Created For DESTRUCTION!

[brightfame52]

For your doctrine, sure. Not mine.

So, are you one of them born to it?

My doctrine is the Truth

 

[Josheb]

Confusing angel with celestial.

Nope. Not even a little.

 

[Josheb]

True.
True.
Scripture doesn't say it, nor do I.
True again.
True again.
And one more true.

So, I'm correct on all six points but somehow confusing angel with celestial.

I'm not sure who is saying that men are angels..

Then better attention should be paid to the posts.

...and we have the same kind of bodies now on earth. At least not yet.

Scripture says otherwise.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The body raised is not the same as the body buried.

The man Christ Jesus has the same kind of eternal spiritual body as all angels...

Got scripture for that?

...and so will them that are resurrected in His likeness.

Got scripture for that?

Also, angels can come to earth in the form of men and women.

Yes, but they were not men.

...including eating and drinking, but I trust no more sex.

"no more sex"? Then the Nephilim are not angels.

 

[Josheb]

Scripture doesn't say it, nor do I. But Scripture does say angels have hearts to love or lust against God, the same as men and women on earth.

We're not talking about hearts. We're talking about Nephilim.

I'm not sure who is saying that men are angels....

All angels in the Bible are men, that can eat and drink and have intercourse with people.

I have found it is impossible to have a cogent and coherent conversation with those who contradict their own posts. I'll be moving on now. Thank you for your time.

 

[brightfame52]

The condemnation they were ordained to in Jude 1:4 is described in Vs 13 Jude 1:13

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Now some may object to the meaning of the word ordained in Jude 1:4, because the word also means:

a) I write previously (aforetime); I write above (already), (b) I depict or portray openly, (c) I designate beforehand.

Simply to write beforehand . Well, ok then, who was it written by ? Who wrote here Rev 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Obviously names were written in the book of life Rev 20:15, so who wrote them if not God ? Or if we say men wrote of the condemnation of Jude 1:4, it would have been written by inspiration of God, they were moved by the Holy Ghost, who is God, so that which was written was the Mind of God, the Purpose of God, which is Eternal !

 

[Ghada]

So, I'm correct on all six points but somehow confusing angel with celestial.

I showed how.

Then better attention should be paid to the posts.

Scripture says otherwise.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The body raised is not the same as the body buried.

True. Natural mortal flesh and blood is not immortal resurrected flesh and bones.

Got scripture for that?

They are all quickened immortal spiritual bodies.

Yes, but they were not men.

True. That's what the form of men means.

"no more sex"? Then the Nephilim are not angels.

No, they were the offspring of angels that sinned with women on earth.

Mar 12:25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

And angels don't have sex and marry in heaven. They were not in heaven, when on earth producing giant nephilim.

Teaching Scripture is easy by just saying what Scripture says, but it does take enough discipline to teach exactly what Scripture says.

Neh 8:8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

It's a matter of faith, that each and every word of Scripture is honored from God.

Mat 24:35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

[Ghada]

We're not talking about hearts.

God is with both angels and men.

We're talking about Nephilim.

I'm talking about the angels that prodcued them on earth by women.

And giants had hearts too. Physical like all natural creatures on earth,

Gen 6:5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And also spiritual evil ones like all evil angels and men.

I have found it is impossible to have a cogent and coherent conversation with those who contradict their own posts. I'll be moving on now. Thank you for your time.

Parting is such sweet sorrow with some, and such sour grapes with others...

 

[Josheb]

I showed how.

No, you didn't. An imaginative fantasy was posted but it didn't get anywhere near a rational use of scripture.

And angels don't have sex and marry in heaven.

Angels don't have sex at all, as far as we know and if they do then they produce ONLY according to their kind, and not with creatures of another kind.

They were not in heaven, when on earth producing giant nephilim.

No, they were not.

Teaching Scripture is easy by just saying what Scripture says, but it does take enough discipline to teach exactly what Scripture says.

And I, unlike you, posted scripture to support every word I posted. There is no scripture stating, "Angels were on earth producing giant Nephilim." None. The entire premise is manufactured from eisegetic inference that directly contradicts many scriptures, NOT well-rendered scripture.


Have you read those articles yet?

 

[brightfame52]

Gods reprobation of men, was deliberate and its active unto the vessels of wrath Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Its deliberate, in that just as a potter deliberately makes a pot for the purpose, He wants it to serve, So God contrived within Himself to make some men for the purpose of destruction.

