Does the Lord take us to heaven and we reign with Him

[3 Resurrections]

I don't know how you can miss what the passage is saying about the entire earth. (I'm aware of the limited meaning in some cases, but we are talking about the 'elements' of Stoicism here, which have a way of acting like the Torah, Gal 4:8,9).

Then there is the problem of Rom 2; first for the Jew then for the Greek. Where's the massive burning of the earth already?

Then there is the change of 'corporeality' in Rev 21, 22, when there is the NHNE. I don't see how this earth goes through; I Cor 7:31

The entire land of Israel was affected by the years of the Great Tribulation from AD 66-70. Vespasian pursued a "scorched-earth" policy in dealing with the rebellion which began in Israel, conquering and burning cities starting in the north of Israel, so that when the Roman army finally came to the main target of taking down Jerusalem, there would be no cities left which could bring an army against his back as his troops besieged Jerusalem. Revelation gives us many of the details of how that Great Tribulation period was going to take place. And Romans 2 is not a problem, because the gospel really was offered first to the Jews by Christ and the disciples (during the 70th week), and then spread to the "Greek" or Gentile nations of the world with the Apostle Paul leading that evangelistic emphasis.

I Corinthians 7:29 & 31 (written around AD 57) said "the time is short:" because "the fashion of this world is passing away" for those in that first century. The conditions of the NHNE were going to be established by the close of that generation. Hebrews 12:26 said that God had "NOW" promised at that time that He would shake, not just the earth, but heaven also, so that what could not be shaken would still remain afterwards. We aren't waiting for this shaking to happen for the NHNE to emerge in the future. It's already here, and has been since God in the AD 66-70 period burned up all the hand-made things related to the Old Covenant which ethnic Israel was still trying to cling to.

Those Old Covenant dead leftovers were the "weak and beggarly elements" which Paul was afraid his Galatians 4:9-10 readers would turn back to again - by putting themselves back into bondage of "observing days, and months, and times, and years" (under Judaism). There were many who wanted to cling to those physical things and the rituals which had made up their Old Covenant system, so God literally burned up all those works in the earth to ashes. This made an emphatic display of His intentions to manifest that the New Covenant had taken over instead, with its spiritual temple not made with hands.

 

[EarlyActs]

The entire land of Israel was affected by the years of the Great Tribulation from AD 66-70. Vespasian pursued a "scorched-earth" policy in dealing with the rebellion which began in Israel, conquering and burning cities starting in the north of Israel, so that when the Roman army finally came to the main target of taking down Jerusalem, there would be no cities left which could bring an army against his back as his troops besieged Jerusalem. Revelation gives us many of the details of how that Great Tribulation period was going to take place. And Romans 2 is not a problem, because the gospel really was offered first to the Jews by Christ and the disciples (during the 70th week), and then spread to the "Greek" or Gentile nations of the world with the Apostle Paul leading that evangelistic emphasis.

I Corinthians 7:29 & 31 (written around AD 57) said "the time is short:" because "the fashion of this world is passing away" for those in that first century. The conditions of the NHNE were going to be established by the close of that generation. Hebrews 12:26 said that God had "NOW" promised at that time that He would shake, not just the earth, but heaven also, so that what could not be shaken would still remain afterwards. We aren't waiting for this shaking to happen for the NHNE to emerge in the future. It's already here, and has been since God in the AD 66-70 period burned up all the hand-made things related to the Old Covenant which ethnic Israel was still trying to cling to.

Those Old Covenant dead leftovers were the "weak and beggarly elements" which Paul was afraid his Galatians 4:9-10 readers would turn back to again - by putting themselves back into bondage of "observing days, and months, and times, and years" (under Judaism). There were many who wanted to cling to those physical things and the rituals which had made up their Old Covenant system, so God literally burned up all those works in the earth to ashes. This made an emphatic display of His intentions to manifest that the New Covenant had taken over instead, with its spiritual temple not made with hands.

Among the simple mistakes here:
Rom 2 is not about equal access to the Gospel. It is about the total destruction of the world intended after 70. You are going with sound bytes, not context.

