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Misunderstanding Paul?

FutureAndAHope

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The reality is no matter what side a person takes on the Predestination/Free will argument. There is always a giving meaning to scriptures that appear to have a clear meaning to us in our English understanding. Both sides do this, people who believe in Predestination take the clear meaning of scriptures like 1 Timothy 2-4-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, 1 John 2:2 regarding God desiring the salvation of all men, or scripture like Jesus saying He desired to save people but they were not willing (Mathew 23:37), and change them to have "different" meanings. People who believe in free will have to equally wrestle with Paul’s writings, where he speaks of being predestined.

Due to taking the side of Free will. I will give another argument as to why I believe one should believe in the Free Agency of man, as opposed to God preselecting an elect group for salvation. Even the Bible states Paul’s writings can be misunderstood:

2Pe 3:14-16 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.


Peter tells us that “untaught” people twist Paul’s the scriptures, to their own destruction. But now I look to who should we consider “untaught”, anyone who did not have a link back to the Early Church. We have to consider ourselves “untaught”, all we have are Paul’s writings, and are separated by some 2000 years. That is why I think it wise to look to the Earliest Church Fathers, those separated by only a generation or two, from the apostles. If you do this you will see they have a vastly different view of topics like foreknowledge, and predestination. You will see they actually believed in Free Agency of man, or free will, not in any way ascribing a deterministic meaning to these terms. I will put a few of their words below so you can see what I mean.


First, we see Justin Martyr who speaks clearly opposing the view of Predestination.

Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 46-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...



Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

So if we look to those with a link to the Early Church, who we would consider "taught", they stand on the side of free agency, or free will.
 
The reality is no matter what side a person takes on the Predestination/Free will argument. There is always a giving meaning to scriptures that appear to have a clear meaning to us in our English understanding. Both sides do this, people who believe in Predestination take the clear meaning of scriptures like 1 Timothy 2-4-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, 1 John 2:2 regarding God desiring the salvation of all men, or scripture like Jesus saying He desired to save people but they were not willing (Mathew 23:37), and change them to have "different" meanings. People who believe in free will have to equally wrestle with Paul’s writings, where he speaks of being predestined.

Due to taking the side of Free will. I will give another argument as to why I believe one should believe in the Free Agency of man, as opposed to God preselecting an elect group for salvation. Even the Bible states Paul’s writings can be misunderstood:
So, you are going to show, what you think are good reasons, to believe man should have a little glory in salvation, and all the glory should not go to God? Okay,. 😞
 
The reality is no matter what side a person takes on the Predestination/Free will argument. There is always a giving meaning to scriptures that appear to have a clear meaning to us in our English understanding. Both sides do this, people who believe in Predestination take the clear meaning of scriptures like 1 Timothy 2-4-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, 1 John 2:2 regarding God desiring the salvation of all men, or scripture like Jesus saying He desired to save people but they were not willing (Mathew 23:37), and change them to have "different" meanings. People who believe in free will have to equally wrestle with Paul’s writings, where he speaks of being predestined.
No; the reality is that freewillers twist Scripture, on a regular basis, refusing to examine the context and, instead, proof-texting, apparently without the guilty conscience that should accompany such behaviour.

Freewillers do not "wrestle" with what the Bible says about predestination and election, they either ignore it, or distort it, (usually ignoring the context, as above).

Freewillers often claim that their out-of-context proof-texts have a "clear meaning", then refuse to accept correction, when the contextual realities are pointed out to them. Here's one example of this, from many.

2 Pet. 3:8,9 (VW)
8 But, beloved, do not be unaware of this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is longsuffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The freewiller frequently proof-texts verse 9, whilst ignoring the immediate context. When it is pointed out that Peter is referring to God's beloved elect and that it is us to whom God is long-suffering, not having purposed any of us to perish, but all of us to come to repentance (which is exactly what happens), does the freewiller admit that he's wrong? No, of course not! He either continues to ignore verse 8 (and the contrast, introduced, by "But...", at the start of verse 8, with the preceding verses, which were about unbelievers), and keeps going on about verse 9, as if the preceding context did not exist; or, he changes the subject and moves on to other proof-texts.

I've seen this kind of thing over and over and over again; so much so, in fact, that I very doubt the honesty and integrity of many freewillers.
 
Peter tells us that “untaught” people twist Paul’s the scriptures, to their own destruction. But now I look to who should we consider “untaught”, anyone who did not have a link back to the Early Church. We have to consider ourselves “untaught”, all we have are Paul’s writings, and are separated by some 2000 years. That is why I think it wise to look to the Earliest Church Fathers, those separated by only a generation or two, from the apostles. If you do this you will see they have a vastly different view of topics like foreknowledge, and predestination. You will see they actually believed in Free Agency of man, or free will, not in any way ascribing a deterministic meaning to these terms. I will put a few of their words below so you can see what I mean.
A person can do that if they desire to but it is not likely to arrive at anything more than confusion and one simply choosing whatever seems most likely, or that they most like. End up in the same boat in other words. Though the history is interesting and informative.