God is active in that He actually fits them for destruction :

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word fitted katartizō means:

to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust

The word also in the greek is in the passive voice, meaning that they are being fitted for destruction, they are being acted upon, so God is the active primary force.

Some may argue that its in the middle voice, and that would also be correct, because since God has all Power, men cannot but comply with the purpose of God and fit themselves for destruction at the same time, so they are culpable! 3

 

[Ghada]

And I, unlike you, posted scripture to support every word I posted. There is no scripture stating, "Angels were on earth producing giant Nephilim." None. The entire premise is manufactured from eisegetic inference that directly contradicts many scriptures, NOT well-rendered scripture.

No Scripture anywhwere says one way or another. And we know by Scripture, that the giants were produced before the sons of God married the daughters of men.

And so. My interpretation is the angels sinned by producing giants on earth by women, before the sons of God produced men of renown by men's daughters.

There is no angel sex nor marrying in heaven, and there are angels that visit earth as men eating and drinking. If any of them had sex or got drunk, then they sinned on earth, not in heaven.

And they were cast down into hell, not to return to heaven with the faithful angels of God.

 

[Ghada]

Gods reprobation of men, was deliberate and its active unto the vessels of wrath Rom 9:20-22

Only the god of this world reprobates men and women, not the true God of heaven and earth.

Are you one of the prechosen fitted for destruction?

 

[Josheb]

No Scripture anywhwere says one way or another.

Do you think the silence of scripture is important?

And we know by Scripture, that the giants were produced before the sons of God married the daughters of men.

You do understand "sons of God" is a term used form both men and angels, yes?

And so. My interpretation....

And it all boils down to the fact this is your interpretation or, more simply and more honestly, this is your opinion.

There is no angel sex nor marrying in heaven...

There is no angel sex on earth, either. Why is that so difficult for you to acknowledge? You've just acknowledged there is no scripture anywhere that says one way or another (even though that is not true). You, according to your own posts, take the silence of scripture and interpret what is said to mean angels had sex with human women.

And they were cast down into hell, not to return to heaven with the faithful angels of God.

That is only part of what happened. According to Isaiah and Jude they were stripped of their glory and held in bonds of eternal darkness. If ALL that scripture says (and does not say) is compiled then the angels-had-sex-with-men-after-they-fell position is really about sinful, and sinfully dead and enslaved spiritual creatures who were stripped of their glory having sex with sinful human women while bond in bonds of eternal darkness.

And, dear brother, there is scripture somewhere that says heavenly beings cannot have sex with humans while on earth. At least two posters here in this thread have pointed it out. Neither poster comes from the exact same theological orientation, so you've got two Christian brothers coming from two different orientations pointing to scripture and pointing to the same exact scripture for your benefit and their point is ignored.


God made each earthly creature to breed only with its own kind.


Even if angels and humans wanted to breed with each other they cannot do so because God designed each creature to procreate only with its own kind. There's no angel sex in heaven or on earth.

...before the sons of God produced men of renown by men's daughters.

Abel was renown. Abel lived before Genesis 6. So too did Seth, Enosh, Methuselah, Enoch and, technically, Noah was alive when Genesis 6 opens. He had not yet reached "renown" status, but he was already "a righteous man, blameless in his time," who walked with God. That alone made him renown. His faithfulness made him one of eight survivors and that is pretty renown, too. Remember scripture interprets itself and scripture is NOT wholly silent on this matter. I will, respectfully suggest to you Genesis 6:1-2 should be read in the context of what had already been stated at Genesis 4:26.

Genesis 4:26
To Seth, to him also a son was born; and he called his name Enosh. Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD.