The elements in Peter are about geologic things; the terms used are pottery. The Genesis flood affected all the earth; so will the destruction. You are following sound-bytes, not context.

You really don't get the significance of 1 Cor 7's. What has changed about marriage or business or 'the things of this world' since 70? You keep going to the Judaic when the Judaic is NOT meant, because other passages are about the Judaic. You follow sound-bytes around instead of the actual established context.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Among the simple mistakes here:
Rom 2 is not about equal access to the Gospel. It is about the total destruction of the world intended after 70. You are going with sound bytes, not context.

Romans 2 does include a message about equal access to the gospel. There is an equality of believers expressed in "For there is no respect of persons with God" (Rom. 2:11), and in the statement "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly..." (Rom. 2:28). The gospel was first offered to the Jews by Christ and the disciples ("I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel..."). That quickly branched out to include the Gentile nations, with Paul as the main herald of the gospel to the nations. And there is nothing written in Romans 2 about "total destruction of the world after 70" AD. The judgment of God against those who do evil is mentioned, but not an utter destruction of the globe being incinerated.

The elements in Peter are about geologic things; the terms used are pottery. The Genesis flood affected all the earth; so will the destruction. You are following sound-bytes, not context.

I have written several times that there would be global effects of the period surrounding the Great Tribulation (which Great Tribulation the Jews primarily would experience in Judea and Jerusalem from AD 66-70). John wrote as much in Revelation 3:10, when God promised that He would keep the faithful in the Philadelphian church from the time of testing that was "about to come upon the whole habitable world", in order to try those who dwelt on the earth. But having physical and spiritual global effects of testing from this period does not equate to the entire planet being utterly destroyed physically. That would carry the meaning of the language beyond what is stated, and would contradict scripture that says "the earth abideth forever".

You really don't get the significance of 1 Cor 7's. What has changed about marriage or business or 'the things of this world' since 70? You keep going to the Judaic when the Judaic is NOT meant, because other passages are about the Judaic. You follow sound-bytes around instead of the actual established context.

The context of 1 Corinthians 7 (written around AD 57) was directed to a church that had many carnal issues and was then under a time of "present distress" (1 Cor. 7:26). This was the period of time surrounding the AD 57 Ephesian riot, which jumpstarted a great persecution of the believers in Asia (2 Cor. 1:8), and would spread outward from that capital city of Asia. In addition, the heavy persecution of believers by Nero after the AD 64 fire at Rome, blamed on the Christians, was also on the near horizon. The AD 66 beginning of the Great Tribulation period in Judea would come after that, and the AD 70 bodily resurrection for the believers at Christ's return.

This is why Paul said "the time is short..." in 1 Cor. 7:29. For the tumult during the time of "present distress" in that approximate AD 57 year, as well as the coming disasters following soon after that, Paul recommended that taking a wife might be better to put off for a while, to avoid "trouble in the flesh" (1 Cor. 7:26-27). Weeping was not to be regarded, (because Christ would soon "wipe away all tears from their eyes" in a bodily resurrection.) Rejoicing was also not to be regarded, (because of the much greater joy given in a bodily resurrected state of seeing Christ face to face). Those that bought anything of substance were not to depend on that (because property values and material riches would diminish in the many wars soon to come in that period, and wealth would only make them a target for theft, as well as becoming a meaningless possession in a bodily resurrection for the saints).

Paul wrote that the fashion of that world was then passing away (1 Cor. 7:31), as 1 John 2:17 also confirmed: "And the world is passing away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Little children, it is the last hour..." That "last hour" has not been lingering for over 2,000 years and counting. It came in that first-century generation, and before some of that generation whom Christ had directly spoken to had died (Matthew 16:27-28).

 

[EarlyActs]

Romans 2 does include a message about equal access to the gospel. There is an equality of believers expressed in "For there is no respect of persons with God" (Rom. 2:11), and in the statement "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly..." (Rom. 2:28). The gospel was first offered to the Jews by Christ and the disciples ("I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel..."). That quickly branched out to include the Gentile nations, with Paul as the main herald of the gospel to the nations. And there is nothing written in Romans 2 about "total destruction of the world after 70" AD. The judgment of God against those who do evil is mentioned, but not an utter destruction of the globe being incinerated.

