Will we know others in heaven as we knew them on earth? Isaiah 65:17

[atpollard]

Remembrance of people can be the cause of love, but one can have his memories taken away and replaced with new thoughts that could be the cause of love.

Isn't that the ZOMBIE ELECT that Arminians accuse Irresistible Grace of creating? God will take away EVERYTHING of who you are and make you "Stepford Wife" happy ... pass the SOMA.

Spoiler

Soma is a fictional drug in Aldous Huxley's 1932 dystopian sci-fi novel Brave New World. In the novel, soma is an "opiate of the masses" that replaces religion and alcohol in a peaceful, but immoral, high-tech society far in the future. Soma, a narcotic tranquilizer in tablet and vapor form, is regularly taken by all members of society in order to produce feelings of euphoric happiness. Soma, however, is harmful or even deadly when taken in large amounts. In Brave New World, the mother of John the Savage died after consuming too much soma. Inspired by Huxley's trip to India in the mid-1920s, is based on the historical soma drink, used in Hindu rituals to induce a hallucinogenic state. Besides soma, Huxley also incorporated other ideas based on Indian culture into the book, such as the caste system used in the fictional society of the World-State.

The idea of soma has become well-known in popular culture, and it has been compared to later real-life drugs like Valium. The name has become representative of modern society's dependence on prescription drugs.

 

[atpollard]

Aside: I haven't seen you for a while.

Thanks. Yeah, Christian sites drive me nuts ... so I take long mental health breaks to watch "The Chosen" or "Robin Hood" (either Errol Flynn or the Disney Fox and Bear version)

 

[fastfredy0]

Isn't that the ZOMBIE ELECT that Arminians accuse Irresistible Grace of creating?

I've never heard the term before. Hmmm .... we all die and come back to life with a new body so that semi fits the ZOMBIE idea.

God will take away EVERYTHING of who you are and make you "Stepford Wife" happy ... pass the SOMA.

We definitely are going to be changed. He's going to take away the 'sin nature'. Might not be much of me left.

 

[fastfredy0]

Thanks. Yeah, Christian sites drive me nuts ... so I take long mental health brakes

... but we need your wisdom!!!

 

[atpollard]

I've never heard the term before. Hmmm .... we all die and come back to life with a new body so that semi fits the ZOMBIE idea.

They like the term ROBOTS.

"If we don't have LIBERTINE FREE WILL to control what God is allowed to do, then God is creating a bunch of mindless ROBOTS or PUPPETS (including the reprobates) ... and they could NEVER love a God like that!"

[Did that sound more familiar?]

 

[fastfredy0]

hey like the term ROBOTS.

Yes, I am familiar with that. My response is that Arminians see God as a robot in regards to salvation as God must respond to what arminians self determine.

 

[makesends]

atpollard said:
[Rev 6:9-11 NASB20]

applicable verse IMO ... seems they have some memory, at least for a while

There are several verses in Rev that imply time passage, even one mentioning "for about the space of half an hour". The problem is that the whole context seems very symbolic, so it is hard to know just what is meant. Furthermore, the Bible seems replete with anthropomorphisms, not only as they apply to God's person and attributes, but concerning things that otherwise are simply beyond our ken.

I know you weren't referring to the time passage question, but the notion of "memory". My point is that what we think of as memory may well be the knowledge of simply fact. I don't think God forgets, as we understand it. After all, all fact was "in his mind" from the beginning (yes, I know that is an anthropomorphism too --maybe it would be more accurate to say, all fact was his facts from the beginning). All that happened is swallowed up into the far more substantial reality of heaven, and none of it missing, I think.

 

[fastfredy0]

The problem is that the whole context seems very symbolic, so it is hard to know just what is meant. Furthermore, the Bible seems replete with anthropomorphisms, not only as they apply to God's person and attributes, but concerning things that otherwise are simply beyond our ken.

AMEN!!!
I wish revelation was more to the point. You have Jesus saying He speaks in parables so people won't understand which is counter-intuitive to the word 'revelation'. I was just reading Revelation. It is awe inspiring, but figuring out a time line and so many statement like "looked like a grasshopper and shot whatever from its tail" leave you wish more questions than you started out with.

I don't think God forgets, as we understand it.

Definitely, yet He uses anthropomorhisms that suggest He does. Because of the contradiction, we call it an anthropomorhism.

We better not say too much on the subject as we might be hit by lightning or get a talking to like Job when he asked too many questions.

 

[Lees]

Isaiah 65:17 “Behold, I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things [of life] will not be remembered or come to mind.

Given the verse above do you belief either:
1) We will not know, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven for "former things will not be remember or come to mind"

or

2) We will know people from our experience on earth, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven. Please give verses to substantiate this opinion (no parables).
Yes, I know of the transfiguration and Peter and Paul meet Moses and Elijah .... but their knowledge of these two people could not originate from earthly experience
and besides, Peter and Paul were not in the "new heaven".


If you select #1 then would it not also stand to reason we would not know anything about ourselves?

It is my opinion, and I have no specific verses to give other than my own understanding of God as given in the Bible, that it is inconceivable that we will not remember our former life on earth. To what purpose would that serve?

A quick glance in a concordance reveals how many times God uses the word 'remember' or 'remembrance'. Memory is equally part of God which is why we have it, created in His image.

If all we will know 'then' is our perfect and sinless and holy life with God and Christ, there was no need for this whole salvation plan of God. The whole history of man and God's salvation not remembered means it was not necessary. God could have destroyed Satan at the outset and our sin never would have occurred.

If we don't remember we were sinners, how is our salvation of any value, in our eyes? And worse, why does God keep the scars on Jesus body if not for remembrance.