Genesis 6:1-2
Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

A huge division occurred between God and man, but God provided offspring that worshiped Him for Adam and Eve. With Seth men began to call upon the name of the Lord. Not all men. Just some. At that point there were sons of God and what we might call sons of sin, or sons of Adam, or sons not of God. Huge advances in civilization occurred with men creating music, learning how to forge bronze and iron, and build cities. During this time not all men called upon the LORD. Idols were also invented. The sons of men began to wed women who were not sons of God or from the sons of God. They were women from the sons and wives of other gods, gods other than the Lord. The exact same thing happened centuries later when Jews intermarried with Samaritans. They adulterated the Hebrew/Jewish bloodline and God disdained it. It has nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with idolatry and the worship of other gods. Every single time one of God's people is religiously unfaithful God acts violently. The Hebrews who kept gold idols from the spoils were punished. Compare this to what happened with Joseph in Egypt. Joseph married an Egyptian woman, the daughter of an Egyptian (pagan) priest and sired two sons with her BUT he raised them to call upon the LORD and, as a consequence, his two boys (Manasseh and Ephraim) are listed among the twelve tribes.

All Genesis 6:1-2 is saying is that godly men began to act ungodly, and they pursued women who did not call upon the Lord, wed them, and produced religiously adulterated progeny. The eventual result was...

Genesis 6:5-6
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorrowful that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Bad company corrupts good character.

No aliens. No sinful angels stripped of their glory having sex with sinful women while the angels are bound in darkness. Just otherwise ordinary godly men choosing to allow their religious purity to be adulterated. God wiped everyone off the planet (except for eight people) but that did not solve the problem because within one growing season Noah, that guy who'd previously called upon the LORD got drunk, passed out, and his son sodomized him.

Sin reared its ugly head almost immediately again - among men and women who'd previously been saved from wrath and catastrophe by God.

That is the point of those chapters! It wouldn't matter how much God scrubbed the earth clean, sign reigns over everyone it infects. God alone is sovereign over sin. Cain killed Abel. Seth calls upon God. Godly men mate with ungodly women. The whole world decays and rots.

The angels who did not keep their proper abode were held in bonds of eternal darkness for the day of judgment - a fiery judgment, not a watery one.

2 Peter 2:4-5
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly....

All the ungodly were destroyed by the flood. Peter says the angels were separate/separated from the humans. They were held in darkness (Peter and Jude confirm one another) and reserved for judgment. Ungodly humans (males and females), on the other hand, were all destroyed in the flood. After that God promised never to use that method again. Now fiery destruction awaits both sinful angels and sinful humans.

 

[Ghada]

Do you think the silence of scripture is important?

Only the silence of all Scripture. Scripture not a doctrine or prophecy expressly, is does not rule out the revelation of Scripture otherwise. For example, Scripture never expressly says:

Jesus Christ is God the Son, and the Lord will reign standing upon the earth for a thousand years.

Doctrine and prophecy of Christ can be proven by taking all Scriptures together for a sensible conclusion, even if not expressly said in any one Scripture:

Neh 8:8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

You do understand "sons of God" is a term used form both men and angels, yes?

Yes. Some produced giants on the earth, before the sons of God produced heroes among men, by cute and randy daughters of men.

And it all boils down to the fact this is your interpretation

True. I base it on what Scripture does expressly say, which is ignored by other interpretations.

There is no angel sex on earth, either. Why is that so difficult for you to acknowledge?

I acknowledge your personal declaration, just not as being Scripture.

That is only part of what happened. According to Isaiah and Jude they were stripped of their glory and held in bonds of eternal darkness.

True. For they sinned.

If ALL that scripture says (and does not say) is compiled then the angels-had-sex-with-men-after-they-fell position is really about sinful, and sinfully dead and enslaved spiritual creatures who were stripped of their glory having sex with sinful human women while bond in bonds of eternal darkness.

The conclusion I draw from Scripture about it, without specifically saying so, is that they had sex with women before being cast into hell and held with chains. Their sin for being cast down was sex with women.

And, dear brother, there is scripture somewhere that says heavenly beings cannot have sex with humans while on earth.

Only not in heaven.

At least two posters here in this thread have pointed it out. Neither poster comes from the exact same theological orientation, so you've got two Christian brothers coming from two different orientations pointing to scripture and pointing to the same exact scripture for your benefit and their point is ignored.

Disagreement with reasons given, is not ignoring something, but reasonable disagreement with it.

God made each earthly creature to breed only with its own kind.

True. But that natural use of sex is abandoned by unnatural sex, whether men with men, women with women, men with sheep, women with dogs, or women with angels.

And of course, the argument is not about the natural use of sex, but about unnatural sex.

Even if angels and humans wanted to breed with each other they cannot do so

So you declare again. Angels in natural form on earth can eat and drink with men and women. Nothing says they are eunuchs, that can't have sex.

