Decisional Regeneration vs. Divine Regeneration

[JIM]

Good morning old friend, trust you are doing well in all sincerity. I trust if I live until I'm in my eighties like you, I would be in good health with a sharp mind, still discussing God's word with others~this is a true blessing from Heaven~which I'm sure you are thankful.

Hey there Red, yes I am doing pretty well. I keep getting slower and slower every year. But most don't live as long as I have already and I still have my mind to read and learn. But I have to say, that I will not be sorry to have this life come to an end. I am very ready to go be with Jesus where I know my wife and so many others that I have loved in this world are. And where, by the way Red, I know that you will also be one day.

Jim, you are wrong, but what's new on this subject between you and I?

Jim, one can be a disciple of the word of God such as you and I and others on Christian forums around this world, but this is no proof we have been drawn by God, none whatsoever, even Judas Iscariot proved this to be so, and millions have since prove this by their lack of faith andf love for the truth. The gospel net has always gathered together both good fishes and bad, and will until Jesus comes again, this is not going to change. You know this, so why try to prove that just because one is a disciple proves he has been drawn of the Father? That's not being honest with the scriptures you can do better than this and should btw.

Jim to be drawn of God is more than just being moved by preaching with a commitment to the same. The drawing of God is a revelation made to the soul of the sinner~it is a creation of a new man within the elect sinner. It causes men to say as peter did:

John 6:68.69~"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

This faith no man has until it is freely given unit them of God.

Matthew 16:17​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

This is the true drawing of God, it is not a possibility of one coming and not believing, but it is a resurrection from the dead to life in Jesus Christ, which resurrection puts the sinner on a sure foundation of being taught of God, without which spiritual resurrection it would be impossible to teach and instruct any man in the way of the kingdom of God, impossible.

I know that you would like to compare yourself to Peter, but that won't work. What Jesus revealed there was that Peter did indeed have a personal visit from God directly. It was indeed divine revelation and it was identified as such by Jesus. That is not what is meant by being drawn by the Father. That was a special situation. It was limited to only a few people such as the Prophets and Apostles of God. And that has nothing whatsoever to do with regeneration. I know that you think John the Baptist was regenerated, but that is not so stated and it was not true. Regeneration is a new feature of the New Covenant.

What that shows is that there was a distinct difference between the empowering role of the Holy Spirit and indwelling role of the Holy Spirit. They are two different roles completely. But you and I have been through that discussion before more than once.

Folks have a very strange way of explaining scripture like John 6:44,45, by saying no man can come to Christ except the Father draws him, once drawn by the Father the sinner must make a decision to believe and finish the process of God's drawing! Yes, you heard me correctly, how blind can one be, or maybe I should say, how far one will go to support this false gospel of including the sinner in the new birth, by making him the true reason why one is born again and why the next man is not.

That God presents a person with the opportunity to believe rather than imposing an injunction to believe is the message of the Bible from beginning to end. But you reject it in spades and insist, wrongly, that the sovereignty of God demands determinism. The account of Adam and Eve defies your determinism . The account of Cain and Abel defies your determinism. The account of Job defies your determinism. The account of God's chosen Nation Israel and Jesus weeping over Jerusalem (Matt 23:37; Luke 10:41) defies your determinism. Monergism, i.e., determinism is false. Synergism does not make the believer the true reason why one is born again.

The report of the encounter of Thomas with the risen Jesus says it all:

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Such men do not understand what the true drawing of God consist of, they have no clue whatsoever.

That is so true. And a large percentage of those are known as Calvinists. The Bible is the true drawing of God. It is written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[Josheb]

It's all God and zero us.

Yep. The sinner cannot save himself from sin and God needs no help, nor is any way dependent on the sinner to save.

 

[makesends]

The Gospel Is Not Involved In Regeneration.... The Condition of Man precludes it.

The gospel cannot help those who are dead (Gen 2:17; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13). The gospel cannot help those who cannot see it (John 3:3). The gospel cannot help those who cannot hear it (John 8:43). The gospel cannot help those who cannot understand it (John 8:43; Rom 3:11). The gospel cannot help those who will not understand it (Rom 3:11).f) The gospel cannot help those who will not seek God (Ps 14:2-3; Rom 3:11).g) The gospel cannot help those who cannot please God (Rom 8:8). The gospel cannot help those who cannot be subject to it (Rom 8:7). The gospel cannot help even if one preached from the dead (Luke 16:31). The gospel cannot help those who are beyond any reformation (Isa 26:10).k) The gospel cannot help those beyond the Spirit’s influence (1 Cor 2:14).l) The gospel cannot help those at war with the Spirit (Gal 5:17). The gospel cannot help those at war with God (Rom 5:8; 8:7). The gospel cannot help those without any fear of God (Rom 3:18; Ps 36:1). The gospel cannot help those that do not have any faith (Heb 11:6; Ps 10:4). The gospel cannot help those who think it is foolishness (1 Cor 1:18). The gospel cannot help those whose minds are blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4:3-4). The gospel cannot help those without any strength (Rom. 5:6).

