Can a non elect person get saved?

[Red Baker]

But unlike the Calvinist concept of election, the election of Trump was clearly a function of who Trump was, his views, and his actions. The election of Trump was clearly about Trump as the electee. But most importantly, those who chose Trump chose him for what they thought he will do in the future.

Jim, my only point of mentioning our national election was to point out we choose one or the other. I said:

It signifies to single out, to select, to choose, to take one and leave another.

God chose his elect solely according to his own will and purpose and for his own glory. Let us consider this point:

Or, how can fairly judge someone who is not elect?

How can God fairly judge the vessels of wrath?

Romans 9:19~“Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?”

If God thus shows mercy, or hardens according to His sovereign pleasure, why, then, it may be asked, does He yet find fault with transgressors? How can he fairly judge those men who He leaves them in their sins? This is the only objection that can be made to what the Apostle was stating. Thou wilt say, then, who hath resisted His will? If God wills to create, and if He is all-powerful, and he knew what those would do whom he created, must He not be the author of sin? The thought will frequently start in the mind of some: If Divine grace is bestowed on some, and withheld from others; especially if the sins and transgressions of men are so under the control of the Almighty, that they but serve His purposes, how is it that such blame and censure attaches to the sinner, and that such dreadful judgments are denounced against him? If our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say then, is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? This, it will be perceived, is no other than the difficulty so generally felt in attempting to reconcile the responsibility of man as a moral agent, with a pre-ordination of all events, after the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. This pre-ordination the Apostle had asserted and proved from the Scriptures. From the Scriptures, at the same time, is evinced the complete responsibility of man as a moral agent, in the manner in which God created Adam and Eve in God’s finding fault; His remonstrances with transgressors; the declaration of their amenableness to a just judgment the manner in which the Gospel addresses them, and bewails their hardness and their impenetrable heart, unquestionably establishes this point. The proud wisdom of rebellious man indeed, almost dares to charge the oracles of God with inconsistency on this head; or, what is nearly as bad, takes upon itself either to explain away or to invalidate one part of the Scripture truth in order to establish the other, (which most do) and, in apologizing for Him before His creatures, to make God consistent with Himself! Such is the wicked presumption of man; such, we may lament to add, is the officious folly of some who mean to be the advocates of revelation; and the weak and imprudent defense of a friend is as dishonorable often as the open accusation of an enemy.

 

[makesends]

Red Baker said:
What does the word election mean? It signifies to single out, to select, to choose, to take one and leave another. We just had an election in our nation for a president.

But unlike the Calvinist concept of election, the election of Trump was clearly a function of who Trump was, his views, and his actions. The election of Trump was clearly about Trump as the electee. But most importantly, those who chose Trump chose him for what they thought he will do in the future.

Is that an attempt to render Red's point irrelevant? You don't knock down a house by breaking its windows. Nor can you undermine it by pointing out that its foundations are brick instead of stone.

Do you think God's election of individuals is a function of the individuals and not of God's purpose for them?

 

[prism]

Clearly, Adam was a slave to Satan and his own lusts also. And he neither more nor less than the rest of mankind. But even the slave can have the earnest desire to be set free.

Where in Scripture does it say Adam was a slave to Satan?

 

[Josheb]

Post-conversion welcome?
You had said previously,...
"God then intervened in Peter's life without informing Peter beforehand, without asking Peter if he wanted any part of it and intervened in Peter's life for the express purpose of bringing Cornelius to salvation in Christ without asking Cornelius if Cornelius wanted any part of life in Jesus.

It may be a 'pre-conversion' welcome; but not a post conversion welcome, unless we have different concepts of what conversion is.

Acts 10:34-35 (KJV) Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The matter had already been decided in God's mind. Or do you think God spoke to both Cornelius and Peter without intending to succeed?

In any case maybe you can pray God opens up my understanding on this issue of election...

Luke 24:31 (KJV) And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Why is fairness thought to be a concern in election in the first place?

 

[makesends]

Clearly, Adam was a slave to Satan and his own lusts also. And he neither more nor less than the rest of mankind. But even the slave can have the earnest desire to be set free.

The terrified soul can be earnest, but that only shows that terror is an earnest emotion. (my off-the-cuff paraphrase of CS Lewis' statement)

The earnest desire of a slave does not set him free, even if he earnestly entreats his master. It is his master's will that sets him free, if he is to be set free.

 

[JIM]

Jim, I can back up all the way to Genesis, that proves a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, impossible! The flesh, or natural men unregenerate, void of the Spirit of God, are not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

But my point remains, the topic in Matthew 7: 15-29 concerns false prophets and has not one thing to do with what you are trying to push.

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

Is the testimony of the scriptures from the beginning to the end, go where you desire to go, and the same truth are found therein, if interpreted correctly.