There's no angel sex in heaven or on earth.

The only place Jesus specifically speaks of pertaining to sex and marriage, is in Heaven, whether of faithful angels or of resurrected men and women.

Abel was renown.

Abel is recorded as righteous only. Not about being one of the renowned, which is after there were giants on the earth, which is after sons of God came to daughters of men.

He had not yet reached "renown" status, but he was already "a righteous man, blameless in his time," who walked with God.

Scripture never says either of these men were renowned among men. The only record of renowned men in Genesis, were offspring of sons of God with daughters of men.

And it is against doctrine of Christ to speak of the righteous and godly of the LORD, as being favorably renowned among the ungodly, but rather only persecuted. Which first began with Abel being killed by Cain, before any such renown of ungodly men began to take place on earth.

That alone made him renown.

In your mind only.

His faithfulness made him one of eight survivors and that is pretty renown, too.

The renown was before the flood.

I will, respectfully suggest to you Genesis 6:1-2 should be read in the context of what had already been stated at Genesis 4:26.
Genesis 4:26
To Seth, to him also a son was born; and he called his name Enosh. Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD.

True. This shows there was an increase in beleiving sons of God on earth. Of whom many forsook their godliness to chase unbelieving, yet unbelievably hot female tail.

Genesis 6:1-2
Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

Gen 6:4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Now you are purposely leaving out Scripture. Your comment about Scripture interpeting itself, is hollow.

At that point there were sons of God and what we might call sons of sin, or sons of Adam, or sons not of God.

All babes in the womb are natural offspring of Adam, by way of Noah.

However, by faith or unbelief, to do good or evil, we are sons of God or children of the devil.

The exact same thing happened centuries later when Jews intermarried with Samaritans.

And yet the Samaritan is honored by Jesus as the good example of neighborliness.

In Scripture, doing good is more honored by God than any specific bloodline. And of course in Acts 17, all men are now of the same one blood of Adam, through Noah.

They adulterated the Hebrew/Jewish bloodline and God disdained it.

Oh boy. True Jew blood doctrine. No better than true Aryan blood doctrine.

All Genesis 6:1-2 is saying is that godly men began to act ungodly, and they pursued women who did not call upon the Lord, wed them, and produced religiously adulterated progeny.

True. I'll accept the language of it. They produced great heroes among men, but without faith toward the LORD.

Bad company corrupts good character.

True. But Bad Company did produce from pretty good songs.

No aliens.

Just giants beforehand.

No sinful angels stripped of their glory

Not yet recorded as such in Genesis. When it is recorded in Scripture, no specific date is given, however by comparison and unity of Scripture, the time of the sinful angels being punished, is the same as that the wicked men.

2Pe 2:4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

The time of the sinning angels not being spared from being cast into hell, is in the same breath of Scripture as the old world not being spared from the flood.

By this record, and that of Jude's, we have enough revelation to sensibly conclude, that the angels sinned on earth to produce giants, and were punished without sparing along with the renowned ungodly heroes, that were latter produced on earthby unfaithful sons of God and daughters of men.

 

[Ghada]

having sex with sinful women while the angels are bound in darkness.

Before.

Just otherwise ordinary godly men choosing to allow their religious purity to be adulterated.

After giants on the earth

God wiped everyone off the planet (except for eight people) but that did not solve the problem because within one growing season Noah, that guy who'd previously called upon the LORD got drunk, passed out, and his son sodomized him.

Drunkenness was never wise, but not a transgression of law, until the law of Christ in the NT.

And don't go to harsh on old Noah, who just went through some pretty 'cataclysmic' stuff, and was now the oldest remaining man alive on earth, as well as the only husband and father on earth to make a whole new beginning.

It's like criticising Job for getting a bit complainy, after losing everything he had built righteously, as well as his family and good health.

And of course Noah and Job are ranked among the top three righteous with God, along with Daniel.

Sin reared its ugly head almost immediately again - among men and women who'd previously been saved from wrath and catastrophe by God.

By one son. The Bible doesn't speak of mass evil on earth again, until the the crucifixion of Jesus on a cross, and the second coming of the Lord Jesus to earth. Which also be after His milenium expires.

That is the point of those chapters! It wouldn't matter how much God scrubbed the earth clean, sign reigns over everyone it infects.