I have written several times that there would be global effects of the period surrounding the Great Tribulation (which Great Tribulation the Jews primarily would experience in Judea and Jerusalem from AD 66-70). John wrote as much in Revelation 3:10, when God promised that He would keep the faithful in the Philadelphian church from the time of testing that was "about to come upon the whole habitable world", in order to try those who dwelt on the earth. But having physical and spiritual global effects of testing from this period does not equate to the entire planet being utterly destroyed physically. That would carry the meaning of the language beyond what is stated, and would contradict scripture that says "the earth abideth forever".

The context of 1 Corinthians 7 (written around AD 57) was directed to a church that had many carnal issues and was then under a time of "present distress" (1 Cor. 7:26). This was the period of time surrounding the AD 57 Ephesian riot, which jumpstarted a great persecution of the believers in Asia (2 Cor. 1:8), and would spread outward from that capital city of Asia. In addition, the heavy persecution of believers by Nero after the AD 64 fire at Rome, blamed on the Christians, was also on the near horizon. The AD 66 beginning of the Great Tribulation period in Judea would come after that, and the AD 70 bodily resurrection for the believers at Christ's return.

This is why Paul said "the time is short..." in 1 Cor. 7:29. For the tumult during the time of "present distress" in that approximate AD 57 year, as well as the coming disasters following soon after that, Paul recommended that taking a wife might be better to put off for a while, to avoid "trouble in the flesh" (1 Cor. 7:26-27). Weeping was not to be regarded, (because Christ would soon "wipe away all tears from their eyes" in a bodily resurrection.) Rejoicing was also not to be regarded, (because of the much greater joy given in a bodily resurrected state of seeing Christ face to face). Those that bought anything of substance were not to depend on that (because property values and material riches would diminish in the many wars soon to come in that period, and wealth would only make them a target for theft, as well as becoming a meaningless possession in a bodily resurrection for the saints).

Paul wrote that the fashion of that world was then passing away (1 Cor. 7:31), as 1 John 2:17 also confirmed: "And the world is passing away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Little children, it is the last hour..." That "last hour" has not been lingering for over 2,000 years and counting. It came in that first-century generation, and before some of that generation whom Christ had directly spoken to had died (Matthew 16:27-28).

Some of these are just silly. Others flip on Judea vs world issue, conveniently. Others just don't understand about things happening in Judea whether the rest were delayed or not. I suppose you think there have been no outrageous persecution of Christians since that period.

I don't know how you can miss the superlatives in Rom 2 about wrath on the nations. Look at what Judea went through and transfer that to the nations!

 

[3 Resurrections]

Some of these are just silly. Others flip on Judea vs world issue, conveniently. Others just don't understand about things happening in Judea whether the rest were delayed or not. I suppose you think there have been no outrageous persecution of Christians since that period.

But of course there have been persecution periods for Christians since the first century. That is a given, since "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution", regardless of the timeline of history.

However, that does not erase the severity of the first-century persecution episodes for the Christians which we have recorded in the NT, and the length of time some of them were predicted to last ("42 months" of war against the saints under the Sea Beast, "10 days" for Smyrna, "1260 days" for the early church after Stephen's martyrdom, etc.).

It is not me that is "conveniently flipping" on Judea versus the world being judged in the first century. Christ announced to Pilate that "he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." Christ's crucifixion was the ultimate crime of humanity, with that sin shared by both Jew and Gentile of that generation. The religious leaders of the Jews of that generation bore the greater share of that sin, but the Roman empire via Pilate the governor also shared a smaller part of the guilt for that crucifixion, which called for God to judge both in appropriate measure.

The Great Tribulation's "days of vengeance" in the nation of Judea during those AD 66-70 years was in retribution for the blood oath those "betrayers and murderers" had called down on their own heads when they delivered Christ to the Romans to be crucified ("His blood be on us and our children"). But the nation of Judea was not the only recipient of judgment in those days. Tribulation among the Gentile nations in those days, (even during that "beginning of sorrows" leading up to the Great Tribulation which started in AD 66) was in great part due to the Roman empire's participation in the crucifixion of Christ, and for the persecution launched against the believers in AD 64 by Nero, the head of the "Sea Beast" at that time.

