Does the Lord take us to heaven and we reign with Him

[ChristB4us]

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions (Strongs 3438): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode (Strongs 3438) with him.

I believe the point I was making is that where Jesus is now which is in Heaven with the Father .. is where He is receiving them to.

Abode is the same Greek word as mansions.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 19:1-10 speaks to the Marriage Supper in Heaven as the result of the pre great tribulation rapture event from which the destruction of Babylon on earth in Revelation 18th chapter was what part of that celebration in Heaven was about, if you note.

And yet in Revelation 14:1-5 testify to from among those raptured were the 144,000 honest virgin men that is His personal choir that follows Him around in Heaven AND how the 3 angels in Revelation 14:6-11 sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining upon the earth as everyone will know the gospel by that 1st angel, and everyone will know Babylon USA has fallen by that 2nd angel, and everyone will know the consequence of taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell in the NWO which is the lake of fire by that 3rd angel so no one will be without excuse. so those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation after the pre great tribulation rapture event.

It is why Jesus is warning the 7 churches to be ready or else be disqualified and left behind.

 

[Wordsmith]

I can ask you to pray to Jesus to help you receive the truth just to make sure you are not missing anything important that He wants you to know because of a teaching you are adhering to whereby you just do not want to believe the pre great tribulation rapture is true.

As I have said before I did believe it and the scriptures themselves made it clear to me it was a false doctrine. Most of the church world today and throughout church history reject it.

Maybe it will be good for both of us to pray for wisdom on this matter.

This is not a matter of salvation but it is a matter of concern. Many of those who have the I'll be out of here when the antichrist is revealed may have a tough time reconciling what they have been taught and what is actually happening. The scripture below is what started me on the deeper study of this and eventually changed my mind.

​

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The coming of our Lord and our gathering. A catching up, rapture or whatever label you chose.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is the day of His return.

1. 1 Corinthians 1:8
   Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Philippians 1:6
   Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
   
   
3. Philippians 1:10
   That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
   
   
4. Philippians 2:16
   Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

The falling away is the apostasy not a pretrib rapture! Our gathering will not happen before the man of sin is revealed. This passage is clear.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

That day that shall not come is the day of His return in verse 1 &2.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This passage is clear! There is no pre-trib rapture to heaven of the saints. I challenge you to deal with the wording of this passage!

Scripture is clear unless we die before Christ's return we may live to see and face the antichrist!

 

[ChristB4us]

As I have said before I did believe it and the scriptures themselves made it clear to me it was a false doctrine. Most of the church world today and throughout church history reject it.

That is an assumption on your part.

Maybe it will be good for both of us to pray for wisdom on this matter.

I do trust the Lord Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd to correct me when or if I am teaching something that is not aligning with scriptures.

This is not a matter of salvation but it is a matter of concern.

I agree but I still maintain that the pre great tribulation rapture event is when God will judge His house first ( 1 Peter 4:17 ) as the Bridegroom to receive the abiding bride of Christ, leaving behind those saints found in unrepentant iniquity Matthew 25:1-13 or/and are "unwilling" to leave because they love this life more or are overcharged for the cares of this life to not want to leave ( Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36 ).

In other words, those unrepentant saints & former believers left behind are still saved BUT they will be weeping and gnashing their teeth over the loss of being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

to be continued...

 

[ChristB4us]

Many of those who have the I'll be out of here when the antichrist is revealed may have a tough time reconciling what they have been taught and what is actually happening. The scripture below is what started me on the deeper study of this and eventually changed my mind.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The coming of our Lord and our gathering. A catching up, rapture or whatever label you chose.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

You see one event whereas I see two events that Paul is talking about here. The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as the King of kings is one event, whereas He is not rapturing anyone but touching down on the Mount of Olives to do battle with the world's armies marching against Jerusalem. Our gathering unto Him is a separate event which is the pre great tribulation rapture event.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The first half of verse 3 is the sign of His gathering the abiding bride of Christ unto Him by that sign of the falling away from the faith. This is why God has to judge His House first, excommunicating those not abiding in Him from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

The second half of verse 3 pertains to what occurs halfway through the great tribulation as 3 and a half years after the rapture event.

Paul testified in that chapter that this iniquity that will cause the falling away from the faith in droves in the latter days we are living in now, was happening even in his day where believers are believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit by a sign and even again and again and again after other sensational signs in the flesh. In verses 13-15, Paul reminds believers of the tradition taught of us for when we had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel and at no other time to reprove that lie.

