Decisional Regeneration vs. Divine Regeneration

[Arial]

So why doesn't He?

Ask Him.

 

[Alive]

So the Jews didn't need to be regenerated but we do? They could choose as men to be faithful to what they were given? What were they given that you don't have?

That is not what I am saying at all.

 

[JIM]

Ask Him.

I know why. I think it is you who don't.

 

[JIM]

That is not what I am saying at all.

That is what it sounds like to me. But, of course, that could be just me.

 

[Arial]

So the Jews didn't need to be regenerated but we do? They could choose as men to be faithful to what they were given? What were they given that you don't have?

Not a single one of them was faithful, not even David, though David was called the apple of His eye. The difference was David's heart---same as it is with the believer of today. God can regenerate a heart anytime, anywhere, with anyone. The difference in David's sins---for which he dearly paid and the nation paid since he was their king---is that David loved God, loved the commandments, and the thing he never did was go after other gods.

If God had expected that any sinful man could obey perfectly there would not have been temporary covering as redemption moved forward. And if any could be perfectly righteous, we would all be on our own----no atonement that destroyed sin and death.

 

[Red Baker]

Except the Father.

The impossibility of man ever believing on His Son is solved by God’s grace. Here the key word is except – elsewhere it is the inspired disjunctive but (Rom 5:8; 6:17; I Cor 1:27; 3:7; Gal 1:15; Eph 2:4; II Thess 2:13; Tit 3:4). God must intervene, because man’s inability is beyond his own help (6:44). God makes all the difference – every bit of it – and shall get all the praise.

Except, unless and until, a man is born again, he cannot see Christ (John 3:3,5).

This explanation and condemnation of the audience is repeated (6:44, 65). The will of the flesh or will of man has no role, only the Spirit (Jn 1:13; 3:8).

There is no need to find shades of difference between drawing and regeneration. Without regeneration, no drawing will work, even by the Spirit (I Cor 2:14). Jesus denied even the most dramatic events as having no value (Luke 16:31).

Please note: :Without God’s persuading operation, regeneration may give life without conversion (Gal 1:15-16 cp I Tim 1:12 cp Acts 9:6 cp Rom 11:28). Well, actually it does every time, because no one person is fully converted in every area of their life.

There is a work of revelation that follows regeneration (Eph 1:17; 3:14-19) in most all cases

All glory to God the Father … giving us to Christ (6:37) … drawing us (6:44).

In between the Lord Jesus Christ secured the redemption of every single one. The effect of being drawn is to come to Christ and believe on Him (6:40,47). The result of God’s gracious work is in the last day – the resurrection of life.

If we believe on Christ with true love and service, we are bound to thank God. We are different from the vast majority of mankind in so following Christ. God made the difference, not us, so we must thank Him (II Thess 2:9-14)!

"Which hath sent me".

Jesus continually stated His divine authority and mission on earth from heaven. Remember, this is exactly what the Jews murmured about before this sentence! Jesus came down from heaven because the Father sent Him down from heaven. Truth about salvation is a wise and prudent plan formed in all details in eternity.

"Draw him".

John already introduced and explained this event (John 1:13; 3:3,5,8; 5:24-25). The word draw has many meanings, and it is Bible context that must determine.

The word draw is used here due to the emphasis on coming to Jesus Christ. If no man can come (ability) – to go to Him in faith – what will move him?

Draw. I. Of traction. II. Of attraction. III. Of extraction. IV. Of tension, extension, protraction. V. Of delineation or construction. VI. Of motion, moving oneself. VII. In combination with adverbs.

Bible doctrine requires this drawing to be God’s powerful grace changing the heart and mind of man to be willing by a new nature to hate sin and love Christ.

The synonyms or defining words are drag, haul, move, pull, tow, tug, etc. The change is birth, quickening, regeneration, creation, resurrection, renew. These inspired terms require divine choice, divine power, man’s passivity, instantaneous act, giving of life, deny any creature activity, creature death.

The terms exclusively require God’s sovereign choice and man is passive. Our quickening took the same power as raising Jesus (Eph 1:19-20; 2:1-3). John gives illustrative examples of draw (2:8-9; 4:7,11,15; 18:10; 21:6,11). The day of Christ’s power made His elect willing in several ways (Ps 110:3). God gives repentance to save from Satan and contradiction (II Tim 2:25-26) As we ahve said once above~God must open hearts for a person to attend to Bible preaching (Acts 16:14). Faith itself is God’s gift – that is quite a drawing event (Jas 2:5; II Thes 3:2)!

This drawing cannot be mere attraction, invitation, or persuasion of the sinner.

Unregenerate cannot be attracted or persuaded of Him; they will reject Him. The will of the flesh is not involved, as John made very clear early (Jn 1:13). Preaching only has value to those already born again by the power of God. Thus I Cor 2:1-5 dumbs down the message to reduce it to the power of God. God can manipulate minds allowing their choice (Is 10:5-15; Rev 17:17).

How was Saul drawn to Christ? By pricking? Blindness? Revelation? But all these things only work on a regenerate man, thus the need to rightly divide.

Some use Solomon’s Song 1:4 ever so eloquently, but there was no enmity between the two lovers like there is between Jesus Christ and rebel sinners.

Some use Hosea 11:4 eloquently, but His drawing did not work, as judgment came; He did all possible for his vineyard, but He got wild grapes (Is 5:1-7).

Using the O.T. for N.T. doctrine is like Presbyterians using it for sprinkling.

There is a work of revelation that follows regeneration (Eph 1:17; 3:14-19). There is persuasive moving by Christ, but after regeneration (II Co 5:14-15)! God works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil 2:12-13), and this work must be the same as or closely connected to regeneration.

