Alternative meaning to the term Foreknown

[FutureAndAHope]

Justin Martyr and his usage of Foreknown, Foreknew​

The following are quotes are taken from Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] as found in the eBook of Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1 (Rev. Dods 1867*E1). They show the meaning that was applied to the phrase.

Not made Wicked by God​

We see the terms usage by Justin Martyr in the passages that follow, foreknow his text shows does not mean God made some wicked, he says that the wicked can seek repentance and find it. This is contry to the Calvanistic idea that "b. God predestines certain souls to salvation and, esp. in Calvinism, others to damnation" (Collins 2023*W0). So predestination, or foreknowledge can not mean God assigns some to salvation and some to damnation.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho​

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.​

"...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 122-End*E1)

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.​

"...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 122-End*E1)

Foreknown "were to believe in Him", and "to believe in Him"​

Justin also uses the term Foreknown, with the phrase "foreknown to believe in him". There is a suggestion with the term "to believe", that God is looking forward to a time when He can see people will believe in Him; at the time before creation He knows there will be those who accept His ways.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho​

Chap. XLII. — The Bells on the Priest’s Robe Were a Figure of the Apostles.​

"...all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 36-52*E2)

Chap. LXX. — So also the Mysteries of Mithras Are Distorted from the Prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah.​

"...And this prophecy proves that we shall behold this very King with glory; and the very terms of the prophecy declare loudly, that the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 67-83*E3)

Justin Fights Fatalism and Supports Free Will​

In the following passage Justin Martyr states that the church does not believe in a Fatalistic view of foreknowledge, that man has genuine free will. This idea is also supported by Iranaeus [A.D. 120-202.], who strongly supports free will not Fatalism, as shown below. In summary they say:

• Men have genuine free will to accept or reject God and His commands
• There is no coercion or compulsion with God, He gives us free will to voluntarily accept Him
• Man has power to accept or Reject God, he is not powerless.

Justin Martyr - First Apology​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted​

"But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 26-50*E4)

Iranaeus - Against Heresies​

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.​

"1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do." (Rev. Rambaut W. H. 1867, Ch 35-37*E0)

How should we interpret Romans 8:29-30​

In light of the Early Church, there is 0% chance that Romans 8:29-30 should be read to mean "b. God predestines certain souls to salvation and, esp. in Calvinism, others to damnation" (Collins 2023*W0). The Early Church supports the idea of free agency (free will) in salvation. They state there is no compulsion (forcing of will) with God, that God gives His good will to all people. As is supported by scriptures like "1Timothy 4:10 (NKJV) For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. " and "1 John 2:2 (NKJV) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world".
Furthermore Romans 8:29-30 can be read to mean the ones foreknown to believe in Jesus. Meaning God knew at creation people would believe in Him, and He marked those ones out for salvation.

 

[Eleanor]

God's foreknowledge does not mean seeing down the corridors of time to "know in advance what is going to happen" (and then responding accordingly).
That is man's notion, not the Biblical notion.

In the Bible, God's foreknowledge means to "know in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen," no seeing down the corridors of time necessary.

"Known to the Lord for ages (foreknowledge) is his work." (Ac 15:18)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

God's foreknowledge does not mean seeing down the corridors of time to "know in advance what is going to happen" (and then responding accordingly).
That is man's notion, not the Biblical notion.

In the Bible, God's foreknowledge means to "know in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen," no seeing down the corridors of time necessary.

"Known to the Lord for ages (foreknowledge) is his work." (Ac 15:18)

From what I have seen, I agree that God has a plan for creation, but to me it is flexible, based upon what we do. Due to our human limitations, we often make God's plan linear, a one-off story. But that is not the way I see it. As with David, the Bible says God had a plan for Him written down:

Psa_139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

But we see God changed David's plan when he sinned.

2Sa 12:8-12 I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.' Thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.' "

As I have mentioned elsewhere, there is a branch of AI that can know the outcome of a simulation, yet still be within a freewill system. All that needs to be done to control the system is to put constraints on the "stories". God could put constraints on our stories, individually, and to fulfill His purposes, knowing the future, yet still allowing us to make choices.

As for what you said about "He has decreed that it shall happen", you mention that that is biblical. But it is not really. God often mentions changing His mind in the Bible. And as we see in Genisis He did not plan man's wickedness.

Jer 18:10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

 

[prism]

R

Not made Wicked by God​

We see the terms usage by Justin Martyr in the passages that follow, foreknow his text shows does not mean God made some wicked, he says that the wicked can seek repentance and find it. This is contry to the Calvanistic idea that "b. God predestines certain souls to salvation and, esp. in Calvinism, others to damnation" (Collins 2023*W0). So predestination, or foreknowledge can not mean God assigns some to salvation and some to damnation.

Ran across this today...''contrary to Justin"

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

R

Ran across this today...''contrary to Justin"

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

But that does not mean God creates wicked people.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Justin is right.

Sure God has an ultimate plan for people who choose wickedness, as he does for those who choose what is right.