We are LIVING in the latter days where many are falling away from the faith in that regard and even resorting to their own power like making a commitment to follow Christ as if by keeping it, one can gain the assurance of salvation. And as if that is not enough, Promise Keepers' program was added more yoke unto wayward religious believers.

Not only that, but how many Protestant churches still believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and wine thus committing idolatry whereas some believe they are receiving that one time sacrifice for sins as another atonement again for the sins since last Mass or "holy communion" and they are provoking God for treating the blood of the New Covenant as if on par with the blood of goats & bulls that it bears repeating again. Even my former Presbyterian church would begin communion service with " We come into His Presence today.." when that is not the truth when He is in us and with us always.

There is only one way to come to God the Father in worship, prayer, & fellowship & it is only by the way of the Son;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

NOT by way of the Holy Spirit and NOT the Trinity.

Jesus has laid down that standard of judgment for how the father wants us to honor Him by and that is by only honoring the Son, because the moment you stop honoring the Son, you are no longer honoring the Father.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So salvation is not at risk, but being left behind is, for being workers of iniquity. That is what being a reprobate comes from as disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.


to be continued...

 

[ChristB4us]

The day of Christ is the day of His return.

1. 1 Corinthians 1:8
   Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Philippians 1:6
   Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
   
   
3. Philippians 1:10
   That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
   
   
4. Philippians 2:16
   Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

The falling away is the apostasy not a pretrib rapture! Our gathering will not happen before the man of sin is revealed. This passage is clear.

I agree that the falling away from the faith is the apostasy BUT that is why God has to judge His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture. After the rapture is the beast waging war on the saints and the saints are also dying from hunger because they need the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in the coming New World Order.
Now imagine that time if you can. There will be no church services being held for apostasy to abound. So Jesus's warning cannot apply to saints for the duration of the great tribulation BUT before the rapture event for why He is warning the 7 churches in Revelation to be ready or else..

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

That day that shall not come is the day of His return in verse 1 &2.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This passage is clear! There is no pre-trib rapture to heaven of the saints. I challenge you to deal with the wording of this passage!

Scripture is clear unless we die before Christ's return we may live to see and face the antichrist!

We are facing many spirits of the antichrist today, but for that son of perdition, THAT antichrist, that is for the duration of the great tribulation.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Now is the time for salvation and now is the time to go to Jesus Christ for help to trust Him as our Good Shepherd & friend to help us to discern & to depart from iniquity or risk being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

 

[Wordsmith]

You see one event whereas I see two events that Paul is talking about here. The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as the King of kings is one event, whereas He is not rapturing anyone but touching down on the Mount of Olives to do battle with the world's armies marching against Jerusalem. Our gathering unto Him is a separate event which is the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Ok let's talk about that. The text says:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

If this is two events why would Paul mention the latter event first and the first event last?

It seems to me that you have to work backwards to get where you are going. You start with the premise it is two events when nothing in the text suggest this its the case.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at hiscoming.

According to 1 Corinthians above we are raised at His coming which fits perfectly with 2 Thessalonians 2:1.

We can't just assume it is two events because you need it to be so. Show me from the text why it should be two events. I just compared scripture with scripture to show it is one.

Let's deal with specific wording of this text then we can move on to the next verse. I am not interested in assumptions here let's deal with the words in the text at hand.

 

[ChristB4us]

Ok let's talk about that. The text says:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

If this is two events why would Paul mention the latter event first and the first event last?

This can happen. Chronological order is not required.

Jesus did the same thing in Matthew 24th chapter when answering the 3 questions put to Him about future event.

It seems to me that you have to work backwards to get where you are going. You start with the premise it is two events when nothing in the text suggest this its the case.

All right then. Did not Paul testify that the iniquity in the latter days that will cause the falling away from the faith, was happening in his days or not?

Did Paul not testify to some lie that the believers will believe for why God will allow them to suffer a strong delusion by?

Did not Paul remind them of the traditions taught of us that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel to expose that lie as thinking believers can receive the Holy Spirit by a sign and again and again and again, if need be?

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

According to 1 Corinthians above we are raised at His coming which fits perfectly with 2 Thessalonians 2:1.

