Can a non elect person get saved?

[JIM]

Jim, the fall has issued in man’s becoming the bondslave of Satan. That is another mysterious but very real thing, about which we can know nothing except what is revealed in Holy Writ; but its teaching leaves us in no doubt about the fact. It reveals that men are morally the devil’s children (Acts 13:10; I John 3:10), that they are his captives (2 Timothy 2:26) and under his power (Acts 26:18; Col. 1:13), that they are determined to do what he wants (John 8:44). He is described as the strong man armed, who holds undisputed possession of the sinner’s soul, until a stronger than he dispossesses him (Luke 11:21-22). It speaks of men being "oppressed of the devil" (Acts 10:38), and declares, "The 'god' of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Corinthians 4:4). The heart of fallen man is the throne on which Satan reigns, and all the sons of Adam are naturally inclined to yield themselves slaves to him. The awful reality of his enslaving men was authenticated beyond the possibility of doubt by the cases of demoniacal possession in Christ’s day.

2nd Timothy 2:26​

“And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”

Ephesians 2:2​

“Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:”

There is so much made of "the fall" and yet it is not even a topic discussed in scripture.

As for the rest of your post, I find that most of it is an interpretation slanted toward your thinking more than taken for what is said in reference to the context and the topic under discussion.

 

[makesends]

There is so much made of "the fall" and yet it is not even a topic discussed in scripture.

As for the rest of your post, I find that most of it is an interpretation slanted toward your thinking more than taken for what is said in reference to the context and the topic under discussion.

The fall is not a topic discussed in Scripture? This is amazing! Is not Adam's sin discussed in Scripture? The whole story is laid out for us in Genesis.

What do you do with verses like, "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.", and, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of the One having subjected it, in hope"?

What do you think "In Adam all sinned" is referring to?

 

[prism]

The children of disobedience are those who disobeyed, not simply descendants of Adam. So before each disobeys, i.e., before each sins, he is not according to the course of this world.

Surprise!

Romans 3:9-12 NKJV
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. [10] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; [11] There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. [12] They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

Romans 5:12,14,18-19 NKJV
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned- [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. [18] Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. [19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

 

[JIM]

The fall is not a topic discussed in Scripture? This is amazing! Is not Adam's sin discussed in Scripture? The whole story is laid out for us in Genesis.

What do you do with verses like, "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.", and, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of the One having subjected it, in hope"?

What do you think "In Adam all sinned" is referring to?

It never says, "in Adam all sinned". Besides, "In Adam" simply means being a descendant of Adam, i.e., being a human being. The only place it appears is in 1 Corinthians 15:22 and there it is speaking of the physical condition of all mankind, not the spiritual condition.

Also, do you believe that God has "mercy on them all"? I am not challenging you on that, I simply am curious if you believe it and how you understand it.

 

[JIM]

Surprise!

Romans 3:9-12 NKJV
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. [10] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; [11] There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. [12] They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

First you should look to the original source where it is written to see what Paul might have been referring to. Check out Psalms 14:1-7 and 53:1-6. Second, you need to clarify for yourself, what is meant there when it says that none are righteous, or none do good.

Romans 5:12,14,18-19 NKJV
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned- [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. [18] Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. [19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Yes, from Romans 5:18: "even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." And from Romans 5:19: "so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous."
Moreover, Romans 5:12 says "so death spread to all men because all sinned-- "

 

[Mr GLee]

The children of disobedience are those who disobeyed, not simply descendants of Adam. So before each disobeys, i.e., before each sins, he is not according to the course of this world. By the way, so far as I can find, we are never a slave to Satan. We were once slaves to sin.

Who defines what sin is ? God or Satan the god of this world

The word sin has a definition . Sin "violation of divine law, offense against God;

If not a slave to sin then the other side of the coin a bond slave as a servant to Christ who works in us .The father of lies works in others

Two possibilities. . no one can serve two .Which one ?

 

[Mr GLee]

There is so much made of "the fall" and yet it is not even a topic discussed in scripture.

As for the rest of your post, I find that most of it is an interpretation slanted toward your thinking more than taken for what is said in reference to the context and the topic under discussion.

Not a topic ? Not discussed ??

False prohecy is the opening discussion.

The law of interpretation "no adding or subtracting from the living word" . Change one word change the authority of all.

Deuteronomy King James Version4 :2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

God protecting the integrity of the living word .Another simular warning at the end of the book of prophecy in regard to the perfect . Both working as one protecting the integrity of the whole .

In order to establish the priesthood of believers. Adam is used to represent Christ (invisible head ) Moses was to be like God prophesying declaring his will to his bride the church, signified by Eve as the Priestess.

