Decisional Regeneration vs. Divine Regeneration

[JIM]

Not according to Jesus in John 3. They don't have faith to believe unless they have been made a new man by regeneration.And, regeneration is not a reward for faith or dependent in any way upon faith. How could it be?

Faith to believe?? That is a nonsense statement to begin with. Faith is belief. To have faith in God is to believe in God.

 

[JIM]

But I'm sure you see the practice all the time.

What I see is Calvinists claiming they see that all the time.

 

[Carbon]

John 3 doesn't say that.

Try to stay focused Jim.

 

[Carbon]

What I see is Calvinists claiming they see that all the time.

Well, that practice is obvious. Do you have an alter in your church? Are people invited to it?

 

[Arial]

As I said, I don't know anyone who thinks he can save himself. That is what the Calvinist says about the non-Calvinist.

Yes, he can do anything and everything except, hear and believe in God. In other words, God, by the Holy Spirit and through the Prophets and Apostles produced his written word, knowing that there would be absolutely no one who could be able to understand and obey any of it. And even worse, condemning them for that.

You are changing the subject, going over things that have already been gone over ad nauseam in another thread. I will not take the bait.How about you bite the bullet and give an answer to post #45.

 

[JIM]

Try to stay focused Jim.

Try to stay focused Carbon.

 

[Carbon]

Try to stay focused Carbon.

Okay. Thanks

 

[JIM]

Okay. Thanks

You are most welcome.

 

[Carbon]

You are most welcome.

 

[Carbon]

You are most welcome.

Well, Jim, I have to run out for a while. I will try and catch up later. You have fun.

 

[Arial]

Faith to believe?? That is a nonsense statement to begin with. Faith is belief. To have faith in God is to believe in God.

We have been around that merry-go-round before too. Do you have any new material?

 

[JIM]

Write that in your notebook. Keep that definition with all your other made-up definitions.

Show me that it is not the Calvinist definition of election. Or do you not believe in predestined reprobation as well as salvation?

 

[Carbon]

Show me that it is not the Calvinist definition of election. Or do you not believe in predestined reprobation as well as salvation?

When I return I'll see what I can do to help you out.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes.

Oh sure, I agree some are saved during this process. Some dont know it but they are not being saved then because of their decision, they are just expressing their heart because of what the Spirit has done. It is just very misleading. And the people who started it, like Finney was a heritic IMO.

I would imagine everyone has a little heretic in them. Some a lot more than others.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus had just told them who and how would be drawn by the Father.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

I think you ought to do a word study on the term "draw" and how it is used in the bible. Most people seem to want to use the word as a form of wooing...like here kitty kitty.

Here's several uses in the bible that indicates a type of force used...
Acts 16:19 But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

Acts 21:30 uses it this way...Then all the city was stirred up, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut.

James 2:6 puts it this way...But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you and drag you into court?

John 21:11 uses the term and associates it with hauling in nets...Therefore Simon Peter went up and drew the net to the land, full of large fish, a hundred fifty-three. Although there are so many, the net was not torn.

There's more if you would like to check it out here.

 

[CrowCross]

Which has absolutely no salvific value at all..... but it is difficult to convince those who think otherwise.

That would be the case for me. Although for many years as a volitionlist I thought the experience was my own doing (at least synergistically) and only upon further reading and contemplation of God's word did I realize that was not the case. God had been preparing me form years, even since my birth, for that moment, and it was He that moved me to stand, confess, and believe. Praise God!

It's all God and zero us.

 

[Red Baker]

In the passage of verses 60-71 Jesus is speaking to his disciples and His evident purpose here was to encourage the faithful disciples. The defection of many, the unbelief of some, and the treachery of one — all of these were events which were due to the fact of their rejecting God’s word by which they would have been drawn to Jesus, and thus it was not given unto them by the Father to be Jesus’ disciples and to have eternal life.

Good morning old friend, trust you are doing well in all sincerity. I trust if I live until I'm in my eighties like you, I would be in good health with a sharp mind, still discussing God's word with others~this is a true blessing from Heaven~which I'm sure you are thankful.

Jim, you are wrong, but what's new on this subject between you and I?

Jim, one can be a disciple of the word of God such as you and I and others on Christian forums around this world, but this is no proof we have been drawn by God, none whatsoever, even Judas Iscariot proved this to be so, and millions have since prove this by their lack of faith andf love for the truth. The gospel net has always gathered together both good fishes and bad, and will until Jesus comes again, this is not going to change. You know this, so why try to prove that just because one is a disciple proves he has been drawn of the Father? That's not being honest with the scriptures you can do better than this and should btw.

Jim to be drawn of God is more than just being moved by preaching with a commitment to the same. The drawing of God is a revelation made to the soul of the sinner~it is a creation of a new man within the elect sinner. It causes men to say as peter did:

John 6:68.69~"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

This faith no man has until it is freely given unit them of God.

Matthew 16:17​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

This is the true drawing of God, it is not a possibility of one coming and not believing, but it is a resurrection from the dead to life in Jesus Christ, which resurrection puts the sinner on a sure foundation of being taught of God, without which spiritual resurrection it would be impossible to teach and instruct any man in the way of the kingdom of God, impossible.

