Decisional Regeneration vs. Divine Regeneration

[ShepherdsPie]

@ShepherdsPie

The natural man cannot exercise saving faith since he cannot see the kingdom of God and its treasures, and much less can he appreciate the same.

Elect witnessing to Elect

 

[Carbon]

Elect witnessing to Elect

The elect do not know who the elect are.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

The elect do not know who the elect are.

Right!

 

[JIM]

So, it's based on personal feelings or tastes? Subjective receptivity? So, someone just needs to hit you with the gospel at the right time and way? If you're in a good mood at the time, the chances are better.

In some cases, I guess you could call it that.

It is through the Holy Spirit regenerating a lost sinner, once dead but made alive, then one comes to Him - conversion.

You have it backward. Colossians 2 says that it is through faith that one was once dead but made alive. That clearly says that it is those who believe in God, those who have faith, that are regenerated. Ephesians 2 says the same thing. It is by grace through faith.

Regeneration is conversion; converted from a lost sinner to a saved saint.

 

[Arial]

Dead in your trespasses and sins and then made alive is regeneration. Regeneration is the first step in being sanctified.

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

OK. You do know the difference. Now let's go back to posts #23 and your response post #30. We should not leave that hanging and not dealt with.

In post #21 you gave the interpretation of John 6:44-45 and John 6:66-71 as meaning that God did not grant them to come to Jesus because they didn't believe.

You did this without making use of what was said before the verses you interpreted, which was:

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

This states that the ones that come to him are those the Father gives him. Which is opposed to your interpretation. This says they come to him because the Father is giving them to Jesus. So how do you justify the apparent contradiction with you interpretation?

Another set of scriptures from John 10 were given that agrees with those who believe are those the Father is giving to him.

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are o

In fact it explicitly states that only his sheep who the Father has given to him, hear his voice and follow him. How do you justify these two sets of scriptures with your interpretation of John 6:66-71.

 

[Arial]

I guess I don't understand your question. Are you asking who are His sheep?

See post #45.

 

[Carbon]

In some cases, I guess you could call it that.

Haha, oh I see.

In some cases.

You have it backward. Colossians 2 says that it is through faith that one was once dead but made alive. That clearly says that it is those who believe in God, those who have faith, that are regenerated. Ephesians 2 says the same thing. It is by grace through faith.

Regeneration is conversion; converted from a lost sinner to a saved saint.

You have it backward, scripture does not teach faith is the cause of regeneration. Try again.

 

[Carbon]

OK. You do know the difference. Now let's go back to posts #23 and your response post #30. We should not leave that hanging and not dealt with.

In post #21 you gave the interpretation of John 6:44-45 and John 6:66-71 as meaning that God did not grant them to come to Jesus because they didn't believe.

You did this without making use of what was said before the verses you interpreted, which was:

This states that the ones that come to him are those the Father gives him. Which is opposed to your interpretation. This says they come to him because the Father is giving them to Jesus. So how do you justify the apparent contradiction with you interpretation?

Another set of scriptures from John 10 were given that agrees with those who believe are those the Father is giving to him.

In fact it explicitly states that only his sheep who the Father has given to him, hear his voice and follow him. How do you justify these two sets of scriptures with your interpretation of John 6:66-71.

Amen!

 

[JIM]

I believe it is impossible that the external call by itself can produce faith in the heart of a natural man.

Isn't that what John 6:45 and Romans 10:13-21 says?

 

[Carbon]

Isn't that what John 6:45 and Romans 10:13-21 says?

No, it's not. I know that's what you would like them to say.

 

[JIM]

Haha, oh I see.

In some cases.

You have it backward, scripture does not teach faith is the cause of regeneration. Try again.

And scripture does not teach that regeneration is the cause of faith. Try again

God regenerates those who believe. That is what through faith means.

 

[Arial]

That is a really perverse view of what it means to be dead in trespasses and sins. A person dead in trespasses and sins can walk, run, eat, drink, think, speak, learn from his parents, schoolteachers, and college professors. Many become intellectual giants. All of that and you think that God is incapable of communicating with him in any way whatsoever such that he is capable of understanding. Truly amazing to think so little of God's ability.

Watch the language.

Dead in our trespasses and sins is a reference to mankind's inability to save himself from sin. He is doomed in his sinful condition to the wrath of God and the life that he is living in his body is not life at all but a living death. The comparison of death and life in this passage is just that. One is death, but God---- makes the elect alive in Christ who is life. In John 3 we this expressed as the new birth.

 

[Carbon]

And scripture does not teach that regeneration is the cause of faith. Try again

Sure it does.

God regenerates those who believe. That is what through faith means.

Scripture does not teach your humanistic religion.

 

[Carbon]

And scripture does not teach that regeneration is the cause of faith. Try again

God regenerates those who believe. That is what through faith means.

You see Jim, humanism teaches that all the natural man needs is to hear the word. Then he can "choose" to believe or not. Think about how silly that is.

Illumination alone is not enough to enable men to believe. The natural enmity against God must be done away with if we are to entrust ourselves to Christ.

 

[Josheb]

I understand your point...many people who answer the "alter call' are responding on pure emotion as it often only last several days.

Which has absolutely no salvific value at all..... but it is difficult to convince those who think otherwise.

But, some people are actually saved during this "process". That is the Holy Spirit uses the message of the evangelist and changes ones heart...regenerates them...and in response to that the person responds to the alter call.

That would be the case for me. Although for many years as a volitionlist I thought the experience was my own doing (at least synergistically) and only upon further reading and contemplation of God's word did I realize that was not the case. God had been preparing me form years, even since my birth, for that moment, and it was He that moved me to stand, confess, and believe. Praise God!

 

[Carbon]

You see Jim, humanism teaches that all the natural man needs is to hear the word. Then he can "choose" to believe or not. Think about how silly that is.

Illumination alone is not enough to enable men to believe. The natural enmity against God must be done away with if we are to entrust ourselves to Christ.

Removing the natural enmity is done by the regenerating operation of the Spirit which softens the heart and quickens the will as well as enlightens the mind.

 

[Carbon]

Which has absolutely no salvific value at all..... but it is difficult to convince those who think otherwise.

So true.

 

[Carbon]

That would be the case for me. Although for many years as a volitionlist I thought the experience was my own doing (at least synergistically) and only upon further reading and contemplation of God's word did I realize that was not the case. God had been preparing me form years, even since my birth, for that moment, and it was He that moved me to stand, confess, and believe. Praise God!

Amen!

 

[JIM]

Watch the language.

Dead in our trespasses and sins is a reference to mankind's inability to save himself from sin. He is doomed in his sinful condition to the wrath of God and the life that he is living in his body is not life at all but a living death. The comparison of death and life in this passage is just that. One is death, but God---- makes the elect alive in Christ who is life. In John 3 we this expressed as the new birth.

It has nothing to do with whether or not one can save himself. That is the standard old Calvinist strawman. Dead in trespasses and sins is a condition of the spirit due to the trespasses and sins committed by the person. The question that must be answered then is what happens to the person who is made alive. What does that mean? Colossians 2:13 says it means God "having forgiven us all our trespasses". I don't know anyone who thinks anyone has the ability to forgive his own trespasses and sins and thus make himself alive.

 

[Carbon]

And scripture does not teach that regeneration is the cause of faith. Try again

God regenerates those who believe. That is what through faith means.

According to you then, faith is nothing more than a wish. It's amazing that some believe men can just decide to believe.