 

[EarlyActs]

But of course there have been persecution periods for Christians since the first century. That is a given, since "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution", regardless of the timeline of history.

However, that does not erase the severity of the first-century persecution episodes for the Christians which we have recorded in the NT, and the length of time some of them were predicted to last ("42 months" of war against the saints under the Sea Beast, "10 days" for Smyrna, "1260 days" for the early church after Stephen's martyrdom, etc.).

It is not me that is "conveniently flipping" on Judea versus the world being judged in the first century. Christ announced to Pilate that "he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." Christ's crucifixion was the ultimate crime of humanity, with that sin shared by both Jew and Gentile of that generation. The religious leaders of the Jews of that generation bore the greater share of that sin, but the Roman empire via Pilate the governor also shared a smaller part of the guilt for that crucifixion, which called for God to judge both in appropriate measure.

The Great Tribulation's "days of vengeance" in the nation of Judea during those AD 66-70 years was in retribution for the blood oath those "betrayers and murderers" had called down on their own heads when they delivered Christ to the Romans to be crucified ("His blood be on us and our children"). But the nation of Judea was not the only recipient of judgment in those days. Tribulation among the Gentile nations in those days, (even during that "beginning of sorrows" leading up to the Great Tribulation which started in AD 66) was in great part due to the Roman empire's participation in the crucifixion of Christ, and for the persecution launched against the believers in AD 64 by Nero, the head of the "Sea Beast" at that time.

Tribulation among the nations? What event(s)? Where? Vesuvius and Pompey? Certainly symbolic and "well preserved." But not Rom 2. The famine? But Paul was doing well enough over in Europe to send money back to Jerusalem. That's not much of a tribulation among the nations.

You are trying to attach things that are not attached. Not outside of Judea.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Tribulation among the nations? What event(s)? Where?

Matthew 24 predicted for the "beginning of sorrows" period (even before the "Great Tribulation" had begun with Jerusalem surrounded by armies) that the disciples would hear of "wars and rumors of wars" (many of which are recorded for us concerning the first century events). The disciples would also experience "nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (also recorded for us from first century times). "Great earthquakes" would be in dives places as well as famines, pestilences, and great signs from heaven (all of which we also have recorded from first century times).

These times for "distress of the nations" mentioned in Luke 21:25-26, with men in the world (oikoumene) bewildered by the unusual tidal surges of the sea "roaring" around the AD 60's, we currently have archaeological evidence for. All of these "beginning of sorrows" were features of a very turbulent era for the nations of the known world at that time..."terrible even in peace", as Josephus described it.

 

[EarlyActs]

Matthew 24 predicted for the "beginning of sorrows" period (even before the "Great Tribulation" had begun with Jerusalem surrounded by armies) that the disciples would hear of "wars and rumors of wars" (many of which are recorded for us concerning the first century events). The disciples would also experience "nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (also recorded for us from first century times). "Great earthquakes" would be in dives places as well as famines, pestilences, and great signs from heaven (all of which we also have recorded from first century times).

These times for "distress of the nations" mentioned in Luke 21:25-26, with men in the world (oikoumene) bewildered by the unusual tidal surges of the sea "roaring" around the AD 60's, we currently have archaeological evidence for. All of these "beginning of sorrows" were features of a very turbulent era for the nations of the known world at that time..."terrible even in peace", as Josephus described it.

So Israel's zealots failed to take up the Gospel and people in Indonesia experienced the wrath of God?

 

[3 Resurrections]

So Israel's zealots failed to take up the Gospel and people in Indonesia experienced the wrath of God?

Care to rephrase that? I must be having a senior moment.

 

[EarlyActs]

Care to rephrase that? I must be having a senior moment.