What is the order for how every man shall be made alive as if there are different resurrections at different times?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The order is the firstfruits of the resurrection which is at the pre great tribulation rapture event and then afterwards, they that be Christ's at His coming which is after the great tribulation has ended when the world's armies has been defeated and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years.

We can't just assume it is two events because you need it to be so. Show me from the text why it should be two events. I just compared scripture with scripture to show it is one.

Well I just showed you two events from 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 for how every man shall be made alive, but it is on the Lord to help you see that.

Let's deal with specific wording of this text then we can move on to the next verse. I am not interested in assumptions here let's deal with the words in the text at hand.

There is no assumptions when it comes to the order of how every man shall be made alive. some believe Christ the firstfruits is just referring to Jesus in the singular while ignoring the plural form of firstfruits and the fact that there is an order for how every man shall be made alive. If you remove the notion of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event and just see only the resurrection at His coming, then where is the order by which all men shall be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22 would be null & void for that effect to be true.

 

[EarlyActs]

or do look around for a Christ that has come in the desert

Very odd to end with Ps 50 as the one decisive line!

Support for the mill is very scattered. The ordinary-language (not the Rev) passages of the NT have nothing. What we do know from the most complete statement is 2 Peter 3 where there is the coming day of judgement for the world and then the NHNE. The idea that there is a puzzle to work with a hundred moving pieces is utterly wrong as far as representing the NT. But instead of seeing that, 10K writers put out books that say you don't really understand it until you read this book!

The delay doctrine at Mt 24:29 is essential. Before this, the material is about 1st cent. Judea and the surrounding world. After this is the whole world/universe and its judgement. The worldwide judgement was supposed to be right after Israel's, except that a delay was allowed, and 2 Peter 3 takes this very question up. (It may be taking up why the "end" of Dan 9 did not happen within 3.5 years of Messiah's death).

 

[Wordsmith]

This can happen. Chronological order is not required.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

If this is two events why would Paul mention the latter event first and the first event last?
Within a single sentence I believe it is to make sense.

Jesus did the same thing in Matthew 24th chapter when answering the 3 questions put to Him about future event.

No He did not! Show us a single sentence where Jesus jumbled the order of events.

All right then. Did not Paul testify that the iniquity in the latter days that will cause the falling away from the faith, was happening in his days or not?

It was happening in Pauls day and is happening in our day and will continue to be worse until the man of sin is revealed and the coming of Christ will not happen until after the falling away AND the man of sin is revealed.
That is what the text actually says with no spin.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

Did Paul not testify to some lie that the believers will believe for why God will allow them to suffer a strong delusion by?

Did not Paul remind them of the traditions taught of us that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel to expose that lie as thinking believers can receive the Holy Spirit by a sign and again and again and again, if need be?

What is the relevance to the question at hand?

What is the order for how every man shall be made alive as if there are different resurrections at different times?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is the stated order Christ first then they that are Christ's at His coming. Only one coming in this passage and only one resurrection in this passage.

The order is the firstfruits of the resurrection which is at the pre great tribulation rapture event and then afterwards, they that be Christ's at His coming which is after the great tribulation has ended when the world's armies has been defeated and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years.

No the text tells us Christ was the first fruits at His resurrection and when He returns it will be our turn. Sorry, you are adding to the text words and events that are not there.

Well I just showed you two events from 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 for how every man shall be made alive, but it is on the Lord to help you see that.

I can read and the Lord has helped me to see. It would be helpful if you would stop implying that if I do not agree with you I am not listening to the Lord.

For this conversation to bear any fruit it would be helpful if you actually dealt with the wording of the text without adding to it.

There is no assumptions when it comes to the order of how every man shall be made alive. some believe Christ the firstfruits is just referring to Jesus in the singular while ignoring the plural form of firstfruits and the fact that there is an order for how every man shall be made alive.

The fact is the text says Christ was first and we (the rest) are at His coming.

I have said before and will repeat here, there is no clear scripture that says there is a pre-trib rapture without reading needed events into to certain texts as you have done.

If you remove the notion of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event and just see only the resurrection at His coming, then where is the order by which all men shall be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22 would be null & void for that effect to be true.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ was the first fruits don't add, that is it Christ was the first fruits.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ was the first fruits again don't add to the passage Christ first then we that are His at His coming that is what it says!