As we see with Ahab:

1Ki 21:20-22 So Ahab said to Elijah, "Have you found me, O my enemy?" And he answered, "I have found you, because you have sold yourself to do evil in the sight of the LORD: 'Behold, I will bring calamity on you. I will take away your posterity, and will cut off from Ahab every male in Israel, both bond and free. I will make your house like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, because of the provocation with which you have provoked Me to anger, and made Israel sin.'

God did not "will" into existence Ahab's evil, Ahab chose evil, so provoked God to anger.

Sinners don't start out wicked, they are not made blind by God, as Justin states, they become wicked once they reject God, that is when blindness occurs.

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[prism]

Sure God has an ultimate plan for people who choose wickedness, as he does for those who choose what is right.

What makes the difference between choosing wickedness and choosing what is right? Are some born less wicked than others? Less depraved than others? That doesn't seem fair.

Sinners don't start out wicked, they are not made blind by God, as Justin states, they become wicked once they reject God, that is when blindness occurs.

Do they reject God, because of blindness.? Or blindness sets in once they reject God?
For example regarding the Jews, would you call this 'fair' on God's part'''

Romans 11:25 NASB95
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

One could easily substitute 'hardness' for 'blindness', showing it is God who has mercy on some and blindss others.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What makes the difference between choosing wickedness and choosing what is right? Are some born less wicked than others? Less depraved than others? That doesn't seem fair.

Choosing wickedness and choosing right is not a simple binary choice. It is what happens over an extended period of time. A person builds a nature.

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

We must rule over our sin.

Luk 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The word strive indicates to struggle fervently. It is more than a simple binary choice it is what life style we build.


Rom 2:4-11 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.


The LORD uses many ways to draw people to Himself, be they mercy, kindness, or leanness of spirit.

Amo 4:9 "I blasted you with blight and mildew. When your gardens increased, Your vineyards, Your fig trees, And your olive trees, The locust devoured them; Yet you have not returned to Me," Says the LORD.

God’s desire is to draw people to Himself, but people are often unwilling to change.

Luke_13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

But God always gives people a two-way choice, and future:

Isa 1:16-20 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow. "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. If you are willing and obedient, You shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, You shall be devoured by the sword"; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Do they reject God, because of blindness.? Or blindness sets in once they reject God?
For example regarding the Jews, would you call this 'fair' on God's part'''

Romans 11:25 NASB95
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

One could easily substitute 'hardness' for 'blindness', showing it is God who has mercy on some and blindss others.

What God does is fair. If he temporarily hardened the Jews, so the gentiles could receive life, how is that wrong?

 

[prism]

What God does is fair. If he temporarily hardened the Jews, so the gentiles could receive life, how is that wrong?

So, when He predestines some but not others…that would be fair since the ones He predestines receive life. How is that wrong?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So, when He predestines some but not others…that would be fair since the ones He predestines receive life. How is that wrong?

I never said that; the hardening that Paul is talking about is probably generational, limited to the current generation. God caused blindness to the Jews so they would hand over Jesus.

 

[JIM]

God's foreknowledge does not mean seeing down the corridors of time to "know in advance what is going to happen" (and then responding accordingly).
That is man's notion, not the Biblical notion.

In the Bible, God's foreknowledge means to "know in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen," no seeing down the corridors of time necessary.

"Known to the Lord for ages (foreknowledge) is his work." (Ac 15:18)

What you are actually saying is that God is not truly omniscient. What you are describing is a relatively new concept called "openess theology" in which God knowledge of the future is not complete; rather, it is limited to what He has decreed shall happen.

 

[makesends]

@FutureAndAHope please read again what Eleanor says here.

God's foreknowledge does not mean seeing down the corridors of time to "know in advance what is going to happen" (and then responding accordingly).
That is man's notion, not the Biblical notion.

In the Bible, God's foreknowledge means to "know in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen," no seeing down the corridors of time necessary.

"Known to the Lord for ages (foreknowledge) is his work." (Ac 15:18)

Agreed completely! The notion is illogical that God predestines anything to happen only if and after he has "looked down the corridors of time" (or other words to the same effect). To predestine is to cause; it is self-contradictory to call it predestination if the predestination is a result of what it causes.

But worse than merely illogical, is that the notion mocks who God is. It pretends that his works are the result of ours.

 

[prism]

I never said that; the hardening that Paul is talking about is probably generational, limited to the current generation. God caused blindness to the Jews so they would hand over Jesus.

It says nothing about being generational. Paul is writing post Calvary , and indicates it's a continual process when he states, 'until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in'...

Romans 11:25 NASB95
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

 

[Eleanor]

What you are actually saying is that God is not truly omniscient. What you are describing is a relatively new concept called "openess theology" in which God knowledge of the future is not complete; rather, it is limited to what He has decreed shall happen.

God is totally omniscient. Nothing happens apart from his will and decree.

 

[Red Baker]

God's foreknowledge does not mean seeing down the corridors of time to "know in advance what is going to happen" (and then responding accordingly).
That is man's notion, not the Biblical notion.