The Bible interprets itself. It would be better to spend the time spent elsewhere, going to the first source in a systematic way.
 
Some interesting readings.......

Did John Calvin Believe in Free Will?​


While this is a reasonably short easy read I'll get to the nuts and bolts for thos who
disdain reading articles.

The Verdict Is In

So did Calvin believe in free will? That all depends on the meaning. If by free will one means that the unbeliever is in no way necessitated by sin, but has it in his power to either do good or evil toward God, then the answer is no. But if one means that the unbeliever is in total bondage to sin, sinning willfully yet under necessity (not coercion), making him utterly dependent upon God’s irresistible grace to liberate him, then Calvin is your man.

All that to say, next time you are eavesdropping on an enticing theological conversation you can add some insight into the mumbo jumbo, and, like a good reformer, take your listeners back to the source himself. Ad fontes!

THEN

https:www.crossway.org/articles/5-myths-about-calvinism/

Myth 1: We don’t have free will.​

The Westminster Confession of Faith, the predominant confessional statement of Reformed theology in the English-speaking world, has a whole chapter called “Of Free Will.” Here is the first section of that chapter, in its entirety:

WCF 9.1 God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.
The chapter on God’s providence likewise says that when God ordains what will come to pass, “neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes [a category that includes the human will] taken away, but rather established” (WCF 3.1).

This myth arises from historical changes of language. Today, the phrase “free will” refers to moral responsibility. It means people are not just puppets of exterior natural forces like their heredity and environment. But in the sixteenth century, at the very beginning of the Reformation, one of the key debates was over “free will” in a completely different sense. The question then was whether the will was, by nature, enslaved by sin and in captivity to Satan. Believing in “free will” meant believing that human beings are not born as slaves of Satan. Denying “free will” meant believing that they are. Calvin even called the slavery of the will to Satan “voluntary slavery.”

The Christ-life that the Spirit puts into us lives into ever more abundant knowledge, power, self-control, self-givingness, pleasure, contentment and joy.

AND last... for today.


Six Ways That John Calvin Speaks about Free Will​

August 26, 2020 by wagraham 7 Comments

John Calvin speaks about free will in the following six ways:

1. Adam had free will and freely chose to sin.

2. Adam lost free will because free will requires the mind to deliberate and to discern good from evil before choosing one of these ends. In this sense, free will no longer exists in humans because our natures have become corrupted.

3. Yet all people by nature have an impulse toward the good. This impulse, however, is an animal impulse which does not follow from reason deliberating between good and evil and choosing one or the other (a requirement for free will; Inst. 2.2.26).

4. The regenerate have free will restored to them in part now, and then in full in heaven.

5. As a consequence, fallen people lack the ability to do good (since that requires free will). Fallen people then only do moral evil (since the impulse towards good seems, for Calvin, to be vice since not rational).

6. When fallen people sin then, they do so by necessity but not by compulsion (Inst. 2.3.5). In this way, Calvin seeks to affirm that humans sin willingly without compulsion, even if they necessarily sin.

As a side note, he follows the logic of Bernard of Clairvaux and Augustine as he distinguishes how people willingly sin apart from compulsion yet do so by a necessity of nature (remember: free will requires reason to distinguish good from evil before the will chooses it; Adam lost us this creaturely capacity, and so our nature is totally corrupt in all its faculties. Now, we do good by animal impulse not reasonable choice).
 
Some interesting readings.......

Did John Calvin Believe in Free Will?​


While this is a reasonably short easy read I'll get to the nuts and bolts for thos who
disdain reading articles.



THEN

https:www.crossway.org/articles/5-myths-about-calvinism/



AND last... for today.

One of the problems with this kind of discussion is the definition of "free", in "free will". Those whom men call "Calvinists" do believe in biblical free will, but often do not call it that, because most freewillers think that you mean "libertarian free will", when you say "free will".

Libertarian Free Will (the kind that freewillers usually believe) is unbiblical nonsense. It is the teaching that man's will, whether fallen or not, is not determined by anything outside itself (not even other aspects of the person, e.g. his desires, knowledge, understanding, etc.).

Those whom men call "Calvinists" usually believe in "compatibilism", which teaches that God works all things according to the counsel of his own will and that man's will is free to act according to his nature (within the limits of ability and opportunity). This means that an unregenerate person will always sin, because that is always his strongest desire (even if his words/actions might sometimes appear righteous to an onlooker - God looks at the heart, and whatever is not of faith is sin).
 
One of the problems with this kind of discussion is the definition of "free", in "free will". Those whom men call "Calvinists" do believe in biblical free will, but often do not call it that, because most freewillers think that you mean "libertarian free will", when you say "free will".

