A Question for the Calvinist

[Arial]

Jesus, the son of Mary, longed for it...

The Parable of the Fig Tree; the Landlord longed for the Fig Tree be cut down and Burned. But the Gardener longed to Dung the Tree for a year. God got what he longed for; to Dung the Tree. God didn't get what he longed for; he longed for fruit, he longed for the tree to be cut and burned...

The Reprobate are not more powerful than God...

This parable of Luke 13:6-9 was not told in a vacuum. It is directly connected to 13:1-5. This concerns a historical event of the tower of Siloam where the tower fell and killed 18 Galileans. The crowd was speculating about this according to an embedded belief that tragedy and misfortune were a result of divine punishment for sin. Jesus disavows that position by telling them that without repentance all are headed for judgement.

The parable of the fruitless fig tree is directed at Israel, the fact that they had not produced the fruit they were meant to produce and deserved to be cut down. The gardener and the three years would be an allusion to Christ's ministry in Israel, at the end of which, if the fruit of repentance and their purpose of taking the message, "There is one God and no other gods and only the true and living God is to be worshiped." to the pagan world (revealing to the pagans what God had revealed of himself to Israel)then they would be cut off. Which, of course is what happened, when as a nation, they rejected Christ.

It isn't about compassion, it is about the work of Christ.

 

[Arial]

I have thought sometimes a person can be more than one type of ground, or maybe some just need more watering, applied at different stages of life is the better way to think of it.

That is how I saw that parable---before I was Reformed. I can remember saying in a Bible study where that parable was being discussed. "I have at different times been each kind of soil, and back and forth."

And that would be true if that is what Jesus was addressing, but it wasn't. In verse 19 he tells us that this seed is the word of the kingdom. What the word of the gospel does when it goes out, and it is apparent that it goes out to all without discrimination, even the reprobate. It either lands on bad soil or good soil. What follows is two more parables about the kingdom of God.

So, in the parable of the sower Jesus is actually expressing both divine election and the working of God in the elect, guaranteeing fruit will be produced.

The soil is the heart. It is God who prepares the soil to receive the seed.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The soil is the heart. It is God who prepares the soil to receive the seed.

Yes. So how am I saying something different?

Did you not hear Jesus died on the cross before you were saved? I don't know how I'm saying or thinking it differently.

Or are you saying what is being discussed in the parable isn't the Gospel message going forth?

If it isn't talking about the Gospel what is it talking about that falls on everyone?

The Kingdom itself? Commands, distinctives and everything then?

 

[Arial]

Yes. So how am I saying something different?

I am simply saying that as Christians we do not start as one kind of soil, and become another type of soil, or fluctuate between types of soil. Which is what I thought you were saying. That sometimes it seems to you as though you do. If I am mistaken in what you were saying, I apologize.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I am simply saying that as Christians we do not start as one kind of soil, and become another type of soil, or fluctuate between types of soil. Which is what I thought you were saying. That sometimes it seems to you as though you do. If I am mistaken in what you were saying, I apologize.

Well, that was why I tried to clarify it better by making sure to say

"maybe some just need more watering, applied at different stages of life is the better way to think of it.'

“The seed is the word of God.”
—Luke 8:11

The reason I said what I did was because we heard the word of God and at least something that might have shared similar words as the Gospel

 

[Carbon]

The Rocky, Weedy and Trodden Soils are Reprobates...

And none of them are saved.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Whenever I hear a 'do this' in order to be saved, my default challenge is "How much of the 'do' must I 'do' before I am accepted in the beloved"?

Precisely spot on. How much must one do, is the key question. Christ says perfection without a blemish of sin. One must be perfect as His Father is perfect (Matt. 5:48). Legalists will say, see, I told it's by works. What they fail to see though, is that this ship has sailed for sinners. The Law only brings knowledge of sin for sinners. Which is why they need a Redeemer who will redeem them from the Law (Gal. 3).

But they do have one thing correct. We are saved by works of the Law. But only perfect obedience to the Law commands will fulfill it. And the only works or obedience is that of Christ who came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it and redeem us from the curse of the Law. By imputing His righteousness that He merited by Law keeping which now the sinner is clothed with through Faith Alone. They now stand before God as righteous men and women by an alien declaration or forensic righteousness that doesn't make a sinner righteous but that through Faith in God who justifies the ungodly, their Faith in God and His promise is counted as righteous.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Amen! And even if it is only one 'to-do', it makes Salvation not entirely of Grace.

Exactly we must be diligent to discern false teachers who pervert the Gospel by turning it into Law. These false teaching are cunning saying it's all of Grace, "BUT" you must first move into the space of grace for it to be effective. Or that you must first cooperate with Grace for it to be sufficient to saved.​

 

[Eleanor]

Precisely spot on. How much must one do, is the key question. Christ says perfection without a blemish of sin. One must be perfect as His Father is perfect (Matt. 5:48). Legalists will say, see, I told it's by works. What they fail to see though, is that this ship has sailed for sinners. The Law only brings knowledge of sin for sinners. Which is why they need a Redeemer who will redeem them from the Law (Gal. 3).

But they do have one thing correct. We are saved by works of the Law. ​

Actually, they do not have that thing correct.

Salvation has never been by works of the law, it has always been by faith (Ge 15:5-6),
faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16.)

The law was given simply to reveal sin (Ro 3:20).