True, but not everyone on earth, or at least not continually with the exception of 7 souls.

God alone is sovereign over sin.

And those to whom God grants repentance from sinning for His Son Jesus' sake.

Cain killed Abel. Seth calls upon God. Godly men mate with ungodly women. The whole world decays and rots.

True. Excepting 7 souls.

The angels who did not keep their proper abode were held in bonds of eternal darkness for the day of judgment - a fiery judgment, not a watery one.

True. After they sinned on earth, and not in their abode of heaven like Lucifer did.

Lucifer sinned in heaven, but his following angels are revealed to sin elsewhere, than their first estate in heaven.

2 Peter 2:4-5
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly....

All the ungodly were destroyed by the flood.

Save one son.

Peter says the angels were separate/separated from the humans.

They all were before the angels abode on earth to sin.

They were held in darkness

After they sinned aboding on earth, and still are.

After that God promised never to use that method again. Now fiery destruction awaits both sinful angels and sinful humans.

True. The LOF.

 

[Mr GLee]

And yet the latter giants are huge in size.

The conclusion I draw from Scripture about it, without specifically saying so, is that they had sex with women before being cast into hell and held with chains. Their sin for being cast down was sex with women.

The doctrine is believers (sons of God) are not to be unevenly yoked. with unbelievers After the flood thier rebellion's continued . The commandment remains the same

Not outer limits or one step beyond

 

[Josheb]

Only the silence of all Scripture.

And in this case of, "Angels were on earth producing giant Nephilim," you have stated, "No Scripture anywhere says one way or another." That means the position, angels produced the giant Nephilim is not supported by scripture. Neither is angels did not produce giant Nephilim. There is no scripture anywhere that says one way or the other.

The position angels produced giant Nephilim on earth is, therefore, built entirely on inference. Since it is NOT something scripture states, then it can only be something inferred by a certain interpretation (as you put it) of scripture.

The questions then become...

• Why hold a view that can be made ONLY by inference?
• Why hold a view that can be obtained ONLY by an inferential reading of scripture based on a particular interpretation of selected scriptures?

Is that the way you believe our beliefs should be formed? Should they be formed ONLY by inference? Should they be formed by ONLY inference? Can you see the problem here?

My interpretation is the angels sinned by producing giants on earth by women, before the sons of God produced men of renown by men's daughters.

The men of renown were men.

You said scripture didn't say anything one way or another but scripture states the men of renown were men, not angels and not hybrids. Scripture does say something, and it says it one way and NOT the other. one way.

Let's take another look at that Genesis 6 passage...

Genesis 6:1-7
Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless, his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorrowful that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

There, as we can objectively see and repeatedly verify as often as we like, are ten explicit references to men and humans in the passage. We can also objectively observe and repeatedly verify there is absolutely no explicit mention whatsoever of any angels (on earth or anywhere else). The idea that angels procreated with human females is based entirely on a specific interpretation of three words: "...sons of God," and those three words are assumed to mean "fallen angels," when there is absolutely no mention of fallen angels (demons) ANYWHERE in the specified passage. In point of fact, there is no mention of fallen angels or demons anywhere in the entire chapter! Likewise, there is no mention of fallen angels in chapter 5 or chapter 7. Complete silence from scripture regarding fallen angels having sex with men but for some reason it is okay to read those three words as a phrase specifically referring to fallen angels.

Is a fallen angel a son of God?

We know righteous angels can be called sons of God and we know godly men and women can be called sons of God. Is there any place in the Bible where demons are called sons of God? No! Do you need me to go through the scriptures identifying the sons of God? Do you need me to go through scripture identifying the sons of the adversary or sons of the evil one? If so, then just let me know and I will gladly do so. Remember: demons are not sons of God. Conversely, sons of God are not demons. At best we might say the fallen angels had at one point been sons of God but they lost any claim of sonship when the sinned. They are no longer sons. Scripture is, therefore NOT silent. Scripture does, in fact, speak to this interpretation and it speaks decidedly one way and NOT the other.

The phrase "sons of God" occurs only ten times in the entire Bible and not once does it ever refer to Satan or any other fallen angel. In fact, on one occasion scripture mentions the sons of God and Satan separately...

Job 1:6-7
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."

Satan is not included among the sons of God; he's mentioned in addition to the sons of God AND he comes from the earth. Satan is not a son of God. Peter tells us why he is roaming the earth.