Jim, you are presenting a Straw man, when no one is arguing that it is not a choice to enter the narrow gate and walk the narrow path~but, as I said above, only those men whom God freely quickens to life would ever desire to do this. Enough on this point.

Same old false argument of regeneration before belief in contrast to passages like Ephesians 1:11-14 or Colossians 2:11-13. But, as you say, enough on this point.

 

[JIM]

Do you think God's election of individuals is a function of the individuals and not of God's purpose for them?

Those are not mutually exclusive. It is only you who declare it to be so. But I would challenge you that if it is not a function of the individuals, then you have no way to even know that you are one of the elect.

 

[JIM]

Where in Scripture does it say Adam was a slave to Satan?

Only by the false logic of the argument that being a slave to Satan is the primary cause of sinning.

 

[JIM]

The terrified soul can be earnest, but that only shows that terror is an earnest emotion. (my off-the-cuff paraphrase of CS Lewis' statement)

The earnest desire of a slave does not set him free, even if he earnestly entreats his master. It is his master's will that sets him free, if he is to be set free.

So we are back to the absurd idea that God doesn't really want to set most of humanity free and thus is the only real basis for any not to be free.

 

[Arial]

Those are not mutually exclusive. It is only you who declare it to be so. But I would challenge you that if it is not a function of the individuals, then you have no way to even know that you are one of the elect.

How about checking what one believes.

If believing, according to Jesus, is the way of eternal life, isn't what we believe what we should be evaluating against the word of God? Instead of what we chose "of our own free will". He never does say, after all, "Choose to believe and you will have eternal life." And if he did say such a thing he would not have been telling the truth when he said, "No one can come to me unless the Father grants it."

If you believe then you are one of the elect. You are not one of the elect because you chose to be one of the elect. Give God some credit here instead of shaking your first at him for what he has done in and for you! Learn how to say "Thank you."

 

[prism]

Only by the false logic of the argument that being a slave to Satan is the primary cause of sinning.

Sounds like you have a low estimation of Scripture...

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Note: Im not saying this is true of the regenerate.

 

[JIM]

How about checking what one believes.

If believing, according to Jesus, is the way of eternal life, isn't what we believe what we should be evaluating against the word of God? Instead of what we chose "of our own free will". He never does say, after all, "Choose to believe and you will have eternal life." And if he did say such a thing he would not have been telling the truth when he said, "No one can come to me unless the Father grants it."

If you believe then you are one of the elect. You are not one of the elect because you chose to be one of the elect. Give God some credit here instead of shaking your first at him for what he has done in and for you! Learn how to say "Thank you."

Believing is a choice.

 

[JIM]

Sounds like you have a low estimation of Scripture...

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Note: Im not saying this is true of the regenerate.

1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions--is not from the Father but is from the world.

We have here the description of the three main causes of sinning. They are us. We are the primary cause of sinning. Satan uses "the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions" against us. They are what, in each of us, Satan appeals to in his tempting us. That is his work in this world.

 

[Red Baker]

But I would challenge you that if it is not a function of the individuals, then you have no way to even know that you are one of the elect.

Jim, our believing is a work we do, but it is a fruit of the indwelling Spirit, a fruit of the new man within us, created by the Spirit of God so that we would have the power to believe. So, it is by faith that we come to know any truth concerning the word of God, and it is by faith we know that we have eternal life. ​

John 20:31​

“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

To me this scripture is so plain, and the sense is clear to a believing soul. God gave to us his testimony concerning all truths that we need to know to love and serve him. Within the scriptures, there are many truths which we discuss among ourselves. The verse before us said clearly that these things are written that we might know, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and notice carefully John's next words..."that believing ye might have life through his name.” The sense meaning, that we might have the knowledge of eternal life that is only through Jesus Christ which is the testimony many scriptures throughout the written word of God. I gave the sense with a cumulative of other scriptures testimony.

You asked:​

"How may you know I'm elected of God? ​

First, by the Word of God having come in divine power to the soul so that my self-complacency is shattered and my self-righteousness is renounced.

1st Thessalonians​

"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:"

Second, by the Holy Spirit convicting me of my woeful, guilty, and lost condition.

Third, by having had revealed to me the suitability and sufficiency of Christ to meet my desperate case and by a divinely given faith causing me to lay hold of and rest upon Him as my only hope.

Fourth, by the marks of the new nature within me - a love for God; an appetite for spiritual things; a longing for holiness; a seeking after conformity to Christ. Above all, a broken heart when we willingly sin.

Fifth, by the resistance which the new nature makes to the old, causing me to hate sin and loathe myself for it.

Sixth, by avoiding everything which is condemned by God's Word and by sincerely repenting of and humbly confessing every transgression.
Failure at this point will surely bring a dark cloud over our assurance causing the Spirit to withhold His witness.

Seventh, by giving all diligence to cultivate the Christian graces and using all diligence to this end.