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

There is no pre-trib coming anywhere in this passage! Other passages tell us when His coming is in relation to the tribulation and nowhere does any scripture say He comes before the tribulation.

I have already been where you are on this issue and probably have heard and debated many points you may never have heard of. I go by the text of scripture if it is not there it is not there. God Bless you my friend I only engage in this type of debate so that maybe someone who is on the fence about this will see different points and prayerfully come to their own conclusion.

I didn't easily change my mind on this. I was taught the pre-trib rapture from a child and I still believed it after I was saved. But one day at work I was having a discussion with a co-worker and we both believed the pre-trib notion. I read 2 Thessalonians 2 and saw what I had never noticed before and started digging deeper and I changed my view.

I am sure somewhere on a debate forum someone has changed their mind but in my 10 year experience I have not seen one person change their mind because of these debates in either direction. You are right about one thing any belief we have, we have to believe the Lord led us there or there is no point.

 

[ChristB4us]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

If this is two events why would Paul mention the latter event first and the first event last?
Within a single sentence I believe it is to make sense.

Let's read it in context;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

I would submit that in verse 5, Paul is addressing the believing Thessalonians that already knew that he was talking about as two events.

Now for you to take Paul's words as literal and not in general reference to the two topics at hand, then why don't you apply the coming of our Lord & Saviour as happening when the son of perdition reveals himself?

See?

If that day was to come when there is a falling away from the faith and when the son of perdition reveals himself, is that what Paul is really saying IF you read verses 3 & 4 as is?

This is why Paul is talking about 2 topics in general in regards to His coming which is at the end of the great tribulation even though halfway through that great tribulation is when that son of perdition reveals himself and that falling away from the faith is another day for why God has to judge His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event because many saved believers will not be resurrected at that time and the living saints & former believers are left behind as excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven..

The Lord is going to deal with the falling away from the faith as the Bridegroom in judging the House of God first at the pre great tribulation rapture event and then He will be judging that son of perdition when He comes as the King of kings at the end of the great tribulation.

Look at this in context below of the message above.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Paul is saying that the iniquity that shall cause the falling away of the faith in the latter days, was happening even in his day.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Here Paul is talking about His coming as the King of kings in dealing with that son of perdition, BUT not before revealing that Wicked one that has led believers astray which will be revealed at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Note how Paul shifts to Him dealing with the falling away from the faith at the pre great tribulation rapture event for which by that judgment on the House of God is the Wicked one is revealed.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And so Paul addresses the believers in exposing that lie by citing the tradition taught of us.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. ( which are the firstfruits of the resurrection ) 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Welsh Revival of 1904-1905 & Azusa Street Revival of 1906-1909 focus on the baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues thus preaching a gospel of tongues that comes with no interpretation and so assumed for private use & thus following a stranger's voice. out of those movements of the "spirit" is being drunk in the spirit, being filled with the spirit, holy laughter, visions of prophesies, healings, deliverance from alcoholism, ( when the phenomenon was not happening any more, it has been reported in secular news that the converts went back to alcoholism ) and so this is what happens when they promote the gospel by having seekers seek a sign in receiving the Holy Spirit. This is the falling away from the faith that Jesus will deal with at the pre great tribulation rapture event as this will reveal the Wicked One for the duration of the great tribulation for how this one world religion will unite everyone by those signs; tongues without interpretation that is just gibberish nonsense and feeling the spirit coming over them uniting them all in chaos and confusion, but the left behind saints & new believers will know better then.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

What Paul was addressing is what Jesus had the apostle John address in warning this church to repent or be left behind.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

So there is an escape from that great tribulation as well as that fire that is coming on the third of the earth and that is why Jesus is warning the churches to repent to be ready & hold fast with His help or else.

There is no point warning the 7 churches if they were all definitely going through the great tribulation.

 

[ChristB4us]

No He did not! Show us a single sentence where Jesus jumbled the order of events.

Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Jesus is testifying to the destruction of the Temple which had occurred in 70 A.D.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Where is Jesus answering the first question put to Him about the destruction of the Temple in red below? Do you see it? I don't.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
I see Him answering the second question as the signs of His coming and verse 14 is the sign of when the end shall come.
Many believers applied that reference as if the gospel has to be preached in all the world by them before the end comes, but not so.