1 Peter 5:8
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Satan is a carrion eater. Can he "devour" servants of God? Not without God's consent, according to the implications of Job 1 and Luke 22:31. I reiterate: Satan is a carrion eater. He is a scavenger, an unclean creature. When God declared the animals, He allowed for food He listed the scavengers (birds, land animals, and birds) that were scavengers, animals that ate other dead animals, as unclean and forbidden. That is what Satan is. He and the other fallen angels are unclean creatures. I have little doubt they would like to copulate with anything they can find - assuming they have sex at all - but they are not permitted by God to have sex with humans (see the aforementioned Genesis 1 texts) and most definitely not the daughters of God.


You have agreed the utter silence of scripture is important and stated scripture is utterly silent on this matter (which is incorrect, but I'm simply working with what you have posted). Despite the utter silence, one three-word phrase "sons of God" is interpreted to mean "fallen angels on earth," even though none of the other nine mentions of "sons of God" found elsewhere in the Bible refer to fallen angels. In other words, what is stated is somehow made to say something it does not actually state. You do understand the difference between "state," and "say," yes?

Genesis 6:1-7
Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless, his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the fallen angels on earth, demons, followers of Satan came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorrowful that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

That is NOT what the text states.

 

[Josheb]

@Ghada,

Here are the other uses of "sons of God," found in the rest of scripture...

Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Do fallen angels on earth shout for joy?

Luke 20:34-36
Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

Are fallen angels living in eternal bonds of darkness here on earth or in hell sons of the resurrection? We call then "fallen angels" but are they in fact angels any longer?

Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Are fallen angels led by the Spirit of God? Do they follow God?

Romans 8:19
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

Is the anxious longing of creation going to be assuaged by the revealing of fallen angels?

Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Do fallen angels have faith in Jesus?


Fallen angels do not meet ANY of the criteria describing sons of God! I want you to look up all the mentions of "sons of God" yourself and verify what I have posted. See for yourself. See for yourself there is no one single occasion in the entire Bible when the phrase "sons of God" is used to described fallen angels, rebels against God, or demons.

Do you think the silence of scripture is important?

Only the silence of all Scripture.

No Scripture anywhere says one way or another.

All scripture is silent on fallen angels on earth having sex with female humans.

The silence is important.

Scripture is NOT silent on male humans having sex with female humans. Scripture is NOT silent on human sons of God having sex with female humans. Scripture is NOT silent on the human sons of God having sex, or their having sex with daughters of men.

 

[Josheb]

Drunkenness was never wise, but not a transgression of law, until the law of Christ in the NT.

Scripture says otherwise.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

Proverbs 20:21
Wine is a mocker, intoxicating drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.

Proverbs 23:17-21 KJV
Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long. For surely there is an end; and thine expectation shall not be cut off. Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way. Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

Isaiah 5:22 ESV
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink...

Hosea 4:11
Harlotry, wine and new wine take away the understanding.

Drunkenness is, in fact, a transgression of law and NOT solely a law of Christ.

And don't go to harsh on old Noah, who just went through some pretty 'cataclysmic' stuff, and was now the oldest remaining man alive on earth, as well as the only husband and father on earth to make a whole new beginning.

I see. It's okay to get so drunk someone can rape you, or it's not okay but it's not a sin. It's okay to get that intoxicated if you've gone through some really, really bad stuff.

Have you got scripture for any of that?

I'm not being "harsh." I am simply stating the facts as reported in scripture.

And of course Noah and Job are ranked among the top three righteous with God, along with Daniel.

Yes, and He got so drunk he passed out and then he cursed his son. None of the three men called righteous should be thought to be exempt from the fact ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory and, therefore, to have also been dead in their sin and thereby enslaved.


Fallen angels do not and did not have sex with female humans.

 

[Ghada]

And in this case of, "Angels were on earth producing giant Nephilim," you have stated, "No Scripture anywhere says one way or another." That means the position, angels produced the giant Nephilim is not supported by scripture.

Not the same thing. No Scripture anywhere says "Jesus Christ is God the Son", but it certain is supported by Scripture.

Neither is angels did not produce giant Nephilim. There is no scripture anywhere that says one way or the other.