I was re-expressing your cause and effect explanation. The zealots in Judea refused the apostle's mission, became freedom fighters for the Torah, ruined the country, and that caused people in remote places to experience tribulation. I can't follow your reasoning at all.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I was re-expressing your cause and effect explanation. The zealots in Judea refused the apostle's mission, became freedom fighters for the Torah, ruined the country, and that caused people in remote places to experience tribulation. I can't follow your reasoning at all.

You do realize, I hope, that for someone still trying to observe Judaism in those days, even if they were in a remote location from Judea in other nations, they were going to travel to Jerusalem for those three harvest feast celebrations of Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. When the Zealot army factions coming from Galilee of the Gentiles trod the city and the sanctuary underfoot for those 42 months between late AD 66 and early AD70, anyone still trying to observe Judaism who came to the city from outlying nations was affected by their abominable activity in the city and the temple.

This is why Christ gave a warning ahead of time, that when the disciples saw Jerusalem surrounded by those abominable armies, they were not to enter the city for any reason, and were to flee Judea with only the shirts on their backs, so to speak.

 

[EarlyActs]

You do realize, I hope, that for someone still trying to observe Judaism in those days, even if they were in a remote location from Judea in other nations, they were going to travel to Jerusalem for those three harvest feast celebrations of Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. When the Zealot army factions coming from Galilee of the Gentiles trod the city and the sanctuary underfoot for those 42 months between late AD 66 and early AD70, anyone still trying to observe Judaism who came to the city from outlying nations was affected by their abominable activity in the city and the temple.

This is why Christ gave a warning ahead of time, that when the disciples saw Jerusalem surrounded by those abominable armies, they were not to enter the city for any reason, and were to flee Judea with only the shirts on their backs, so to speak.

That says nothing about the worldwide wrath mentioned in MT 24B and Rom 2 about the nations. I'm not sure you are following the issue here. Maybe re-read a page back?

 

[3 Resurrections]

That says nothing about the worldwide wrath mentioned in MT 24B and Rom 2 about the nations. I'm not sure you are following the issue here.

I thought I had already listed scripture's mention of a time of testing and judgment that the world at large would experience. Namely, the imminent time of testing for the whole world in Revelation 3:10 mentioned by John, and the imminent judgment of the world mentioned by Paul on Mars Hill in Acts 17:31.

 

[ChristB4us]

This fact does not prove what you claim. If you only look at differences in all of the coming of the Lord passages we could have multiple comings. Just because one detail is mentioned in one coming passage and left out of another does not mean they are not talking about the same thing. Christ is only returning one time in our future .

To the OP's point ,no we do not return to heaven for 7 or 3 1/2 years. When Christ comes He sets up His kingdom and we rule and reign with Him right here on this earth and in the new earth.

I know there are a lot of assumptions about scriptures and what the say or mean but I challenge anyone to produce a scripture that clearly states raptured and or resurrected saints return to heaven for any period of time!

Revelation 19th Chapter KJV In verses 1-10, the Marriage Supper is held in Heaven. In verses 11-21 the Heaven is opened when He returns on a white horse with an army that can only be described as saints and not angels.

There is no pre-trib rapture of the saints. Before everyone piles on in. disagreement come with your scripture that's clearly says we go back to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If you disagree when I say we do not go to heaven for eternity show me where Christ or even the Father are in the current heaven for eternity.

Read Revelation chapter 21

The pre great tribulation rapture event is when God will judge His house first for why many believers not found abiding in Him Luke 12:40-49 or loving this world to not leave it ( Luke 14:15-35 ) will be left behind. Make no mistake; in Luke 17:26-35, The Lord warns those not to go back to his house to take something with them for they are to leave everything they treasure on earth behind )

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

So what is the price for staying behind as a believer? Death. What is the reward to leave everything behind? Life with God in Heaven.

Granted, He will return with the saints as the inhabitants of New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven like a bride hence the pre great tribulation raptured saints in Revelation 21, but that is the point of running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House as the crowns we shall receive are His crowning achievements on us as we are the work of His hands for why no flesh shall glory in His Presence but glory in the Lord.

Anyway, in Revelation 20 signifying the defeat of the world's armies at the end of revelation 19th chapter by having Satan in the pit for a thousand years, testifies that Jesus is on earth to have accomplished that and that is when those saints left behind and new believers after the rapture that got killed after the rapture, are resurrected BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment.