Revelation 14:6-7 testifies to that first angel with the everlasting gospel as spreading it all over the world. Then the end comes by that second angel in Verse 8, testifying to the destruction of Babylon ( USA ) along with the third of the earth which sets the stage for the coming New World Order, and the mark of the beast system for the coming great tribulation. Then afterwards; the 3rd angel warns everyone of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell so that NO ONE has an excuse about not knowing the gospel nor about not knowing the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire, no matter what.

So at the pre great tribulation rapture event when all the tribes of the earth shall see the sign of the Son of Man, and mourn and hide themselves is when the end comes ( the fall of Babylon & the western hemisphere ) after that first angel spreads the everlasting gospel everywhere. The end of this world as we know it comes for why the New World Order is ushered in with that mark of the beast system.

Those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth for why Jesus had the apostle john to exhort the church at Philadelphia to hold fast and the Lord will keep them from that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth, thus the saints that behold fast shall not be on earth to endure that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth hence taken at the rapture event.

Anyway, at the start of this reply to you is why I say that Jesus was not answering the questions put to Him by His disciples in chronological order when the first question was about when the Temple they were looking at would be thrown down.

Then He mentions this:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is why preterist thinks this has already happened because something similar to the above had occurred in 70 A.D. for that conqueror did enter the Holy of holies and had defiled that Temple before destroying it, but they did not understand Daniel the prophet in that regard. The conqueror did not declare himself to be "God" then. The Temple was destroyed by the Romans due to the Jewish revolt; It certainly was not the breaking of any peace treaty 3 and a half years before that event.

So when did Jesus answered the first question put to Him by His disciples for when that Temple would fall? was it a double prophesy above?

 

[Wordsmith]

Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Jesus is testifying to the destruction of the Temple which had occurred in 70 A.D.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Where is Jesus answering the first question put to Him about the destruction of the Temple in red below? Do you see it? I don't.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
I see Him answering the second question as the signs of His coming and verse 14 is the sign of when the end shall come.
Many believers applied that reference as if the gospel has to be preached in all the world by them before the end comes, but not so.

Revelation 14:6-7 testifies to that first angel with the everlasting gospel as spreading it all over the world. Then the end comes by that second angel in Verse 8, testifying to the destruction of Babylon ( USA ) along with the third of the earth which sets the stage for the coming New World Order, and the mark of the beast system for the coming great tribulation. Then afterwards; the 3rd angel warns everyone of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell so that NO ONE has an excuse about not knowing the gospel nor about not knowing the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire, no matter what.

So at the pre great tribulation rapture event when all the tribes of the earth shall see the sign of the Son of Man, and mourn and hide themselves is when the end comes ( the fall of Babylon & the western hemisphere ) after that first angel spreads the everlasting gospel everywhere. The end of this world as we know it comes for why the New World Order is ushered in with that mark of the beast system.

Those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth for why Jesus had the apostle john to exhort the church at Philadelphia to hold fast and the Lord will keep them from that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth, thus the saints that behold fast shall not be on earth to endure that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth hence taken at the rapture event.

Anyway, at the start of this reply to you is why I say that Jesus was not answering the questions put to Him by His disciples in chronological order when the first question was about when the Temple they were looking at would be thrown down.

Then He mentions this:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is why preterist thinks this has already happened because something similar to the above had occurred in 70 A.D. for that conqueror did enter the Holy of holies and had defiled that Temple before destroying it, but they did not understand Daniel the prophet in that regard. The conqueror did not declare himself to be "God" then. The Temple was destroyed by the Romans due to the Jewish revolt; It certainly was not the breaking of any peace treaty 3 and a half years before that event.

So when did Jesus answered the first question put to Him by His disciples for when that Temple would fall? was it a double prophesy above?

I believe you misunderstood my statement and question to you. I said:

"No He did not! Show us a single sentence where Jesus jumbled the order of events."
The passage below is what the question was referring to.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

He comes , He gathers, two aspects of one event!

If I understand your position correctly you are say ing "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" refers to the second coming and "our gathering together" refers to a pre-trib rapture.

You said : "This can happen. Chronological order is not required." in reference to my question about verse 1.

I am not talking about the entirety of Mattew 24 or even the entire Book of Revelation Neither is entirely in chronological order. the question is about the chronological order of two statements in one single sentence verse 1 of 2 Thessalonians.

You claim two events out of order within that single sentence and I claim both statements refer to the same single event.