You have a small view of the Gospel, it seems to me.

Part of the details of the Gospel, besides the fact of sin and redemption, though part of the whole sum of details, is the grace by which the Spirit of God 'moves in' to the person, and regenerates their dead heart and mind. The same Spirit by which a person is reborn also imparts the faith by which one believes the Gospel.

I tend to have a problem with people saying that "God cannot..." whatever. And the Gospel is the whole business, from God creating for a purpose, until the consummation of the purpose, when we see Him as He is. Don't tell me what the Gospel cannot do.

 

[Arial]

You are changing the subject, going over things that have already been gone over ad nauseam in another thread. I will not take the bait.How about you bite the bullet and give an answer to post #45.

As there has been no effort to deal with the scriptures in post #45 over and against the interpretation of John 6:44-45 and John 6:66-71 @JIM I will assume what I already know. That it can't be done. My hope is that it brought to mind a recognition of interpretive shortcomings and that you are perhaps pondering it. Pondering is good. Don't walk away from it.

Though I do not believe it in any way affects salvation to understand and see these things, I know that if seen it opens wide a door to a deeper understanding of God and the crucifixion and the depth of the grace and mercy of God, the power and love of Christ, and the great blessing of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. And I know you have some of this knowledge, and even that it is sufficient unto salvation. But we don't know what we don't know, and I have come to know that what I say about it in this paragraph is so. When I first saw it in the depths of my understanding, from my mind and straight into my heart, it dropped me to my knees. And thus began the journey into the "picture" instead of only standing on the outside, in awe, true, but still----there is always more.

 

[donadams]

Jn 3:5 baptismal regeneration

 

[Arial]

In some cases, I guess you could call it that.

You have it backward. Colossians 2 says that it is through faith that one was once dead but made alive. That clearly says that it is those who believe in God, those who have faith, that are regenerated. Ephesians 2 says the same thing. It is by grace through faith.

Regeneration is conversion; converted from a lost sinner to a saved saint.

Regeneration is a new heart---something only God can do and that He declares He will do.

Ez 36:25-27 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new Spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Instead of a heart that is at enmity with God and turned away from Him, this regeneration by God softens our heart and we turn towards Him, loving the Lord our God with all our heart and with all our soul and with all our mind. And we believe Him whereas before, we did not, even if we sort of acknowledged His existence

 

[Arial]

Jn 3:5 baptismal regeneration

Not the Catholic board Don. Not about baptism. And communication requires more than what you offered.

 

[donadams]

Not the Catholic board Don. Not about baptism. And communication requires more than what you offered.

Sorry

 

[JIM]

Regeneration is a new heart---something only God can do and that He declares He will do.

Ez 36:25-27 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new Spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Instead of a heart that is at enmity with God and turned away from Him, this regeneration by God softens our heart and we turn towards Him, loving the Lord our God with all our heart and with all our soul and with all our mind. And we believe Him whereas before, we did not, even if we sort of acknowledged His existence

But none of that is said to be done independently of or in spite of one's own desires for it.

 

[Arial]

But none of that is said to be done independently of or in spite of one's own desires for it.

It does not even mention the desires of men. It only says what God will do. To read "independently or in spite of one's own desires" into the text where it is not, is eisegesis. Start with "Who is God?" Not, "Who is man?"

 

[JIM]

It does not even mention the desires of men. It only says what God will do. To read "independently or in spite of one's own desires" into the text where it is not, is eisegesis. Start with "Who is God?" Not, "Who is man?"

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

 

[Arial]

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Why would they have none of it? And Jim, you can't take something you interpret in a specific way and then stick it into another Scripture to what isn't there, is there. Which is what you have done and it is not a legitimate interpretive method.

 

[CrowCross]

None of that changes what Jesus said in 6:45 and following.

I was hoping you would talk about the word...dragged. or, at least provided a little more commentary with your post.

 

[CrowCross]

Since Genesis 3:6 man has been dead spiritually in need of total resurrection. There is no cure or remedy to offer a dead man – you must give the man life. Any study of salvation must deal with this fact of man’s depravity and death.

