God disagrees with you, for Revelation is prophecy, which he said he gives in "dark sayings" (riddles, hidden meanings), and not clearly (Nu 12:1-8).
Does the Lord take us to heaven and we reign with Him
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Yes, we can find it if we have eyes that see as Gods Word says..
Revelation 7:13-14 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
We see here in Revelation, John asks the elders about these who are a standing at God’s throne. We see the answer in the verse,
“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation…”
The elder explains to John that these are those who have been redeemed from the persecution that is here on earth and has been going on from almost the start of the early church.
Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
And they will be with the Lamb, so clearly this is in heaven, with Christ.
Revelation 7:15-17
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
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There is no scripture which specifically states that time will cease to tick at Christ's return. Nor is there a scripture stating that Christ will return ONLY one time. These are common viewpoints, but they are not based on scripture stating this. The institutional church is not our authority. The scriptures are.
Have you considered that those in whites robes are not raptured / resurrected saints but only the souls of the Christians who have died throughout the church age.
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Upon death the soul of the Christian goes to be with the Lord in heaven, that is not a raptured / resurrected saint!
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:9 refers specifically to the souls of those martyred not to raptured / resurrected saints.
We cannot ASSUME souls under the alter or those in white robes have been raptured, / resurrected. Where in Revelation did an assumed rapture/resurrection take place?
Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
This scene at the 5th trumpet implies there are saints with a seal on earth.
Where is the scripture that says these are raptured , resurrected saints? I've given scripture to show what I claim, let's see yours!
If you take all coming of the Lord scriptures and divide them up by the differences in wording we could have multiple comings. That is not the case ,we can harmonize them and we have only one more coming of the Lord in our future, not three or four.
Dividing scriptures by focusing on details left out or added is the only way to come up with a pre-trib rapture. There is only one more coming of the Lord in our future. It is at the last trump not the last one before 7 more.
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I agree we are waiting on only one more resurrection at the coming of the Lord in our future. But there have already been two bodily resurrection events which took place back with "Christ the First-fruits" and the 144,000 First-fruits, Matthew 27:52-53 saints back in AD 33, as well as a second bodily resurrection back in AD 70 at Christ's second coming - the one which all the disciples were anticipating in their near future.
And I also agree that scripture does not teach a "pre-trib" rapture. I believe it teaches a rapture for only resurrected saints after the great tribulation of AD 66-70, which took place at Christ's second coming in AD 70. The "rapture" promise was for that first-century generation of saints - not us.
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Need to read your Bible as it is clear where the saints are going at the second coming, its not wandering around in the desert or some hidden place, its right in scripture...
2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 10:34
For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Colossians 1:5
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
1 Peter 1:4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Matthew 5:12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 6:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Luke 6:23
Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
We who are lying in the grave will be raised up and taken from the earth at the resurrection like Christ was raised up.
Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
And we will join the living taken up and join them..
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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Nor is there a scripture stating that God is triune.
Au contraire. . .
The NT allows no time for a third coming of Jesus in the following NT teaching, where all these events occur together:
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats; i.e., all mankind (Mt 25:31-33).
So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the necessary conclusion is:
resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)
The NT locks up the rapture, second coming and judgment of the sheep and the goats (all mankind) all together.
To locate any of them at any other time is to contradict the above NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, which overwhelmingly presents only one coming of Jesus at the end of time, and allows no time for any other event.
It is your third coming that is "not based on scripture stating this."
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You and I have touched on this same point before, and I agreed with you that these all were to happen together. But that was all in AD 70, and God was going to stage a third bodily resurrection and a judgment of sheep and goats in our future as well.
Look at it this way: God's plan of redemption is like a play in two acts, with an intermission in between. He staged a resurrection at His second coming to close out "Act 1" in AD 70. Since that time, humanity has been living in "Act 2" under the New Covenant conditions. God will conclude this "Act 2" with a third resurrection event at His bodily coming in our future. At that culmination point, He will purify this planet of all remnants of human evil from then on.