I think if one studies (Is. 63-65) the horrors of God's jugements on the earth will be replaced by the blessings and conditions of the New Heaven and New Earth so that they will all but be forgotten.

Lees

 

[fastfredy0]

it is inconceivable that we will not remember our former life on earth. To what purpose would that serve?

Seems to me God says He's going to destroy the world and bring on a new one. This implies former things are of no value.
Romans 7:18, which states, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." This implies former things are of no value.

A quick glance in a concordance reveals how many times God uses the word 'remember' or 'remembrance'. Memory is equally part of God which is why we have it, created in His image.

God is holy. Remembrance of evil is probably not a good thing. Adam has the fruit and now had knowledge of good and evil which didn't work out so well. That incident also pretty much destroyed the idea that we are now in the image of God, especially since most people's father is the devil.

If all we will know 'then' is our perfect and sinless and holy life with God and Christ, there was no need for this whole salvation plan of God. The whole history of man and God's salvation not remembered means it was not necessary.

This doesn't follow. It is not necessary IMO to recall how terrible we were in order to make salvation necessary.

If we don't remember we were sinners, how is our salvation of any value, in our eyes? And worse, why does God keep the scars on Jesus body if not for remembrance.

interesting, though far from conclusive. God's ways are not our ways could be a response.


Well, we won't solve this. You put forth interesting thoughts. Thx

 

[makesends]

it is inconceivable that we will not remember our former life on earth. To what purpose would that serve?

Seems to me God says He's going to destroy the world and bring on a new one. This implies former things are of no value.
Romans 7:18, which states, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." This implies former things are of no value.

A quick glance in a concordance reveals how many times God uses the word 'remember' or 'remembrance'. Memory is equally part of God which is why we have it, created in His image.

God is holy. Remembrance of evil is probably not a good thing. Adam has the fruit and now had knowledge of good and evil which didn't work out so well. That incident also pretty much destroyed the idea that we are now in the image of God, especially since most people's father is the devil.

If all we will know 'then' is our perfect and sinless and holy life with God and Christ, there was no need for this whole salvation plan of God. The whole history of man and God's salvation not remembered means it was not necessary.

This doesn't follow. It is not necessary IMO to recall how terrible we were in order to make salvation necessary.

If we don't remember we were sinners, how is our salvation of any value, in our eyes? And worse, why does God keep the scars on Jesus body if not for remembrance.

interesting, though far from conclusive. God's ways are not our ways could be a response.


Well, we won't solve this. You put forth interesting thoughts. Thx

Both of you seem to me to present here, opposite ends of the temporal spectrum, in dealing with the non-temporal.

We do know that we will be changed, and we have the words, "the former things will be remembered no more", and there are many more such phrases. But we also know, for example, that a main theme, which will be a part of all themes in Heaven, is the temporal fact that Christ died for us. and that God's eternal word was written 'during' time. They really happened, just as our sins did, which "he will remember no more". He is not stupid, nor forgetful, but extreme, and our notions of "remember" and the value of the temporal are not, and cannot be, quite right.

There's a lot more fodder for either side to chew on. The truth is not halfway between, either, but is only "else", from our current concepts.

Makes me chuckle at the thought, that even if our 'scope' had the crosshairs firmly fixed on target and the rifle locked down so it cannot move, if the scope is sighted in wrong, the bullseye will always be missed. We are only shooting AT the truth. Like how I shoot at ducks: Boom! Boom! KaBoom! *Stands up in the boat and shakes his fist*, "And don't you EVER come back!"

 

[Lees]

Seems to me God says He's going to destroy the world and bring on a new one. This implies former things are of no value.
Romans 7:18, which states, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." This implies former things are of no value.




God is holy. Remembrance of evil is probably not a good thing. Adam has the fruit and now had knowledge of good and evil which didn't work out so well. That incident also pretty much destroyed the idea that we are now in the image of God, especially since most people's father is the devil.




This doesn't follow. It is not necessary IMO to recall how terrible we were in order to make salvation necessary.



interesting, though far from conclusive. God's ways are not our ways could be a response.


Well, we won't solve this. You put forth interesting thoughts. Thx

Quite welcome.

Lees

 

[Hazelelponi]

Isaiah 65:17 “Behold, I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things [of life] will not be remembered or come to mind.

Given the verse above do you belief either:
1) We will not know, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven for "former things will not be remember or come to mind"

or

2) We will know people from our experience on earth, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven. Please give verses to substantiate this opinion (no parables).
Yes, I know of the transfiguration and Peter and Paul meet Moses and Elijah .... but their knowledge of these two people could not originate from earthly experience
and besides, Peter and Paul were not in the "new heaven".


If you select #1 then would it not also stand to reason we would not know anything about ourselves?

I see the former things that won't be remembered is all the things of this earth will be completely finished - ended with added finality that's more than definite.

That doesn't mean we won't remember our lives, but we do appear to be promised we won't have the pain and scars of it anymore, we will be definitively healed in every way.

As far as recognizing one another we might recognize them by their spirit. I would love to talk to Paul someday, John too. I need to thank both.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The problem is that the whole context seems very symbolic,

That's because time itself is symbolic where there is no time.


"The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing." Zephaniah 3:17

 

[makesends]

That's because time itself is symbolic where there is no time.

Hmm. Well, that's an interesting perspective. I'd say the things of time are symbolic where there is no time, but time itself? —not sure.

"The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing." Zephaniah 3:17

Amen!

BTW, that will be the real thing, that the things of this life are only symbolic, or copies, of. Can you imagine God singing?!