Preservation Of The Saints

[Josheb]

Would he be a saved bear or an unsaved bear?

 

[makesends]

Do you agree with the OSAS? I have an issue with it. I believe there are many problems with it by many reformed.

I agree there are many problems with it. It is a narrow-minded assessment of a much larger point.

'OSAS' seems to me more often attributed to the Reformed, than espoused by the Reformed. The security of salvation is found in God's decree/purposes. If God has chosen someone, that person will be saved. What God has begun —even from the foundation of the world— he will complete. The fact that at some point that elect person becomes a believer (i.e. "saved"), is really not the beginning of the whole formula —God knew about that and caused it to happen.

Also, 'OSAS' is rooted in human perception. Time is not the point of Salvation, but apparently those who take to opposing Reformed Theology think it is, since they take to attributing 'OSAS' to the Reformed. But WHEN a person is saved, is not the point— God's purpose, and God's work, is the point. 'OSAS' points at a faulty perspective. It is far from the whole picture.

 

[Alive]

Cool image!

 

[Arial]

Do you agree with the OSAS? I have an issue with it. I believe there are many problems with it by many reformed.

A way to look at it since you are a monergist. It is part and parcel of monergism. He who began a good work in you will bring it to fulfillment.

 

[Alive]

I agree there are many problems with it. It is a narrow-minded assessment of a much larger point.

'OSAS' seems to me more often attributed to the Reformed, than espoused by the Reformed. The security of salvation is found in God's decree/purposes. If God has chosen someone, that person will be saved. What God has begun —even from the foundation of the world— he will complete. The fact that at some point that elect person becomes a believer (i.e. "saved"), is really not the beginning of the whole formula —God knew about that and caused it to happen.

Also, 'OSAS' is rooted in human perception. Time is not the point of Salvation, but apparently those who take to opposing Reformed Theology think it is, since they take to attributing 'OSAS' to the Reformed. But WHEN a person is saved, is not the point— God's purpose, and God's work, is the point. 'OSAS' points at a faulty perspective. It is far from the whole picture.

I agree with Carbon on this. OSAS is a true statement, but it does invite a canned response because such canned response from free willers has been repeated so many times…for them it’s axiomatic.

 

[Arial]

@Alive

The term can promote antinominism

It may to those who are synergists----that in a nutshell is the problem I think, with those who believe we can lose our salvation. And maybe it would for a time to a baby Christian. But for one who God has brought to life in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit will deal with whatever the sins are progressively.

 

[Carbon]

To be fair, Luther held, and the conservative Lutheran sects hold while it is possible it is extremely rare and unlikely.

That’s good to know. But still possible though

They take a weird view simultaneously subscribing to the possibility of losing salvation and knowing eternal security . For that reason, I do not place them in the same group as the soteriological volitionalists. From the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod page:

 

[makesends]

I came to this understanding before I studied Calvin as well as I came to understand the realty of being included in Christ’s Cross, Resurrection and Ascension.
Salvation is relocation.

Seems there are quite a few of us here who came to it before we knew what it was called. All I knew about the names, "Calvinism" and "Reformed" was the caricatures.

 

[Carbon]

Would he be a saved bear or an unsaved bear?

Don’t only the saved bears have wings?

 

[Carbon]

Don’t only the saved bears have wings?

Oh wait, there are fleas all around the bears head. If he is saved should those fleas be following him?

 

[Carbon]

It may to those who are synergists----that in a nutshell is the problem I think,

Yes, you may be right.

But for one who God has brought to life in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit will deal with whatever the sins are progressively.

 

[Alive]

Seems there are quite a few of us here who came to it before we knew what it was called. All I knew about the names, "Calvinism" and "Reformed" was the caricatures.