That resurrection after the great tribulation is to happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great White Throne Judgment. Although scripture signifies it as the "first resurrection", it is not the actual first resurrection when Revelation 20:5 explains the use of the term "first resurrection" as that particular resurrection is to happen 'first" before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on.

Only God can cause the increase as I know I cannot do it, but everything aligns as God will dwell on earth eventually for Revelation 21.

 

[Wordsmith]

Revelation 19th Chapter KJV In verses 1-10, the Marriage Supper is held in Heaven. In verses 11-21 the Heaven is opened when He returns on a white horse with an army that can only be described as saints and not angels.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The pre great tribulation rapture event is when God will judge His house first for why many believers not found abiding in Him Luke 12:40-49 or loving this world to not leave it ( Luke 14:15-35 ) will be left behind. Make no mistake; in Luke 17:26-35, The Lord warns those not to go back to his house to take something with them for they are to leave everything they treasure on earth behind )

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

So what is the price for staying behind as a believer? Death. What is the reward to leave everything behind? Life with God in Heaven.

Granted, He will return with the saints as the inhabitants of New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven like a bride hence the pre great tribulation raptured saints in Revelation 21, but that is the point of running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House as the crowns we shall receive are His crowning achievements on us as we are the work of His hands for why no flesh shall glory in His Presence but glory in the Lord.

Anyway, in Revelation 20 signifying the defeat of the world's armies at the end of revelation 19th chapter by having Satan in the pit for a thousand years, testifies that Jesus is on earth to have accomplished that and that is when those saints left behind and new believers after the rapture that got killed after the rapture, are resurrected BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment.

That resurrection after the great tribulation is to happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great White Throne Judgment. Although scripture signifies it as the "first resurrection", it is not the actual first resurrection when Revelation 20:5 explains the use of the term "first resurrection" as that particular resurrection is to happen 'first" before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on.

Only God can cause the increase as I know I cannot do it, but everything aligns as God will dwell on earth eventually for Revelation 21.

There is no pre-trib rapture event in scripture the passage below refutes it.

2 Thessalonians 2
​

1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I at one time believed in a pre-trib rapture but my study of the scripture led me out of it. It is only by inserting private interpretations on many passages that one can try to justify the false doctrine.

There are NO clear passages stating such and the scripture posted above clearly shows there is no pre-trib rapture.

 

[ChristB4us]

There is no pre-trib rapture event in scripture the passage below refutes it.​

​

2 Thessalonians 2​

​

1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I at one time believed in a pre-trib rapture but my study of the scripture led me out of it. It is only by inserting private interpretations on many passages that one can try to justify the false doctrine.

There are NO clear passages stating such and the scripture posted above clearly shows there is no pre-trib rapture.

The problem here is that you are not able to discern two events that Paul was writing about. It is liken to Paul knows what he is saying and those that read his epistles know he is referring to 2 events, but believers today has a hard time discerning that message in English.

Example;

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Note how those who deny the deity of Christ would take Jesus's prayer to the Father as being the only true God while ignoring the additional testimony of knowing the only true God by Jesus Christ also. Not to mention other scriptures testifying to His deity for which they would take verse 3 out of context for in error.

Getting back to that chapter; how can we know Paul was talking about 2 events? By the other scriptures, even another convoluted one in Matthew 24th chapter in regards to Jesus's speaking. How does one separate is by the knowledge of other scriptures.

Jesus is answering 3 questions put to Him by His disciples and He is not answering them in chronological order either.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The sign of His coming precedes the end of the world; that is two events which Jesus has to help you see. From verses 4-13 is Jesus describing the latter days we are living in now.

Then read this;

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Most believers apply that to what believers are doing as missionaries out in the world but no. This is to occur at the pre great tribulation rapture event as it will not be a secret rapture but unfortunately, only a few will be found abiding in Him & willing to go when He comes for why there will be dead saints left unburied in fallen Babylon USA in Revelation 18th chapter..