But only perfect obedience to the Law commands will fulfill it. And the only works or obedience is that of Christ who came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it and redeem us from the curse of the Law. By imputing His righteousness that He merited by Law keeping which now the sinner is clothed with through Faith Alone. They now stand before God as righteous men and women by an alien declaration or forensic righteousness that doesn't make a sinner righteous but that through Faith in God who justifies the ungodly, their Faith in God and His promise is counted as righteous.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Actually, they do not have that thing correct.

Well, Eleanor, it's the doers of the Law that will be justified.

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.

But sinners cannot do the Law because of their original/personal sins that rendered an indictment of quilt and sentence of condemnation. This is what they do not grasp, understand or haven't heard or just could not understand.

But for the sake of the elect the second Adam steps in and fulfills the Law to be declared righteous, and it's this righteousness of Christ that is imputed to sinners who believe. So, in essence we are justified because of Christ and His finished works.

 

[Eleanor]

Well, Eleanor, it's the doers of the Law that will be justified.

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.

Which doing is impossible, therefore, the law saves no one.
The law was not given to save, which it could not do, it was given to reveal sin (Gal 3:19-26).

But sinners cannot do the Law because of their original/personal sins that rendered an indictment of quilt and sentence of condemnation. This is what they do not grasp, understand or haven't heard or could understand.

But for the sake of the elect the second Adam steps in and fulfills the Law to be declared righteous,

Jesus was born righteous, committed no sin to lose righteousness and fulfilled all righteosness, making him a perfect sacrifice of atonement.

and it's this righteousness of Christ that is imputed to sinners who believe. So, in essence we are justified because of Christ and His finished works.

Through faith in Jesus Christ, we are justified (declared "not guilty" by Christ's atonement /payment for our sin).
Salvation has been by faith in the promise (Ge 15:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) since Abraham.

The law was not given to Moses to save, but to reveal sin (Gal 3:21).

 

[brightfame52]

@Ladodgers6

So, in essence we are justified because of Christ and His finished works.

Agreed, is that before or after the elect believe in Jesus ?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Which doing is impossible, therefore, the law saves no one.
The law was not given to save, which it could not do, it was given to reveal sin (Gal 3:19-26).

Yes, I understand Eleanor. The reason Paul says this in Galatians is because we are sinners. And therefore the Law cannot save us because of our original sin & guilt that is imputed to us all from the first Adam.

Christ the second Adam is fulfilling the Covenant of Works that the first Adam failed to do. Thus Christ fulfilled the Law with His perfect obedience for us and in order to redeem us from the curse of the Law, and by taking our place by becoming a curse for us. And we receive His imputed righteousness to be declared by God righteous through Faith Alone in Christ and His finished works.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

@Ladodgers6



Agreed, is that before or after the elect believe in Jesus ?

After, because before the elect are justified through Faith in Christ they are in the same boat as everyone else. Cursed under the Law and in need of a redeemer.

 

[brightfame52]

After, because before the elect are justified through Faith in Christ they are in the same boat as everyone else. Cursed under the Law and in need of a redeemer.

Then your statement here

So, in essence we are justified because of Christ and His finished works.

Should read:

So, in essence we are justified because of our faith and His finished works.

I agree with your statement

So, in essence we are justified because of Christ and His finished works.

And then God given Faith comes into the Knowledge of what Christ and His finished work accomplished for me.

 

[brightfame52]

@Ladodgers6

Yes, I understand Eleanor. The reason Paul says this in Galatians is because we are sinners. And therefore the Law cannot save us because of our original sin & guilt that is imputed to us all from the first Adam.

So let me please ask this question, when was the guilt and sin of adam and our sins imputed to Christ for Him to die for ? Since Paul preached Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

When were those offences laid to Christs charge ? And where those same offences laid to the charge of them He was delivered for at the same time ? Thanks

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, I understand Eleanor. The reason Paul says this in Galatians is because we are sinners. And therefore the Law cannot save us because of our original sin & guilt that is imputed to us all from the first Adam.

Christ the second Adam is fulfilling the Covenant of Works that the first Adam failed to do. Thus Christ fulfilled the Law​

Christ fulfilled the Law in being the sacrifice which atones for sin.

with His perfect obedience for us and in order to redeem us from the curse of the Law,​

We were redeemed from the curse of the law by his sacrifice, which was the penalty of the law for disobedience.

and by taking our place by becoming a curse for us. And we receive His imputed righteousness to be declared by God righteous through Faith Alone in Christ and His finished works.​

We received his imputed righteousness when we
believed, which resulted in
remission of sin, which resulted in
justification (declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of sinlessness), which resulted in
imputation of Christ's righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

@Eleanor

We were redeemed from the curse of the law by his sacrifice, which was the penalty of the law for disobedience.

Thats Justification b4 God right there b4 faith Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[Eleanor]

@Eleanor
Thats Justification b4 God right there b4 faith Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Which sacrifice of redemption is not applied to us in the temporal order until we come to saving faith (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[brightfame52]

Which sacrifice of redemption is not applied to us in the temporal order until we come to saving faith (Eph 2:8-9).

It doesnt have to be applied, it was accepted of God. Jesus death was applied b4 the throne of Gods Justice, He accepted it, and that cleared them. Now they dont know it yet, thats when Faith comes in, it applies to the mind and heart that which is Truth and real in Gods courtroom because of Christ. Faith believes what is True in heaven b4 God outside of ourselves.