Adam failed to protect he did inform her of the prophecy .

Exodus 7King James Version And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

Satan knowing she was the weaker vessel as a priestesses prophet .Satan the spirit of lies added his false prophecy eight words ."neither shall you touch it lest ye die " revealing the lying power of False Pride. The lust of flesh driven by the lust of the eye to the hidden tree . .touching it she did not die instantly both did eat an die. The serpent poison of false prophecy

Genesis 3: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the (hidden) midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Confirming false prophecy

The two building blocks of false pride. .

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
.

 

[JIM]

Who defines what sin is ? God or Satan the god of this world

The word sin has a definition . Sin "violation of divine law, offense against God;

If not a slave to sin then the other side of the coin a bond slave as a servant to Christ who works in us .The father of lies works in others

Two possibilities. . no one can serve two .Which one ?

Third possibility, neither. Which is the condition of the very young and those too mentally deficient know and understand.

 

[JIM]

Not a topic ? Not discussed ??

No it is not the topic usually identified as "the fall". Adam sinned and was ejected from the Garden. And everyone after him sinned also but not because of him. They sinned for much the same reason that he did. He chose to sin as has everyone since.

 

[Mr GLee]

No it is not the topic usually identified as "the fall". Adam sinned and was ejected from the Garden. And everyone after him sinned also but not because of him. They sinned for much the same reason that he did. He chose to sin as has everyone since.

If he has no idea what sin and its wage is how could he choose? Scripture defines sin not ones own imagination

Adam sinned by believing false prophecy given to Eve a false apostle adding to true ."Neither shall your touch it lest you die"

 

[JIM]

If he has no idea what sin and its wage is how could he choose? Scripture defines sin not ones own imagination

Adam sinned by believing false prophecy given to Eve a false apostle adding to true ."Neither shall your touch it lest you die"

Sorry, I don't know what that has to do with my post.

 

[prism]

Second, you need to clarify for yourself, what is meant there when it says that none are righteous, or none do good.

It's pretty clear after Paul spent two chapters showing both Jew and Gentile guilty before God and then revealing man's only hope through Jesus Christ starting at 3:21.
Do you think there are any exceptions to our guilt before a Holy God?

 

[JIM]

It's pretty clear after Paul spent two chapters showing both Jew and Gentile guilty before God and then revealing man's only hope through Jesus Christ starting at 3:21.
Do you think there are any exceptions to our guilt before a Holy God?

Why would I think that?

 

[prism]

Why would I think that?

Only you would know. I'm not a mind reader.

 

[makesends]

It never says, "in Adam all sinned". Besides, "In Adam" simply means being a descendant of Adam, i.e., being a human being. The only place it appears is in 1 Corinthians 15:22 and there it is speaking of the physical condition of all mankind, not the spiritual condition.

Also, do you believe that God has "mercy on them all"? I am not challenging you on that, I simply am curious if you believe it and how you understand it.

Quite right it doesn't say "in Adam all sinned". My bad. I should have said, "it shows that in Adam all sinned". But your protest is a red herring. My question is, how do you figure that it is not talking about the Fall of Adam?

Not that I agree, but if it is speaking of the physical condition of all mankind, how is it still not a reference to the fall of Adam?

You ask, "...do you believe God has "mercy on them all"?". It doesn't say that he has mercy on them all, (though he does —mercy of another kind). Read the passage as a whole. It is saying what ONE MAN did, THE SECOND MAN undid. All men have sinned, and that, as a result of the first Adam. Now, if any is to be made alive, it is through the second. That is the point of the passage. The point of that part of Paul's discourse is not that all have sinned, (though it is true that they have), but the result of one's sin vs the work of the other.

The passage was not written in English, with modern American thought-patterns. Consider how Paul makes the same comparison in Romans 5:12-21. He is not there saying that all will be made alive.

 

[JIM]

Only you would know. I'm not a mind reader.

Then why would you even ask that question?

Quite right it doesn't say "in Adam all sinned". My bad. I should have said, "it shows that in Adam all sinned". But your protest is a red herring. My question is, how do you figure that it is not talking about the Fall of Adam?

What character trait of God would cause you to think that God would ever blame you are anyone else for Adam's sin?

Not that I agree, but if it is speaking of the physical condition of all mankind, how is it still not a reference to the fall of Adam?

You ask, "...do you believe God has "mercy on them all"?". It doesn't say that he has mercy on them all, (though he does —mercy of another kind). Read the passage as a whole. It is saying what ONE MAN did, THE SECOND MAN undid. All men have sinned, and that, as a result of the first Adam. Now, if any is to be made alive, it is through the second. That is the point of the passage. The point of that part of Paul's discourse is not that all have sinned, (though it is true that they have), but the result of one's sin vs the work of the other.