True. However since our debate, I can now say positively from Scriptural support, that it was the angels that sinned by producing Nephilim on earth, and for that sin, they were not spared but cast into hell at the same time as the flood spared not the wicked: Neither the sinful angels, giants, nor men of renown were spared, but only the faithful angels and righteous Noah and his household.

I've given the Scriuptural support for it. If you ever address my argument of support from them (Unless I've missed it), and can show any error in them, then I'd be glad to see it.

The position angels produced giant Nephilim on earth is, therefore, built entirely on inference. Since it is NOT something scripture states, then it can only be something inferred by a certain interpretation (as you put it) of scripture.

True.

But we do know by Scripture, that the giants were on the earth, before the sons of God committed sin with the daughters of men.

Which you also have not acknowledge, unless I missed it.

The questions then become...

• Why hold a view that can be made ONLY by inference?

Plenty of private interpretations can be held by inference of Scripture, and shared without stating them as proven by Scripture.

That was the case at the beginning of our debate, but in time I've become much more certain for reasons of Scriptural support given.

Is that the way you believe our beliefs should be formed?

Personal beliefs in Scripture are not the problem, but only preaching and prophecying them as Scriptural truth, that is the problem of personalized false ministry.

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The men of renown were men.

Absolutely. The men of renown were men, just like the verse says. And I like this simple manner of teaching Scripture. Just repeat what is written with normal sense.

It's amazing how often that one simple rule is overlooked or dismissed in the zeal of preaching one's own private interpretation, as though it were Scripture itself.

Here are a couple of similar examples:

Mat 1:24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Joseph did not have sex with his wife Mary, until after Jesus was born. And Jesus was her firstborn son, not last.

Rev 19:15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Of the nations Jesus smites at His second coming, He will rule them that are not smitten.

You said scripture didn't say anything one way or another but scripture states the men of renown were men, not angels and not hybrids.

I've already confirmed that the argument is not about who the men of renown were, nor even who produced them. Nor is it about who the giants, nor when beforehand.

The argument is about who produced the giants on earth. And how.

Scripture does say something, and it says it one way and NOT the other. one way.

Let's take another look at that Genesis 6 passage...

The idea that angels procreated with human females is based entirely on a specific interpretation of three words: "...sons of God,"

That's how I used to read it, until needing to read the Scriptures more carefully, in order to rightly answer your argument.

Now I know the argument about angels producing giants on earth, has nothing to do with sons of God later producing men of renown by unbelieving daughters of men.

Thanks for the challenge in this matter; otherwise, I may not have taken this much time on it to correct my own past sloppy reading.

In point of fact, there is no mention of fallen angels or demons anywhere in the entire chapter!

Not in Genesis. All Scripture of the Bible must be, and certain can be used to teach any doctrine and prophecy of Scripture in the Bible.

Example:

1Pe 3:20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

We see all the way in 1 Peter an answer to why the Lord sent the flood in the first place. Not just to wipe out the wicked, but first to save the righteous, as by water.

The ark did not save Noah's household from the flood, so much as by the ark the flood saved the souls from the wicked over all the earth.

Likewise, there is no mention of fallen angels in chapter 5 or chapter 7. Complete silence from scripture regarding fallen angels having sex with men

Who said anything about sex with men?

Is a fallen angel a son of God?

Not a fallen angel that sinned. Neither is a fallen believer that sinned.

Luk 3:38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Adam was the son of God before His transgression.

Gen 3:9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Then without repentance, he was just the sinner man to God. Even as Lucifer was just the angel that sinned.

We know righteous angels can be called sons of God and we know godly men and women can be called sons of God. Is there any place in the Bible where demons are called sons of God?

Who's talking about having sex with men, or about demons?

Satan is not included among the sons of God; he's mentioned in addition to the sons of God AND he comes from the earth. Satan is not a son of God. Peter tells us why he is roaming the earth.

Good point. He was still an angel that sinned, and the first created being sinning against Christ, but not an angelic son of God. He was allowed to enter into the assembling of the sons of God as an enemy, but not as a son. God is not afraid of His enemies, but only only spares destruction until His own appointed time.

 

[Josheb]

Not the same thing.

My regret not being clearer in my last two posts. The evidence has been presented and proved the case. Changing the subject or appealing to the doctrine of the Trinity as a comparative example is facile and will be ignored. I am moving on and won't be spending any more time or effort on this digression.