This work of God the Father (and of Christ and the Spirit) is without man’s aid. There are no ordinances or sacraments to direct God’s power to regenerate.

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience – already born again (I Pe 3:21). As we have said more than ponce: God makes the change, if a babe in Elisabeth’s womb or a thief on a cross.

Jesus drawing all men to Himself later in John is gathering the elect (Jn 12:32).

1. First, you know that none are drawn to Christ by His crucifixion cross, for the preaching of the cross is seen as foolish by those perishing (I Cor 1:18).
2. Second, you know Jesus crucified is fully and only offensive to natural men.
3. Third, you know that by His death Jesus legally saved all elect for heaven.
4. Jesus came to gather the elect (Ge 49:10; Jn 10:16; 11:52; Ep 1:10; He 2:13).

"And I will raise him up at the last day."

Another completely different subject for another day. But our Lord is clear that the resurrection of our bodies takes place on the last day~meaning the last day of this world as we know it.

 

[Arial]

I know why. I think it is you who don't.

I do know why because He does tell us. You evidently do not believe Him when He does, because the answer He gives is not to your liking?

 

[JIM]

Not a single one of them was faithful, not even David, though David was called the apple of His eye. The difference was David's heart---same as it is with the believer of today. God can regenerate a heart anytime, anywhere, with anyone. The difference in David's sins---for which he dearly paid and the nation paid since he was their king---is that David loved God, loved the commandments, and the thing he never did was go after other gods.

If God had expected that any sinful man could obey perfectly there would not have been temporary covering as redemption moved forward. And if any could be perfectly righteous, we would all be on our own----no atonement that destroyed sin and death.

God can regenerate a heart anytime, anywhere, with anyone. So why doesn't He?

 

[JIM]

I do know why because He does tell us. You evidently do not believe Him when He does, because the answer He gives is not to your liking?

Nah, that one is back on you.

 

[Arial]

Nah, that one is back on you.

Have you not noticed how the apostles in their letters refer to believers as the chosen, the elect, or the called of God. Why is that?

 

[Arial]

God can regenerate a heart anytime, anywhere, with anyone. So why doesn't He?

Because according to the pleasure of His will and for His own purposes in redemption He gets to choose who the Son will die for, and He gives them to Him. He didn't send His Son on an uncertain, and wobbly mission but a definite one.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.'"

That pretty much undoes the theory that faith comes first and then regeneration.

 

[JIM]

The impossibility of man ever believing on His Son is solved by God’s grace. Here the key word is except – elsewhere it is the inspired disjunctive but (Rom 5:8; 6:17; I Cor 1:27; 3:7; Gal 1:15; Eph 2:4; II Thess 2:13; Tit 3:4). God must intervene, because man’s inability is beyond his own help (6:44). God makes all the difference – every bit of it – and shall get all the praise.

God has intervened. It is called the Bible. God spent nearly 2500 years demonstrated in and then writing about it through the Prophets by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Except, unless and until, a man is born again, he cannot see Christ (John 3:3,5).

A really bad interpretation of the word see. To see the kingdom, to enter the kingdom is to participate in the kingdom, to be members of the kingdom.

This explanation and condemnation of the audience is repeated (6:44, 65). The will of the flesh or will of man has no role, only the Spirit (Jn 1:13; 3:8).

Of course man has a role. He who receives Jesus, he who believes in his name, he is one given the right to become children of God (John 1:12)

There is no need to find shades of difference between drawing and regeneration. Without regeneration, no drawing will work, even by the Spirit (I Cor 2:14).

The entire second chapter of 1 Corinthians is Paul's description and defense of his own divinely inspired revelation. He (and the other prophets and apostles of God) is the spiritual person in that chapter. That is not you or mw.

Jesus denied even the most dramatic events as having no value (Luke 16:31).

The obvious implication from that verse is that if they do hear Moses and the Prophets they can be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.

Please note: :Without God’s persuading operation, regeneration may give life without conversion (Gal 1:15-16 cp I Tim 1:12 cp Acts 9:6 cp Rom 11:28). Well, actually it does every time, because no one person is fully converted in every area of their life.

I am not going to discuss conversion with you. We don't agree with the definition and meaning. Besides neither the word nor the concept appears in any of those verses.

And I must stop for now, I have an appointment that I must keep. Perhaps, I will return to this later. No guarantees though.

 

[JIM]

Have you not noticed how the apostles in their letters refer to believers as the chosen, the elect, or the called of God. Why is that?

Because they were believers.

 

[JIM]

Because according to the pleasure of His will and for His own purposes in redemption He gets to choose who the Son will die for, and He gives them to Him. He didn't send His Son on an uncertain, and wobbly mission but a definite one.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.'"

That pretty much undoes the theory that faith comes first and then regeneration.

It says not one word about faith in that passage.

Gotta go now.

 

[CrowCross]

So why doesn't He?

Should God save everyone?

 

[Arial]

It says not one word about faith in that passage.

Gotta go now.

That is because faith comes after regeneration, as a result of regeneration and Jesus is talking about the new birth, not faith. Could you deal with what I said in that post now?

 

[Arial]

Because they were believers.

Oh right. I forgot. God had to learn who would choose Him and then because they were so good and wise, He elected them. I forgot. God chose us because we first chose Him.

 

[Carbon]

God can regenerate a heart anytime, anywhere, with anyone. So why doesn't He?

Why dosent He? Really Jim?

 

[Carbon]

It says not one word about faith in that passage.

Gotta go now.

 

[Carbon]

Should God save everyone?

Maybe he thinks so.