The passage was not written in English, with modern American thought-patterns. Consider how Paul makes the same comparison in Romans 5:12-21. He is not there saying that all will be made alive.

You need to rethink your position on Romans 5:12-21. First, what does Paul say was the result of Adam's sin? Paul says that sin entered the world and death through sin. Then it says that death spread to all men because all men sinned. It does not say that death spread to all men because Adam sinned. Nor does it say that all men sinned because of Adam. It doesn't even address the issue of why Adam sinned or what the rest of all mankind sinned. It only says that Adam was the first. He was the leader of the parade. The leader only leads the parade; he isn't the reason for the parade.

Now you are almost correct in saying that what one man did, the second man undid. What was it that the one man did? It doesn't say that due to what Adam did, all men were born dead, i.e., original sin, but that is the general understanding. So what did the second man undo? It should be obvious that the second man undid original sin. Please note that nothing there says anything about the effect of the second man's, i.e., Jesus', righteousness and obedience on the disobedience and trespasses of all men. The second man undid only what the one man did, not what all men did. Paul is only saying there that Jesus undid original sin. The effect of Jesus' righteousness on the sins of all men is discussed in what follows Romans 5. Actually I believe that verses 20 and 21 should be the beginning verses to chapter 6. That is where Paul begins to address what effect of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection on the sins of mankind. That of course is limited to believers who were baptized.

The undoing of original sin of Adam was to all mankind (5:12-19). The undoing of the sins of mankind was only to baptized believers (5:20-6:14).

 

[JIM]

He is not there saying that all will be made alive.

Yes, he does. See my post just above, post #116.

 

[prism]

Then why would you even ask that question?

Because you asked, "Why would I think that?"

 

[makesends]

Then why would you even ask that question?

What character trait of God would cause you to think that God would ever blame you are anyone else for Adam's sin?

You base your theology on what you conceive of by the character traits of God? So do the universalists.

You need to rethink your position on Romans 5:12-21. First, what does Paul say was the result of Adam's sin? Paul says that sin entered the world and death through sin. Then it says that death spread to all men because all men sinned. It does not say that death spread to all men because Adam sinned. Nor does it say that all men sinned because of Adam. It doesn't even address the issue of why Adam sinned or what the rest of all mankind sinned. It only says that Adam was the first. He was the leader of the parade. The leader only leads the parade; he isn't the reason for the parade.

To rearrange the punctuation of the text is to misquote the text. It doesn't say this, and then that. It says the whole thing as one thought. Further, the Greek is sometimes more clearly translated, instead of, "because all sinned", as, "in that all sinned". I know the concept is difficult for one bent on self-determinism, of "we do so because it is so", but our sin, there, is proof of what we are.

But this was already off-topic in the last go-round. You still are not answering, even if you are right that it was referring to physical death and not spiritual death, how it is not referring to the fall of Adam?

Now you are almost correct in saying that what one man did, the second man undid. What was it that the one man did? It doesn't say that due to what Adam did, all men were born dead, i.e., original sin, but that is the general understanding. So what did the second man undo? It should be obvious that the second man undid original sin. Please note that nothing there says anything about the effect of the second man's, i.e., Jesus', righteousness and obedience on the disobedience and trespasses of all men. The second man undid only what the one man did, not what all men did. Paul is only saying there that Jesus undid original sin. The effect of Jesus' righteousness on the sins of all men is discussed in what follows Romans 5. Actually I believe that verses 20 and 21 should be the beginning verses to chapter 6. That is where Paul begins to address what effect of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection on the sins of mankind. That of course is limited to believers who were baptized.

You still are not showing that The Fall of Adam is unscriptural.

The undoing of original sin of Adam was to all mankind (5:12-19). The undoing of the sins of mankind was only to baptized believers (5:20-6:14).

Agreed. That is what I have been saying is the correct use of the text. All mankind is under the principle. If anyone is to be saved, it is by the second 'Adam'.

 

[makesends]

Yes, he does. See my post just above, post #116.

No, he doesn't. You keep doing this, rearranging the text, changing the punctuation, picking a piece of it out of context. That is misquoting.

To quote a text in its entirety is to quote it entirely, as written, in order for the sequence of thought it presents to be brought to bear. You can't just say, "all have sinned", (though everyone does), as though that verse from which the quote is taken of itself authorizes us to say it, because our use of that phrase isn't what the writer is saying. So also, "all will be made alive", by itself, is not what the writer is saying, either.

But, again, (and I'm subject to straying off on tangents, too), this is all off topic.