As i have said in the past....some see salvation as a man drowning in a lake...coming up for his last breath a life preserver is thrown to him. All the man needs to do is reach out and grab it...and be saved. In reality the man is already dead and laying on the floor of the lake. God Himself has to jump in and drag him to shore and restore life.

 

[CrowCross]

Yep. The sinner cannot save himself from sin and God needs no help, nor is any way dependent on the sinner to save.

Why God saves one and not another...I don't know. I do know God has compassion on whoever He wants to have compassion on.

We don't cock our head and smile at God like a puppy dog...where God then says, OK, you're so cute I'll adopt you.

 

[Alive]

I was hoping you would talk about the word...dragged. or, at least provided a little more commentary with your post.

44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Thayer (Greek Entry)

1670. ἕλκω; helkō (and in later writings helkuō also (Veitch, under the word; Winer’s Grammar, 86 (82))); imperfect heilkon (Acts 21:30); future helkusō (elkusō Rec.elz John 12:32); 1 aorist heilkusa ((infinitive (John 21:6) helkusai Rbez elz L T WH, helkusai R s G Tr); cf. Alexander Buttmann (1873) Ausf. Spr. sec. 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger, sec. 40, under the word; (Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word)); from Homer down; the Septuagint for māšak; to draw;
1. properly: to diktuon, John 21:6, 11; machairan, i.e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); tina, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), exō tou hierou, Acts 21:30; eis tēn agoran, Acts 16:19; eis kritēria, James 2:6 (pros ton dēmon, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4) cum trinis catenis vinctus traheretur, Livy 2, 27 cum a lictoribus jam traheretur).

 

[JIM]

Why would they have none of it? And Jim, you can't take something you interpret in a specific way and then stick it into another Scripture to what isn't there, is there. Which is what you have done and it is not a legitimate interpretive method.

Why would they have none of it? That is the wrong question. Given your view on such things, the real question is why Jesus would even think to have gathered them together as a hen gathers her brood if it all depended upon God's decision to make them want to and didn't. Was Jesus not aware of what was first required?

John 5:36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

And why was that? According to you it is because God had not regenerated them. Seriously? And Jesus didn't know and understand that?

Jesus went on to say, John 5:46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

How could they possibly have believed the writings of Moses, according to you, if they had not first been regenerated? Obviously, given that God had not first regenerated them, they had no choice whatsoever. So given that they had not been regenerated, then what did Jesus expect? Why was He calling them out for not believing?

 

[Alive]

Why would they have none of it? That is the wrong question. Given your view on such things, the real question is why Jesus would even think to have gathered them together as a hen gathers her brood if it all depended upon God's decision to make them want to and didn't. Was Jesus not aware of what was first required?

John 5:36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

And why was that? According to you it is because God had not regenerated them. Seriously? And Jesus didn't know and understand that?

Jesus went on to say, John 5:46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

How could they possibly have believed the writings of Moses, according to you, if they had not first been regenerated? Obviously, given that God had not first regenerated them, they had no choice whatsoever. So given that they had not been regenerated, then what did Jesus expect? Why was He calling them out for not believing?

If I may reply and interject something. It seems to me that Jesus was talking to the Jews. The Jews that were the recipients of the law and a great many miracles done on their behalf through their history. They believed those things actually happened. It was their heritage.
And, even though they knew these things and were sure of them, they were not faithful.
They had no power or means to be regenerated, but they could choose as men to be faithful the what they were given.
These things, it seems to me, put a different spin on the matter.
Recall also, the Jesus was the last Jewish prophet speaking to Israel.

 

[JIM]

If I may reply and interject something. It seems to me that Jesus was talking to the Jews. The Jews that were the recipients of the law and a great many miracles done on their behalf through their history. They believed those things actually happened. It was their heritage.
And, even though they knew these things and were sure of them, they were not faithful.
They had no power or means to be regenerated, but they could choose as men to be faithful the what they were given.
These things, it seems to me, put a different spin on the matter.
Recall also, the Jesus was the last Jewish prophet speaking to Israel.

So the Jews didn't need to be regenerated but we do? They could choose as men to be faithful to what they were given? What were they given that you don't have?

 

[JIM]

As i have said in the past....some see salvation as a man drowning in a lake...coming up for his last breath a life preserver is thrown to him. All the man needs to do is reach out and grab it...and be saved. In reality the man is already dead and laying on the floor of the lake. God Himself has to jump in and drag him to shore and restore life.

So why doesn't He?