So link that to the 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in Revelation 14:6-13 as everyone will know the gospel, then the end comes where the calamity of one third of the earth gets burned up ( Revelation 8:7 ) along with USA, daughter of Babylon ( Revelation 18th chapter to Revelation 14:8 as the 2nd angel heralds its fall while after that, the third angel warns everyone of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast in order to buy & sell to survive in the coming New World Order which is the lake of fire.

That first angel at the rapture event is when the gospel is spread all over the world so no one has no excuse of not knowing the gospel before destruction comes on that third of the earth which USA will be gone. That calamity will set up the New World Order for why the 3rd angel will warn everyone of the consequence for taking the mark is the lake of fire and so they will not have an excuse there either; hence the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth.

If you read Revelation 14:1-5, it testifies of who makes up His personal choir that gets redeemed from the earth from the land of the living, the 144,000 honest virgin men. This does not mean they are the only ones raptured, but just testifying to who makes up His personal choir.

If that is not enough; consider Revelation 19:1-110 about the Marriage Supper in Heaven and then in verse 11, Heaven "opens" again for His returns with those saints that were raptured to do battles with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation.

Now the world's armies is defeated and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years, then those that were left behind as not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event as well as transformed from the land of the living, that die with new believers after the rapture, during the great tribulation, shall be resurrected after the great tribulation. When you compare Revelation 19:11-21 & Revelation 20:1-6, WITH Zechariah 14:1-5, this testifies that Jesus has touched down on earth ( the Mount of Olives ) to do battle and so when that resurrection takes place, Jesus is ON EARTH in meeting those resurrected after the great tribulation, and so not in the air.

Any questions? God be willing, I shall be around to answer them but that should be enough to digest that Paul was talking about 2 events which takes wisdom from the Lord to discern that in order to align that with other scriptures.

 

[Eleanor]

The problem here is that you are not able to discern two events that Paul was writing about.

Actually, the problem is you do not know NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), of which you are in contradiction with your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.

It is liken to Paul knows what he is saying and those that read his epistles know he is referring to 2 events, but believers today has a hard time discerning that message in English.
Example;
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee theonly true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Note how those who deny the deity of Christ would take Jesus's prayer to the Father as being the only true God while ignoring the additional testimony of knowing the only true God by Jesus Christ also. Not to mention other scriptures testifying to His deity for which they would take verse 3 out of context for in error.
Getting back to that chapter; how can we know Paul was talking about 2 events? By the other scriptures, even another convoluted one in Matthew 24th chapter in regards to Jesus's speaking. How does one separate is by the knowledge of other scriptures.
Jesus is answering 3 questions put to Him by His disciples and He is not answering them in chronological order either.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The sign of His coming precedes the end of the world; that is two events which Jesus has to help you see. From verses 4-13 is Jesus describing the latter days we are living in now.
Then read this;
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Most believers apply that to what believers are doing as missionaries out in the world but no. This is to occur at the pre great tribulation rapture event as it will not be a secret rapture but unfortunately, only a few will be found abiding in Him & willing to go when He comes for why there will be dead saints left unburied in fallen Babylon USA in Revelation 18th chapter..
So link that to the 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in Revelation 14:6-13 as everyone will know the gospel, then the end comes where the calamity of one third of the earth gets burned up ( Revelation 8:7 ) along with USA, daughter of Babylon ( Revelation 18th chapter to Revelation 14:8 as the 2nd angel heralds its fall while after that, the third angel warns everyone of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast in order to buy & sell to survive in the coming New World Order which is the lake of fire.
That first angel at the rapture event is when the gospel is spread all over the world so no one has no excuse of not knowing the gospel before destruction comes on that third of the earth which USA will be gone. That calamity will set up the New World Order for why the 3rd angel will warn everyone of the consequence for taking the mark is the lake of fire and so they will not have an excuse there either; hence the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth.
If you read Revelation 14:1-5, it testifies of who makes up His personal choir that gets redeemed from the earth from the land of the living, the 144,000 honest virgin men. This does not mean they are the only ones raptured, but just testifying to who makes up His personal choir.
If that is not enough; consider Revelation 19:1-110 about the Marriage Supper in Heaven and then in verse 11, Heaven "opens" again for His returns with those saints that were raptured to do battles with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation.

