - 2 Timothy 3:1-7

Departure from the faith - 2 Timothy 4:3,4

Rise of False teachings (evolution) - 2 Peter 3:3-7

Increase in traffic (modern transport) - Nahum 2:4

Of all these signs, the one with the greatest finality is:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14

We are admonished to study the signs and to pay attention. (Matthew 24:32-35) However, we are not to conclude that we can discern the day or the hour of His coming from these events. (Matthew 24:36). Moreover, if we study the nature of the coming of Christ and the purpose of His coming, then no one need be deceived. Yet, strange as it may seem, not a single mainline Christian church teaches the Biblical coming of Christ today. Most churches, if they preach about the second coming at all, preach a coming of Christ that will bring peace to the nations and wander about the earth that is no different especially when it comes to sin, but the Bible teaches a destruction of nations who mourn at His coming. Let us carefully examine the evidence we are given of how Christ will return:

And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, 'Ye men of Galilee; why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven'.Acts 1:9-l l.

In the Clouds Together With His Angels:

Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds. The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him as can be seen in Hebrew parallelism.

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels; the Lord is among them, as is Sinai, in the holy place. Psalm 68:17

...who maketh the clouds his chariots; who walketh upon the wings of the wind. Psalm 104:3

Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Matthew 24:30

...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7

When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.Matthew 25:31

The glory of Christ's coming surpasses anything we can imagine. He will return in the glory of His angels, and that of the Godhead:

...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

The Second Coming Will be Universally Visible:

Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him... Revelation 1:7

Christ warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Matthew 24:26,27

...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

The Second Coming Will be Audible:

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16

The Lord Will Not Come Down to the Earth, But Will Await the Redeemed in the Sky:

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

The Saints will be gathered together by angels and taken up into the air to meet the Lord in the sky. This is not a secret rapture as some believe.

And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31

At the second coming, Christ calls forth the dead and sends forth His angels to gather the elect, and together they meet Him in the air. Christ Himself does not come down to the earth - His feet do not touch the earth. His command to His angels is:

Gather my saints together unto me, those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.Psalm 50:5

So if we study and see what scripture tells us about Christs Second Coming, and understand how and what will occur, Satan will not be able to fool us not matter what he tries, and we will be prepared for Christ.

When he gathers, this world is judged and the NHNE appear in place of the current one. This earth may even become the place called the lake of fire. I don’t know any scenario where these can take place this quick and allow time for a 1000 years. Which I don’t find mentioned in any normal non-symbolic passage regarding the final day.

 

[EarlyActs]

This fact does not prove what you claim. If you only look at differences in all of the coming of the Lord passages we could have multiple comings. Just because one detail is mentioned in one coming passage and left out of another does not mean they are not talking about the same thing. Christ is only returning one time in our future .

To the OP's point ,no we do not return to heaven for 7 or 3 1/2 years. When Christ comes He sets up His kingdom and we rule and reign with Him right here on this earth and in the new earth.

I know there are a lot of assumptions about scriptures and what the say or mean but I challenge anyone to produce a scripture that clearly states raptured and or resurrected saints return to heaven for any period of time!

There is no pre-trib rapture of the saints. Before everyone piles on in. disagreement come with your scripture that's clearly says we go back to heaven.

If you disagree when I say we do not go to heaven for eternity show me where Christ or even the Father are in the current heaven for eternity.

Read Revelation chapter 21

I do not find any normal non-symbolic passages in the letters that have time for a 1000 years. The NHNE is next for believers, the place of torment for those who refused Christ.