Libertarian Free Will (the kind that freewillers usually believe) is unbiblical nonsense. It is the teaching that man's will, whether fallen or not, is not determined by anything outside itself (not even other aspects of the person, e.g. his desires, knowledge, understanding, etc.).

Those whom men call "Calvinists" usually believe in "compatibilism", which teaches that God works all things according to the counsel of his own will and that man's will is free to act according to his nature (within the limits of ability and opportunity). This means that an unregenerate person will always sin, because that is always his strongest desire (even if his words/actions might sometimes appear righteous to an onlooker - God looks at the heart, and whatever is not of faith is sin).
By the statement, "-God looks at the heart, and whatever is not of faith is sin", do you mean that God considers the nursing of her baby by an unregenerate woman a sin?
 
Those whom men call "Calvinists" usually believe in "compatibilism", which teaches that God works all things according to the counsel of his own will and that man's will is free to act according to his nature (within the limits of ability and opportunity). This means that an unregenerate person will always sin, because that is always his strongest desire (even if his words/actions might sometimes appear righteous to an onlooker - God looks at the heart, and whatever is not of faith is sin).
This reads as if a Calvinist believes that ..." man's will is free to act according to his nature (within the limits of ability and opportunity)"
is actually a controlled will. As the control is limited by ability and opportunity.

IOW... Somehow God , throughout ones life, always not only knows which fork one will take in the road, but influences it as well.

So when I say to someone I have unwavering faith in Jesus' shed blood for my sins... that I got saved by grace through faith, and I also live by grace through faith.... that is not my choice, but God implanting that thought within my mind? Or by providing that opportunity for me to accept?
 
By the statement, "-God looks at the heart, and whatever is not of faith is sin", do you mean that God considers the nursing of her baby by an unregenerate woman a sin?
Even the prayer of the wicked is sin. Essentially, every single thing that an unbeliever thinks, says or does is sin, because it is all done in unbelief.
 
This reads as if a Calvinist believes that ..." man's will is free to act according to his nature (within the limits of ability and opportunity)"
is actually a controlled will. As the control is limited by ability and opportunity.

IOW... Somehow God , throughout ones life, always not only knows which fork one will take in the road, but influences it as well.

So when I say to someone I have unwavering faith in Jesus' shed blood for my sins... that I got saved by grace through faith, and I also live by grace through faith.... that is not my choice, but God implanting that thought within my mind? Or by providing that opportunity for me to accept?
Faith is a gift from God, so that no-one may boast. God works all things according to the counsel of his own will.

Pro. 21:1 (WEB)
The king’s heart is in the LORD’s hand like the watercourses.
He turns it wherever he desires.

Since this is true for kings, how much more is it true for those with lesser status.

Acts 16:14 (WEB) A certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, one who worshipped God, heard us; whose heart the Lord opened to listen to the things which were spoken by Paul.

Even an OT believer like Lydia, had to have her heart opened, by the Lord, to heed what Paul said.
 
Even the prayer of the wicked is sin. Essentially, every single thing that an unbeliever thinks, says or does is sin, because it is all done in unbelief.
I really do think that is a pathetic view of God.
 
I really do think that is a pathetic view of God.
I'm sorry to hear that you think what the Bible says is "pathetic". May the Lord grant you repentance and genuine faith in him.
 
I don't think that, nor did I say that.

Thank you for that. But be assured, God has already done that.
Perhaps you have forgotten what you posted.

I posted that even the prayer of the wicked is sin; and that everything that an unbeliever (an unbeliever, is, by definition, a wicked rebel against God) thinks, says and does is sin.

Pro. 15:8 (KJV) The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Pro. 21:27
(KJV) The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?

Gen. 8:21 (KJV) And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Rom. 3:10-19 (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom. 14:23
(KJV) And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

As you can see, the Bible is very clear; and what I posted was taken straight from what it says. For you to reject my post, is to reject the biblical truths from which my post was taken.

I really do think that is a pathetic view of God.

It's very serious for a professing Christian to claim that the view of God agreeing with what God has inspired is "pathetic".
 
You posted:

Rom. 3:10-19 (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


According to your own described way of deciding truth, that must be talking about you also. Therefore, in spite of what you might think, the passage you posted there declares that you do not understand. And you don't even seek after God.
 
You posted:

Rom. 3:10-19 (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


According to your own described way of deciding truth, that must be talking about you also. Therefore, in spite of what you might think, the passage you posted there declares that you do not understand. And you don't even seek after God.
SMH!

Rom. 3:10-19 refers to the lost, which I would have thought was obvious. Everyone is lost, until he is saved, so it refers to everyone who is in a lost state.
 
SMH!

Rom. 3:10-19 refers to the lost, which I would have thought was obvious. Everyone is lost, until he is saved, so it refers to everyone who is in a lost state.

I was simply quoting the referenced passage.
 
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