Now the world's armies is defeated and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years, then those that were left behind as not resurrected at the pre great tribulation rapture event as well as transformed from the land of the living, that die with new believers after the rapture, during the great tribulation, shall be resurrected after the great tribulation. When you compare Revelation 19:11-21 & Revelation 20:1-6, WITH Zechariah 14:1-5, this testifies that Jesus has touched down on earth ( the Mount of Olives ) to do battle and so

So there are two second comings and two resurrections.

And your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles is contrary to NT apostolic teaching of 1 Th 4:16-17, authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), where:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39),
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the necessary conclusion is:
the last day = the resurrection = the rapture = the second coming = the final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

NT apostolic teaching is one resurrection and one second coming in the last day,
the NT locking them up with the judgment of the sheep and the goats (all mankind),
therefore, all mankind must be present at that one resurrection.

To multiply any of them, or to locate any of them at any other time in one's own personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, is to set one's interpretation of riddles against the above NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

when that resurrection takes place, Jesus is ON EARTH in meeting those resurrected after the great tribulation, and so not in the air.

1) "the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God, the dead in Christ will rise and those still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
(1 Th 4:16-17)
Apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) being: there is only one second coming and only one resurrection, Jesus therefore is not on earth in meeting the resurrected and does meet the resurrected in the air.

Any questions? God be willing, I shall be around to answer them but that should be enough to digest that Paul was talking about 2 events which takes wisdom from the Lord to discern that in order to align that with other scriptures.

And the first order of God's wisdom is that Scripture does not contradict itself, that all interpretation of prophecy must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), which your above personal interpretation of riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) is not.

 

[ChristB4us]

Actually, the problem is you do not know NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), of which you are in contradiction with your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.

We know from earlier discussions that we are at an impasse and therefore cannot agree, because how you apply scripture is done by ignoring the truths in other scripture that testifies otherwise for which you dismiss as prophetic riddles for getting out of applying them for what Jesus had meant.

We will never agree unless the Lord intervenes. So far, He does not seem to be doing that on either of us.

 

[Eleanor]

We know from earlier discussions that we are at an impasse and therefore cannot agree, because how you apply scripture is done by ignoring the truths in other scripture that testifies otherwise for which you dismiss as prophetic riddles for getting out of applying them for what Jesus had meant.

We will never agree unless the Lord intervenes. So far, He does not seem to be doing that on either of us.

Prophetic" "riddles" (dark sayings) not spoken clearly" is God's description of prophecy (Nu 12:8), not mine.
Personal interpretation of those riddles is not authoritative to anyone, in addition to their disagreement with apostolic teaching which is authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

My way is following the rule of not contradicting NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).
That is the irresolvable impasse.

I am not expecting any intervention in favor of contradicting NT apostolic teaching, which Jesus said is authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), and which teaching your interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) does contradict, as demonstrated in post #77.

 

[ChristB4us]

Prophetic" "riddles" (dark sayings) not spoken clearly" is God's description of prophecy (Nu 12:8), not mine.

It is your misapplication of Numbers 12:8 is why this is yours.

Personal interpretation of those riddles is not authoritative to anyone, in addition to their disagreement with apostolic teaching which is authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

When how you apply scriptures does not line up with the majority of scriptures that testifies otherwise, it is mighty convenient how you pull that prophetic riddles out to play when it could easily be applied to that scripture of your insistence of what the last day means.

My way is following the rule of not contradicting NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).
That is the irresolvable impasse.

It is not contradicting in according to your point of view by saying all other scriptures that testify otherwise are dark saying or prophetic riddles.

I am not expecting any intervention in favor of contradicting NT apostolic teaching, which Jesus said is authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), and which teaching your interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) does contradict, as demonstrated in post #77.

The Book of Revelation was Jesus telling the apostle John to write so where and when do you recognize that authority?

And that is why most believers that are in error remain subverted to whatever mindset they have on the scripture which is not aligning with the truths in other scripture, because of their own understanding or by the church's teaching or by a favorite teacher/pastor.