John 6:44,45~"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Folks have a very strange way of explaining scripture like John 6:44,45, by saying no man can come to Christ except the Father draws him, once drawn by the Father the sinner must make a decision to believe and finish the process of God's drawing! Yes, you heard me correctly, how blind can one be, or maybe I should say, how far one will go to support this false gospel of including the sinner in the new birth, by making him the true reason why one is born again and why the next man is not.

Such men do not understand what the true drawing of God consist of, they have no clue whatsoever.

 

[Red Baker]

But, some people are actually saved during this "process". That is the Holy Spirit uses the message of the evangelist and changes ones heart...regenerates them...and in response to that the person responds to the alter call.

My friend, God does not regenerate men through any man's message, impossible! If I truly believed in that, then I would be the biggest hypocrite in the world if I did not spend every resource I had to get folks born again~especially so my love ones.

The gospel only brings to light life, it does not bring life, only the Spirit of God can do that, not man.

2 Timothy 1:10​

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

The gospel will do one of two things when faithfully preached~it will manifest death and it will bring to light where there is life!

This being said~we agree that God's children have responded to alter calls but, it was their new man responding, not the flesh! IT could have been one of their first true actions of following God, even though some have confused this with being born again, but over time they will come to understand the difference........... maybe, or maybe not, it truly will have no bearing on anything other than a better knowledge of the truth.

 

[JIM]

I think you ought to do a word study on the term "draw" and how it is used in the bible. Most people seem to want to use the word as a form of wooing...like here kitty kitty.

Here's several uses in the bible that indicates a type of force used...
Acts 16:19 But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

Acts 21:30 uses it this way...Then all the city was stirred up, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut.

James 2:6 puts it this way...But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you and drag you into court?

John 21:11 uses the term and associates it with hauling in nets...Therefore Simon Peter went up and drew the net to the land, full of large fish, a hundred fifty-three. Although there are so many, the net was not torn.

There's more if you would like to check it out here.

None of that changes what Jesus said in 6:45 and following.

 

[Red Baker]

I think you ought to do a word study on the term "draw" and how it is used in the bible. Most people seem to want to use the word as a form of wooing...like here kitty kitty.

LOL! I think you said it best, I never have heard it said in this way, but you are 100% correct. Let us look at John 6:44.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

No man can come to me.

Coming to Christ here is to believe on Jesus Christ as God’s Son from heaven. The issue at stake – clearly stated as a premise – is believing on Him (6:29). Note the clear comparison between coming and believing on Him (Jn 6:35). Note again the clear comparison between believing and coming (Jn 6:36-37). Note a third clear comparison of coming and believing on Him (Jn 6:44-47). Note a fourth clear comparison of believing and coming to Him (6:64-65).

Let these words lodge in your memory and be a foundation stone of truth. We have no more right to modify these words than Satan in Genesis 3:4.

Since Genesis 3:6 man has been dead spiritually in need of total resurrection. There is no cure or remedy to offer a dead man – you must give the man life. Any study of salvation must deal with this fact of man’s depravity and death.

No man can come to me = all men run to sin in hatred and rebellion against me. Paul’s first chapter is a terrible indictment of men and truth (Rom 1:18-32). He then used the scriptures to show the utter depravity of man (Rom 3:9-18). Luke’s record of Paul’s preaching at Antioch illustrated it (Acts 13:38-52). Natural man greatly opposes truth (Ro 8:7-8; I Cor 2:14; Ep 2:1-3; 4:17-19).

There is no ability of heart or will for natural man to submit to the Son of God. It is not a matter of intellect or intelligence as much as depravity of the will. Men can still reason logically, but they will not do so toward spiritual truth. Jesus denied a ruler of the Jews the ability to see Christ’s kingdom (Jn 3:3). Jesus on trial for His life declared that the Jews would not believe (Jn 5:40). Jesus denied another Jewish audience the ability to hear Him (John 8:43,47). Man’s universal depravity is described in detail by Paul (Romans 1:18-32). There is no man, Jew or Gentile, able to understand such things (Ro 3:9-18).

Natural man is dead to spiritual truth of God (Ro 8:7-8; I Co 2:14; Ep 2:1-3). Therefore, no effort or method will help to bring an unregenerate man to Christ. It is a terrible shame this verse and its doctrine and repetition are ignored (6:65).

1. It is the doctrine of total depravity, where any study of salvation must start.
2. It results in many false salvation ideas by not rightly seeing man depraved.
3. It results in a weak view of salvation where man can choose to save himself.
4. It results in confusing God’s mighty work of regeneration or quickening.
5. It results in a presumptuous idea that man has a free will to be manipulated.
6. It results in decisional salvation where man is pushed and pulled to choose.
7. It results in ridiculous methods – the end justifies the means – for salvation.
8. It results in false confidence in salvation by ignoring the role of good works.
9. It results in missing God’s promise to regenerate His elect and convert them.
10. It results in confounding the order of regeneration and conversion of sinners.
11. It results in confidence in oneself or in man rather than in God’s free grace.
12. Free will? God’s will is free, but even He cannot will sinfully (Rom 9:14).
13. The evident proof of depravity is repeated in light of ascension (6:62-65).
14. If all are depraved and rebels against God, will any come to Christ and how?
    1. The differences among men are incredible, but they are not by innate ability.
    2. It is not that some men are born better than others by nature … but by grace.

We will finish this verse later after a meeting....