It's a lot like the way Christ presented the parable of the leaven in the bread dough as a picture of the progress of the kingdom of heaven. If you have ever made a decent loaf of bread from scratch, then you know that the bread dough is given TWO risings. The first rising leaves large, unsightly holes of air pockets that are not well distributed (rather like the OT when God revealed Himself to Israel and the fathers in limited locations, and the pagan nations were alienated from the knowledge of God as a general rule).
Then there is a "punch-down" of the bread dough when it is pounded flat and kneaded to develop elasticity of the dough (rather like the multiple persecutions taking place in the NT for the saints). To all appearances, the leaven has been destroyed. But no. This time, the second rising of leaven produces tiny air pockets that completely fill the dough evenly into every portion of it (just like the "stone" kingdom would grow and fill the whole world). At just the right moment of development of the entire loaf, the leavening process in that dough is halted by the baking process that yields the desired result of a perfect-sized and shaped loaf to enjoy.
ANd there is no apostolic teach
Completion of above post #30:
the moon not giving its light, the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken (Mt 24:29),
Jesus' coming down from heaven (1 Th 4:16), appearing in the sky,
all nations of the earth mourning as they see him on the clouds of the sky,
with power and great glory, sending his angels with a loud trumpet call (Mt 24:30-31),
and with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, the dead rise,
the risen elect along with the ones who are still alive at the resurrection are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air at the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), where
the angels gathered them from the four winds, from one end of heavens to the other (Mt 24:31). . .
having already occurred, is any of that racket, or those cosmic events, or earthly upheavals found in the historical record anywhere?
Your contra-apostolic argument is non-sensical and absurd.
And while all the dead of the earth were resurrected, and the elect were raptured in their glorified bodies,
what happened to the resurrected non-elect?
Your argument has no basis either in NT apostolic teaching nor the historical record.
It is all based on your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles ("dark sayings," hidden meanings) not spoken clearly (Nu 12:1-8), which are subject to more than one interpretation, and yours not in agreement with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, which neither presents nor allows for a second "second" coming.
And you have not addressed my questions regarding
the moon not giving its light, the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken (Mt 24:29),
Jesus' coming down from heaven (1 Th 4:16), appearing in the sky,
all nations of the earth mourning as they see him on the clouds of the sky,
with power and great glory, sending his angels with a loud trumpet call (Mt 24:30-31),
and with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, the dead rise,
the risen elect along with the ones who are still alive at the resurrection are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air at the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), where
the angels gathered them from the four winds, from one end of heavens to the other (Mt 24:31). . .
having already occurred, is any of that racket, or those cosmic events, or earthly upheavals found in the historical record anywhere?
Your contra-apostolic argument is non-sensical and absurd.
And while all the dead of the earth were resurrected, and the elect were raptured in their glorified bodies,
what happened to the resurrected non-elect?
Your argument has no basis either in NT apostolic teaching nor the historical record.
It is all based on your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles ("dark sayings," hidden meanings) not spoken clearly (Nu 12:1-8), which are subject to more than one interpretation, and yours not in agreement with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, which neither presents nor allows for a second "second" coming.
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Yes, evidence for them is in historical record.
When Matthew wrote about the "sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven", this was typical apocalyptic language from the OT describing the fall of a nation and its governance. It was also reflective of the symbolism in Joseph's dream where his own mother was compared to the moon, his father to the sun, and the stars to himself and his eleven brothers in Genesis 37:9-10. To have the condition of all these things being drastically affected in Matthew 24 was a depiction of the nation of Israel coming apart at the seams and being dissolved after those days of Great Tribulation for them.
The "powers of heaven being shaken" in Matthew 24 was a first-century event which God had "NOW" promised in Hebrews 12:26-27 that He was going to do. This "NOW" term applied to the time period Hebrews was written - not to us some 2,000 years down the road. These "powers of heaven" being shaken and removed was the alteration in the power structure of the angelic realm which God performed back then.
The "racket" which you presume would be heard by the living around the globe was a trumpet and voice of the archangel which the DEAD believers around the world would hear, calling them to life again in changed bodies rendered incorruptible and immortal. Do you not remember all the various times in scripture when one person would hear or see something supernatural happening but the person right next to them could not? Selective revelation for some and not others is not an "absurd" idea to scripture. Do you need for me to cite some examples of this?