My first couple of years, I joined no local assembly but devoured scripture and read much of Watchman Nee and others.
Then the Lord led me to join a Pentecostal denomination where I entered the ministry and was given a church to Pastor.
Those folks were free willers. After some years, the Lord led me out. I had learned much during those years, but not so much doctrinally, but rather God taught me directly things He knew I would need over the years.
I was taught much for the ministry and preached accordingly, but somehow…those things didn’t stick.
Got involved in home church and much more study of a wide range.
Not being connected to the denom, freed me up in a sense. Its been a near 50 year journey.

 

[jeremiah1five]

For those of you who may not know, there are 5 points of Calvinism, with Preservation Of The Saints being the fifth point. They are in this order.
What Are the Five Points of Calvinism?

• T: Total Depravity.
• U: Unconditional Election.
• L: Limited Atonement.
• I: Irresistible Grace.
• P: Perseverance of the Saints.

Strangely, this doctrine is only Reformed, as there is not a single church of Christendom outside the Reformed group, which maintains the biblical doctrine of the Preservation Of The Saints. The Roman Catholics, the Lutherans, all the various types of Arminians, and a great host of sects all agree that it is possible for persons who have received God's saving grace in their souls, to lose such saving grace and to sink down into eternal death.

Only those Christians, who are of the Reformed faith, subscribe to the view that a person who has once received the life that is from above, can never fall away from grace and become prey to everlasting destruction.

Once baptized into the body of Christ no one can unbaptize themselves out of the body of Christ.
Once a son (or daughter), always a son (or daughter) of the Lord.

 

[Carbon]

Once baptized into the body of Christ no one can unbaptize themselves out of the body of Christ.
Once a son (or daughter), always a son (or daughter) of the Lord.

Guess that’s one way of putting it.

 

[David1701]

For those of you who may not know, there are 5 points of Calvinism, with Preservation Of The Saints being the fifth point. They are in this order.
What Are the Five Points of Calvinism?

• T: Total Depravity.
• U: Unconditional Election.
• L: Limited Atonement.
• I: Irresistible Grace.
• P: Perseverance of the Saints.

Strangely, this doctrine is only Reformed, as there is not a single church of Christendom outside the Reformed group, which maintains the biblical doctrine of the Preservation Of The Saints. The Roman Catholics, the Lutherans, all the various types of Arminians, and a great host of sects all agree that it is possible for persons who have received God's saving grace in their souls, to lose such saving grace and to sink down into eternal death.

Only those Christians, who are of the Reformed faith, subscribe to the view that a person who has once received the life that is from above, can never fall away from grace and become prey to everlasting destruction.

T.U.L.I.P. is certainly true; however, there are even freewillers who believe that one can never lose his salvation (I've known several personally).

 

[Carbon]

T.U.L.I.P. is certainly true; however, there are even freewillers who believe that one can never lose his salvation (I've known several personally).

Yes, I know there are. But overall, Arminianism is undecided as a whole.

 

[Carbon]

T.U.L.I.P. is certainly true; however, there are even freewillers who believe that one can never lose his salvation (I've known several personally).

As you probably have, I debated Arminians and other freewillers who insist scripture teaches salvation can be lost. Others, they agree it cannot be lost.

 

[David1701]

As you probably have, I debated Arminians and other freewillers who insist scripture teaches salvation can be lost. Others, they agree it cannot be lost.

As I "probably have"??? Carbon, don't you remember, on old CARM, when you were "Foghorn", that I debated with freewillers and Arminians about that for years?

The Arminianism-Calvinism board has more or less died there now, but I was very active there for about 10 years.

 

[David1701]

Yes, I know there are. But overall, Arminianism is undecided as a whole.

I usually distinguish between freewillers and proper Arminians; but, yes, Arminianism, as a whole, does not give a certain sound about the permanence of salvation.

 

[Carbon]

As I "probably have"??? Carbon, don't you remember, on old CARM, when you were "Foghorn", that I debated with freewillers and Arminians about that for years?

The Arminianism-Calvinism board has more or less died there now, but I was very active there for about 10 years.

Of course I remember. I’m glad I wasn’t an Arminian debating you.