In the Bible, God's foreknowledge means to "know in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen," no seeing down the corridors of time necessary.

"Known to the Lord for ages (foreknowledge) is his work." (Ac 15:18)

Let me add this~my understanding of God's foreknowledge is: God who knows the end from the very beginning, or from eternity~knew perfectly that unless he decree man's salvation from sin and condemnation, then he knew NONE WOULD HAVE EVER BEEN SAVED. I believe in double predestination~it is impossible to accept one and not the other.

When I read such scriptures as:

1st Peter 1:2~"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

I understand that phrase to mean, ( based on so many other scriptures ) that unless God elected some by his grace, then none would have ever come to the knowledge of the truth on their own! God knew man left to himself would be at enmity against him, truth, righteousness, etc.

I'm not saying this is all in God's foreknowledge that moved him to elect some to salvation/eternal life~but, without a doubt this is one truth that's included in his foreknowledge of all things.

 

[Eleanor]

Let me add this~my understanding of God's foreknowledge is: God who knows the end from the very beginning, or from eternity~knew perfectly that unless he decree man's salvation from sin and condemnation, then he knew NONE WOULD HAVE EVER BEEN SAVED. I believe in double predestination~it is impossible to accept one and not the other.

That's the way it has always seemed to me. The one necessarily has to mean the other.

When I read such scriptures as:


I understand that phrase to mean, ( based on so many other scriptures ) that unless God elected some by his grace, then none would have ever come to the knowledge of the truth on their own! God knew man left to himself would be at enmity against him, truth, righteousness, etc.

I'm not saying this is all in God's foreknowledge that moved him to elect some to salvation/eternal life~but, without a doubt this is one truth that's included in his foreknowledge of all things.

 

[makesends]

God's foreknowledge does not mean seeing down the corridors of time to "know in advance what is going to happen" (and then responding accordingly).
That is man's notion, not the Biblical notion.

In the Bible, God's foreknowledge means to "know in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen," no seeing down the corridors of time necessary.

"Known to the Lord for ages (foreknowledge) is his work." (Ac 15:18)

What you are actually saying is that God is not truly omniscient. What you are describing is a relatively new concept called "openess theology" in which God knowledge of the future is not complete; rather, it is limited to what He has decreed shall happen.

God is totally omniscient. Nothing happens apart from his will and decree.

No, Jim. She is NOT actually saying that. You would find it difficult to find someone more diametrically opposed to Open Theism than Eleanor.

You seem to presuppose that God only decrees certain things, and then you use that notion to translate what Eleanor said.

God knows EVERYTHING, because he predetermines (decrees) EVERYTHING. Not just per Scripture, but per logic, it is so, since God is first cause, from which ALL else descends causally, some things directly, and most things through means ('chain of cause-and-effect').

 

[JIM]

God knows EVERYTHING, because he predetermines (decrees) EVERYTHING. Not just per Scripture, but per logic, it is so, since God is first cause, from which ALL else descends causally, some things directly, and most things through means ('chain of cause-and-effect').

That God's foreknowledge derives from His decrees is what has come to be known as "openness theology", Your assertion that God predetermines (decrees) everything makes God the cause of evil.

 

[Eleanor]

That God's foreknowledge derives from His decrees is what has come to be known as "openness theology",

Surely you aren't saying that the omniscient God does not know all, which all is caused by his omnipotent decrees.

Your assertion that God predetermines (decrees) everything makes God the cause of evil.

Only when my mother's responsibility for bringing me into the world makes her responsible for my sinful acts.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

God knows EVERYTHING, because he predetermines (decrees) EVERYTHING. Not just per Scripture, but per logic, it is so, since God is first cause, from which ALL else descends causally, some things directly, and most things through means ('chain of cause-and-effect').

Really? The following statement can only be possible in a system where God is not in control of every little deed we do.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

You can't be sorry for what you planned to happen. Note I am not saying God is not a planner, but rather He has given man free will, He allows it.

 

[makesends]

Really? The following statement can only be possible in a system where God is not in control of every little deed we do.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

You can't be sorry for what you planned to happen. Note I am not saying God is not a planner, but rather He has given man free will, He allows it.

You must not have seen the reply I gave you last time you claimed this.

There is more than one way to see this written as it is, without denying that God is in control of every detail. You even say, "You can't be sorry for what you planned to happen", which is easy for me to counter. That sentence is on ludicrous on its face! I most certainly can be sorry for what I planned to happen!

Ok, to be fair, you were not talking about me. You were talking about God, or trying to; but it seemed you forgot who God is. You want to avoid all appearance that God is psychologically unstable, petulant and unpredictable, and I'm pleased you don't think of him that way. But you seem to think he is like us, and that he has moods like ours. —Do you really think God made man without knowing ahead what would happen, and that it would grieve him?

But you are right that God allows man to follow his own will. That is how he has set things up. Man always does what he wills to do, in every particular as God decreed.