I did not see where you offered a single sentence where Jesus engaged in confusing timeline gymnastics within a single sentence.

I stand by my claim 2 Thessalonians verse one is two aspects of one event 1. His coming 2. to gather. This verse is not a confusing miss mash of out for order events except only to those who need it to be so to support a doctrine.

 

[Wordsmith]

Let's read it in context;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

I would submit that in verse 5, Paul is addressing the believing Thessalonians that already knew that he was talking about as two events.

Sure you can submit that, and wholeheartedly believe it but you can't prove it with scripture.

Now for you to take Paul's words as literal and not in general reference to the two topics at hand, then why don't you apply the coming of our Lord & Saviour as happening when the son of perdition reveals himself?

See?

If that day was to come when there is a falling away from the faith and when the son of perdition reveals himself, is that what Paul is really saying IF you read verses 3 & 4 as is?

This is why Paul is talking about 2 topics in general in regards to His coming which is at the end of the great tribulation even though halfway through that great tribulation is when that son of perdition reveals himself and that falling away from the faith is another day for why God has to judge His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event because many saved believers will not be resurrected at that time and the living saints & former believers are left behind as excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven..

The Lord is going to deal with the falling away from the faith as the Bridegroom in judging the House of God first at the pre great tribulation rapture event and then He will be judging that son of perdition when He comes as the King of kings at the end of the great tribulation.

You have read a lot into this passage that simply is not there.

Verse three is clear the falling away AND the revealing of the man of sin come before "that day" from verses 1 &2.

"That day" is the coming , and gathering, the Day of Christ. Verses 1&2.

You are not going to agree with me but I have already heard all of your arguments multiple times and they still do not line up with scripture. BUT I will be more than happy to address any pre-trib rapture points you make.

Maybe someone reading this can glean some insight they didn't have before.

Look at this in context below of the message above.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Paul is saying that the iniquity that shall cause the falling away of the faith in the latter days, was happening even in his day.

Yep!

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Here Paul is talking about His coming as the King of kings in dealing with that son of perdition, BUT not before revealing that Wicked one that has led believers astray which will be revealed at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

All assumption with no scriptural backing especially not in this text.

Note how Paul shifts to Him dealing with the falling away from the faith at the pre great tribulation rapture event for which by that judgment on the House of God is the Wicked one is revealed.

Again more assumption with no basis in fact from this text.

Welsh Revival of 1904-1905 & Azusa Street Revival of 1906-1909 focus on the baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues thus preaching a gospel of tongues that comes with no interpretation and so assumed for private use & thus following a stranger's voice. out of those movements of the "spirit" is being drunk in the spirit, being filled with the spirit, holy laughter, visions of prophesies, healings, deliverance from alcoholism, ( when the phenomenon was not happening any more, it has been reported in secular news that the converts went back to alcoholism ) and so this is what happens when they promote the gospel by having seekers seek a sign in receiving the Holy Spirit. This is the falling away from the faith that Jesus will deal with at the pre great tribulation rapture event as this will reveal the Wicked One for the duration of the great tribulation for how this one world religion will unite everyone by those signs; tongues without interpretation that is just gibberish nonsense and feeling the spirit coming over them uniting them all in chaos and confusion, but the left behind saints & new believers will know better then.

Not relevant to what we are talking about here BUT FYI I was healed back in the 80"'s at a full gospel reveal meeting and I am still healed!

So there is an escape from that great tribulation as well as that fire that is coming on the third of the earth and that is why Jesus is warning the churches to repent to be ready & hold fast with His help or else.

There is no point warning the 7 churches if they were all definitely going through the great tribulation.

Believers WILL be potentially exposed to persecution, but those that belong to Christ will NOT be expose to the wrath of God during the tribulation no fire for believers. This is a whole different topic in a study of the Book of Revelation.

 

[ChristB4us]

I believe you misunderstood my statement and question to you. I said:

"No He did not! Show us a single sentence where Jesus jumbled the order of events."
The passage below is what the question was referring to.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

He comes , He gathers, two aspects of one event!

I believe you are getting mixed up in our conversation now. That can happen to me also.

Jesus did not cite 2 Thessalonians 2:1. Paul did.

I was referring to Matthew 24th chapter about hos Jesus was answering the disciples 3 questions and He was not doing it in chronological order either.

