Decisional Regeneration vs. Divine Regeneration

[JIM]

How does that person come to Jesus if the Father doesn't grant it?

John 6:65? And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Jesus had just told them who and how would be drawn by the Father.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

In the passage of verses 60-71 Jesus is speaking to his disciples and His evident purpose here was to encourage the faithful disciples. The defection of many, the unbelief of some, and the treachery of one — all of these were events which were due to the fact of their rejecting God’s word by which they would have been drawn to Jesus, and thus it was not given unto them by the Father to be Jesus’ disciples and to have eternal life.

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

The last verses in that chapter explain that even after being drawn to the Father, some rejected him.

Joh 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
Joh 6:67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?"
Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
Joh 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."
Joh 6:71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

Clearly it is shown that it is those who did not believe Jesus or just rejected what He taught that went away and who were not granted by the Father.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

I understand your point...many people who answer the "alter call' are responding on pure emotion as it often only last several days.

But, some people are actually saved during this "process". That is the Holy Spirit uses the message of the evangelist and changes ones heart...regenerates them...and in response to that the person responds to the alter call.

Yes indeed, just like it happened in Ephesus when Paul, a chosen vessel (Elect), was busy spreading the Gospel.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Because of Paul’s message and witness to these Gentiles in Ephesus, they were saved, too!
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints… Ephesians 1:11-15

Lu

 

[Arial]

Clearly it is shown that it is those who did not believe Jesus or just rejected what He taught that went away and who were not granted by the Father.

How would you justify your interpretation of those John 6 verses over and against John 10



22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Or with the previous verses in John 6


37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

 

[JIM]

Dead in trespass and sin refers to your spirit. To your position concerning salvation. Yes, you may be able to reuse, eat, drink etc......but your relationship with God is not there.

But even so, one can read and learn from God's word and come to believe. It is in through believing in God that one comes to Him and is regenerated, i.e., dead but made alive.

Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

 

[JIM]

Prove it.

Prove it is a good one.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Yes.

Oh sure, I agree some are saved during this process. Some dont know it but they are not being saved then because of their decision, they are just expressing their heart because of what the Spirit has done. It is just very misleading. And the people who started it, like Finney was a heritic IMO.

Yes, but not all.

 

[Carbon]

Yes, but not all.

But not all?

 

[Arial]

But even so, one can read and learn from God's word and come to believe. It is in through believing in God that one comes to Him and is regenerated, i.e., dead but made alive.

Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

When we were dead in our trespasses and sins---WHO made us alive? Are you maybe confusing sanctification with regeneration?

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Clearly it is shown that it is those who did not believe Jesus or just rejected what He taught that went away and who were not granted by the Father.

Right. These unbelievers surely were not of the Elect who were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Lu

 

[JIM]

How would you justify your interpretation of those John 6 verses over and against John 10



22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Or with the previous verses in John 6


37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."
Joh 6:71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

 

[Arial]

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."
Joh 6:71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

You did not answer my question. Will you please do so now? At the very least you could tell me what your purpose was in quoting the above verses and how that pertained to my question. This kind of obfuscating serves no purpose.

 

[JIM]

When we were dead in our trespasses and sins---WHO made us alive? Are you maybe confusing sanctification with regeneration?

Dead in your trespasses and sins and then made alive is regeneration. Regeneration is the first step in being sanctified.

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Carbon]

But even so, one can read and learn from God's word and come to believe.

So, it's based on personal feelings or tastes? Subjective receptivity? So, someone just needs to hit you with the gospel at the right time and way? If you're in a good mood at the time, the chances are better.

It is in through believing in God that one comes to Him and is regenerated, i.e., dead but made alive.

Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

It is through the Holy Spirit regenerating a lost sinner, once dead but made alive, then one comes to Him - conversion.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

But not all?

See my post #22–the Elect sharing the Gospel with other Elect.

Lu

 

[Carbon]

See my post #22–the Elect sharing the Gospel with other Elect.

Lu

Because of Paul’s message and witness to these Gentiles in Ephesus, they were saved, too!

But I don't believe they were saved because they heard Paul's message. That's probably not what you're suggesting though, right?

 

[Carbon]

See my post #22–the Elect sharing the Gospel with other Elect.

Lu

I believe it is impossible that the external call by itself can produce faith in the heart of a natural man.

 

[JIM]

You did not answer my question. Will you please do so now? At the very least you could tell me what your purpose was in quoting the above verses and how that pertained to my question. This kind of obfuscating serves no purpose.

I guess I don't understand your question. Are you asking who are His sheep?

 

[Carbon]

@ShepherdsPie

The natural man cannot exercise saving faith since he cannot see the kingdom of God and its treasures, and much less can he appreciate the same.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

But I don't believe they were saved because they heard Paul's message. That's probably not what you're suggesting though, right?

The Gospel (Jesus) saved them. The Elect spread the Gospel. Understand?

 

[Carbon]

The Gospel (Jesus) saved them. The Elect spread the Gospel. Understand?

Yes. I understand what you are saying now.

Sorry