2nd Peter 1:5-10
"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

Thus the knowledge of election is cumulative."

 

[JIM]

Jim, our believing is a work we do, but it is a fruit of the indwelling Spirit, a fruit of the new man within us, created by the Spirit of God so that we would have the power to believe. So, it is by faith that we come to know any truth concerning the word of God, and it is by faith we know that we have eternal life. ​

John 20:31​

“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

To me this scripture is so plain, and the sense is clear to a believing soul. God gave to us his testimony concerning all truths that we need to know to love and serve him. Within the scriptures, there are many truths which we discuss among ourselves. The verse before us said clearly that these things are written that we might know, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and notice carefully John's next words..."that believing ye might have life through his name.” The sense meaning, that we might have the knowledge of eternal life that is only through Jesus Christ which is the testimony many scriptures throughout the written word of God. I gave the sense with a cumulative of other scriptures testimony.

Red, one more time you are confused because of the KJV.

(ESV) but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

(ISV) But these have been recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and so that through believing you may have life in his name.

(NIrV) But these are written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. If you believe this, you will have life because you belong to him.

(NIV) But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

What John 20:31 says there is that believing is the means through which life in His name is obtained. To have life in His name is regeneration. And that is obtained through believing that Jesus is the Christ. That is a direct rejection of the Reformed Theology view of regeneration first then faith. John 20:31 says regeneration through faith. First faith then regeneration. And that is in perfect harmony with Ephesians 1:13. And interestingly there even the KJV gets that one right.

(ASV) in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, - in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

(ESV) In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

(ISV) You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

(KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Similarly with Colossians 2: 11-13

(KJV) Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

In all of those there can be no doubt that it is through faith, through believing that Jesus is the Christ, that we are born again; that we, being dead in our sins, were made alive together with Jesus having been forgiven our sins. It is regeneration through faith. It is by first believing in Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, that we are born again.

And that is the message of Peter in the first sermon he preached at Pentecost and recorded in Acts 2:38 where he told the repentant believers that they must "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". The forgiveness of sins is justification and being given the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is regeneration.

And all of that is perfectly consistent with the very simple and straightforward declaration by Jesus in Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

You asked:​

"How may you know I'm elected of God? ​

First, by the Word of God having come in divine power to the soul so that my self-complacency is shattered and my self-righteousness is renounced.


Second, by the Holy Spirit convicting me of my woeful, guilty, and lost condition.

Third, by having had revealed to me the suitability and sufficiency of Christ to meet my desperate case and by a divinely given faith causing me to lay hold of and rest upon Him as my only hope.

Fourth, by the marks of the new nature within me - a love for God; an appetite for spiritual things; a longing for holiness; a seeking after conformity to Christ. Above all, a broken heart when we willingly sin.

Fifth, by the resistance which the new nature makes to the old, causing me to hate sin and loathe myself for it.

Sixth, by avoiding everything which is condemned by God's Word and by sincerely repenting of and humbly confessing every transgression.
Failure at this point will surely bring a dark cloud over our assurance causing the Spirit to withhold His witness.

Seventh, by giving all diligence to cultivate the Christian graces and using all diligence to this end.



Thus the knowledge of election is cumulative."

All of that is your confusion because of really bad soteriology.

 

[prism]

1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions--is not from the Father but is from the world.

We have here the description of the three main causes of sinning. They are us. We are the primary cause of sinning. Satan uses "the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions" against us. They are what, in each of us, Satan appeals to in his tempting us. That is his work in this world.

I've already showed Scripture that reveals Satan holding sway over the unbeliever, your passage is an exhortation addressing the believers.

 

[Mr GLee]

What John 20:31 says there is that believing is the means through which life in His name is obtained. To have life in His name is regeneration. And that is obtained through believing that Jesus is the Christ. That is a direct rejection of the Reformed Theology view of regeneration first then faith. John 20:31 says regeneration through faith. First faith then regeneration. And that is in perfect harmony with Ephesians 1:13. And interestingly there even the KJV gets that one right

First the faith or belief of God ."let there be" and the regeneration "it was God alone good"

Faith power of God

Faith as a labor of love is a work not of dying mankind but is of Christ the faithful Creator . Can't separated the labor of love from the work of faith.

Christ working in us yoked with him burdens can be lighter.

 

[JIM]

I've already showed Scripture that reveals Satan holding sway over the unbeliever, your passage is an exhortation addressing the believers.

The reason anyone sins does not change when one becomes a believer. What changes is the believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit to help him fight against the urge to sin.

 

[prism]

The reason anyone sins does not change when one becomes a believer. What changes is the believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit to help him fight against the urge to sin.

But we still sin, even though we have the Holy Spirit helping us, correct? Or are we perfect in thought, word and deed?

 

[JIM]

But we still sin, even though we have the Holy Spirit helping us, correct?

Yes, obviously.