It is from this example is why I was saying Paul does the same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter for citing His coming as the King of kings to do battle with the world's armies marching against Jerusalem and His appearing as that sign of the Son of Man that all the world will see and mourn in hiding while He gathers the abiding bride of Christ that are willing to leave before that fire comes on the earth that brings about the NWO & the great tribulation.

I mean really.. if you take Paul's words as is, then is His coming is when the falling away from the faith in the Christian churches will be happening at the same time that son of perdition is revealed? No. To be clearer still, is Jesus coming is when that son of perdition reveals himself? No. it does not happen at that moment but 3 and a half years later at the end of the great tribulation.

And so discernment and wisdom is needed here because this is why Jesus is warning the 7 churches in Revelation to be ready or else. if the churches will be in the great tribulation regardless, then His warnings to the churches is moot and void.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

the Bible is not contradictory. It is some Christians that use the rules of interpretation devised by others to claim that it is valid to interpret scripture in some plain meaning literally that get into trouble where it comes to eschatological views, which are man made opinions. Nobody seriously can harmonise these end times interpretative models or opinions and come out as if their belief is the absolute correct one. It's just all speculation based on a lack of common sense.

 

[Wordsmith]

I believe you are getting mixed up in our conversation now. That can happen to me also.

Jesus did not cite 2 Thessalonians 2:1. Paul did.

I was referring to Matthew 24th chapter about hos Jesus was answering the disciples 3 questions and He was not doing it in chronological order either.

No I am not mixed up. I did not say Jesus quoted 2 Thessalonians!

I believe you used Matthew 24 to try to prove Paul would actually place the second coming before the perceived pre-trib rapture in one single sentence. You told me that chronology was not required and used Matthew 24 as proof.

I challenged that by asking you to show me ONE sentence from Matthew 24 in which Jesus did what you claimed Paul did in 2 Thessalonians.

Nowhere that I can find did Jesus jumble the time line of events within the frame work of one single sentence as you claimed Paul did in 2 Thessalonians.

I hope this clears up the confusion.

 

[Wordsmith]

It is from this example is why I was saying Paul does the same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter for citing His coming as the King of kings to do battle with the world's armies marching against Jerusalem and His appearing as that sign of the Son of Man that all the world will see and mourn in hiding while He gathers the abiding bride of Christ that are willing to leave before that fire comes on the earth that brings about the NWO & the great tribulation.

I mean really.. if you take Paul's words as is, then is His coming is when the falling away from the faith in the Christian churches will be happening at the same time that son of perdition is revealed? No. To be clearer still, is Jesus coming is when that son of perdition reveals himself? No. it does not happen at that moment but 3 and a half years later at the end of the great tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

One event!

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

In context "Day of Christ" same day as His coming and gathering in verse 1.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In context falling away first and the man of sin revealed. Both will happen sometime before the event of verse one and two.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Verse 6 & 7 are a whole different discussion . Who is the "He" that is taken out of the way? Some say it is the Holy Spirit, some say it is the church, some say it is Michael the archangel. Some may have a totally different view. But it is not clearly stated.

It can't not be stated with absolute authority.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In Context this is the same coming as verse 1, verse 2, and the same coming that happens after the falling away and man of sin being revealed in verse 3.

There is no basis in the text for finding multiple comings in this passage. Jesus will only come once more in our future.

It is only by reading this text with pre-trib eyeglasses can on make multiple comings out of one.

And so discernment and wisdom is needed here because this is why Jesus is warning the 7 churches in Revelation to be ready or else. if the churches will be in the great tribulation regardless, then His warnings to the churches is moot and void.

Again the church, body of Christ, saints WILL NOT SUFFER THE WRATH Of GOD during the tribulation. Those judgments are poured out on the wicked only.

Some saints will suffer persecution during the tribulation, some will lose their heads but that is not the wrath of God. Many saints will die for Christ during that time but God will not rain down fire on His church.

The saints of God are still on earth during the judgments of Revelation but the saints are not the target of those judgements!

 

[ChristB4us]

No I am not mixed up. I did not say Jesus quoted 2 Thessalonians!

I believe you used Matthew 24 to try to prove Paul would actually place the second coming before the perceived pre-trib rapture in one single sentence. You told me that chronology was not required and used Matthew 24 as proof.

I challenged that by asking you to show me ONE sentence from Matthew 24 in which Jesus did what you claimed Paul did in 2 Thessalonians.