Jesus returned to this planet to the Mount of Olives location in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day in the same glorified, resurrected body which had gone into heaven in Acts 1. "Every eye" of all the "tribes of the earth" who had pierced Christ (the tribes of the land of Israel) observed this return of Christ to the Mount of Olives from their position inside the besieged city of Jerusalem. They would be mourning that they were not participating in the bodily resurrection and transport to heaven at that time. This was NOT all the people around the entire globe that were simultaneous eye-witnesses of this event. Scripture never says that.
The fate of the wicked dead - back in AD 70 as well as in our future - is to PERISH, both body and soul. The souls of the resurrected wicked cannot stand in the judgment, (Psalms 1:4-5) because they are destroyed by it. The souls of the wicked are never re-united with their physical bodies, which are left forever to disintegrate in the dust of the grave.
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Annihilation of souls that go to hell seems to be a popular idea with some Christian people but which can simply be put to rest with the Bible saying that souls go to the lake of fire to be tormented forever and ever. It is not possible to torment something that ceases to exist.
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The "Lake of Fire" John defined as "the second death". It was the second time that the city of Jerusalem had died since the Babylonian invasion back in 586 BC. The rulers in Jerusalem had made a covenant back then with Death and Hell (the grave). God promised that this covenant with Death and Hell (the grave)would be annulled. These plagues would come to Jerusalem back then in Isaiah 28:15-19.
Death and Hell (the grave) were again cast into the Lake of Fire for Jerusalem's second death in the AD 66-70 era (Revelation 20:14), showing the tormenting conditions that existed for all those besieged within the city - every one of the unclean spirits included. This torment was "to the age of the ages", as John said.
Those "ends of the ages" had come to Paul's generation (1 Corinthians 10:11-13). God does not conduct eternal conscious torment throughout eternity. He DOES promise that those who do not have everlasting life will PERISH, both body and soul.
Bob Carabbio
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Actually, THREE possible answers. The only HONEST ONE is: "We don't know".
Marilyn C
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Actually we do know. God`s word says that we will be with the Lord on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) And that is in the highest, (Eph. 1: 21) in this age and the one to come.
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Greetings Marilyn C,
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Daniel 2:35,44–45 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Matthew 5:5 (KJV): Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus will sit upon the Temple Throne of David when he returns to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years.
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Daniel 2:35,44–45 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Matthew 5:5 (KJV): Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Kind regards
Trevor
I Have read my Bible been studying bit since 1980. You make a lot of assumptions with the scriptures you posted.
This does not say anyone is raptured to heaven. You only assume that to be the case. This in no way says saints will spend eternity in heaven where God now dwells.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
This does not say anyone is raptured to heaven , where God now dwells for eternity.
Philipians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
We are now citizens of heaven but not physically there. When we die our souls go the be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with theLord.
This does not say we will be raptured for eternity to heaven where God now dwells.
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Yes our hope is in heaven and and we are awaiting His return.
Nothing here says we are raptured to heaven where God now dwells.
Yes our reward is in heaven and Jesus will bring it with Him when He returns!
Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Nothing here says we are raptured to heaven where God now dwells.
Nothing here says we are raptured to heaven where God now dwells.
Nothing here says we are raptured to heaven where God now dwells.
Yes our reward is in heaven and Jesus will bring it with Him when He returns!
Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Amen!
Nothing here says we are raptured to heaven where God now dwells.
This is your commentary but the passage does not mention a return to heaven.
Where does it say Jesus comes and then returns to heaven? Did you forget to quote that part or is it just not there?
Yes we will ever be with the Lord ,but He sets up shop right here on this earth and the new earth to come.
Of course we meet the Lord in the clouds (air) but there is no return trip mentioned here you only assume it to be true.
I started my Christian life believing in a pre-trib rapture because that is what I was told, but I did take your advice years ago and read my Bible. It is nowhere to be found the the pages of scripture. That doctrine is an invention of man.
Absolutely, but that will not be in heaven where God now dwells! Read Revelation 21.