Nowhere that I can find did Jesus jumble the time line of events within the frame work of one single sentence as you claimed Paul did in 2 Thessalonians.

I hope this clears up the confusion.

I shall repeat the obvious again by asking 2 questions;

Was the first question of the 3 questions that His disciples had asked Him was for when the Temple they were seeing, would be thrown down?

Where did He answered that first question in Matthew 24th chapter?

 

[ChristB4us]

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

There is no basis in the text for finding multiple comings in this passage. Jesus will only come once more in our future.

You will have to come to that place with the Lord's help to set aside your negative points about "multiple comings " in regards to accepting the pre great tribulation rapture if you expect to answer this next question with the Lord's help.

When does Jesus comes as the Bridegroom to collect the abiding bride of Christ to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven?

How can Jesus comes as the King of kings to attack the world's armies that will be marching against Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation IF He is also coming as the Bridegroom to collect the abiding bride of Christ to sit down at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven?

 

[Wordsmith]

You will have to come to that place with the Lord's help to set aside your negative points about "multiple comings " in regards to accepting the pre great tribulation rapture if you expect to answer this next question with the Lord's help.

I do not accept your characterization that mine are negative points. Below are points from Scripture I would call positive points.

If I were to say (which I am Not) with the Lords help you could see I am right and you are wrong, would accept that ? I think not ! I ask you once to refrain from that tactic but so be it if you thinks that helps in our conversation. I assure you it does not.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Matt 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev 19:14 “the armies which were in heaven followed him”

1 Thess 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jude 14 “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints”

1 Thess 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

1. Matt 24 doesn’t mention Jesus or armies on a white horses, Rev 19 does.

2. Matt 24 mentions a trumpet, Rev 19 does not.

3. Matt 24 mentions coming in the clouds, Rev 19 does not.

4. Matt 24 mentions sun ,moon and stars, Rev 19 does not.

5. Matt 24 or Rev 19 doesn’t say his feet shall stand on the Mt of Olives, Zech 14 does

6. Zech. Does not say He comes from heaven, Matt and Rev do, Jude implies it.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Jude 14 “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints”

Rev 19:14 “the armies which were in heaven followed him”

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1 Corin 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1. The only thing 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corin 15 have in common is a trumpet.

2. 1 Thess says we will be caught up but 1 Corin 15 only says we will be changed.

3. 1 Thess. Mentions the Lord descending from heaven and shouting 1 Corin 15 does not.

I believe most pre and post tribbers will agree the 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corin 15 passages above are the same event. Also I believe most pre and post tribbers will agree the Matt 24 and Rev 19 passages are the same event. The disagreement starts when someone says all four are the same event. Then pre-tribbers begin to point out the differences that prove their point. Here are some facts we must settle:

1. No two coming of the Lord passages in the entire word of God are identical.

2. There are some overlapping similarities in many of them.

3. To simply say there is no resurrection in one or there is no trumpet in one proves nothing. As my examples show there are differences in passages that most all of us agree are the same event.

Things that tie all of them together:

1. Matt 24:30 “then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven”

Rev 19:11 “I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him”

2 Thess 2:1 “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”

1 Thess 4:16 ” For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven”

2. Matt 24:31 “with a great sound of a trumpet”

1 Thess 4:16 “with the trump of God”

1 Corin 15:52 “at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound”

3. Matt 24:31 “they shall gather together his elect”

1 Thess 4:17 “caught up together with them”

2 Thess 2:2 “by our gathering together unto him”

4. Jude , Revelation and 1 Thess says He comes with, saints, armies or them that sleep in Jesus (I submit they are the same group) the rest of the passages do not.

5. Zech 14:3 “the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations”

Rev 19:11 “in righteousness he doth judge and make war”

Rev 19:15 “he should smite the nations”

With all the differences and similarities I’ve pointed out here there are still more I didn’t mention. The point here is when one makes a Doctrinal stand by pointing out some little difference in wording they are on shaky ground and shifting sand at best. We need to harmonize these scriptures rather than divide them up into our neat little my pet doctrine piles.

Will someone really address the main point here. There are not 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical. How can we then in good conscience divide them up based on minor differences in wording? They all describe the same event with different details.

There is only one more coming of the Lord and resurrection of the righteous dead!