Alternative meaning to the term Foreknown

[prism]

Really? The following statement can only be possible in a system where God is not in control of every little deed we do.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

You can't be sorry for what you planned to happen. Note I am not saying God is not a planner, but rather He has given man free will, He allows it.

That sounds like an anthropomorphism, where God expressions are in human terms that we may more easily understand.

 

[makesends]

That God's foreknowledge derives from His decrees is what has come to be known as "openness theology", Your assertion that God predetermines (decrees) everything makes God the cause of evil.

No. That Open Theism claims that God cannot foreknow what hasn't happened yet, shows it does not come from what @Eleanor believes, nor what I believe, nor what Calvinism and Reformed teach, nor what Christianity in general believes. It does, however, resemble the vague feeling that Arminianistic and Pelagian systems promote, that "God backs away from causation, even though he knows sin will happen, because he honors our free will".

I have heard claims that Reformed and Calvinism come from Gnosticism, but this is the first I've heard anything relating Open Theism as deriving from Calvinism. I don't think you will find many agreeing with you on that, though some might out of mere hatred for Calvinism.

 

[makesends]

That God's foreknowledge derives from His decrees is what has come to be known as "openness theology", Your assertion that God predetermines (decrees) everything makes God the cause of evil.

By the way. God's foreknowledge does not derive from his decrees, anyway. That is just a way people find themselves thinking of it. God's decree, God's creating, God's foreknowledge, God's 'plan' —are all one and the same thing: God's work.

 

[JIM]

By the way. God's foreknowledge does not derive from his decrees, anyway. That is just a way people find themselves thinking of it. God's decree, God's creating, God's foreknowledge, God's 'plan' —are all one and the same thing: God's work.

Yes. they are all God's work, but they are not all equivalent.

One of God's attributes seen in His relationship with His creation is omniscience. Like all of such attributes, His omniscience is perfect. . “The LORD is a God of knowledge” (1 Sam 2:3) is true without limits. He knows everything there is to know, and he is always conscious of all that he knows. His knowledge is total and perfect; he “knows all things” (1 John 3:20). “Great is our LORD and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite” (Ps 147:5). “There is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do” (Heb 4:13). “Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!” (Rom 11:33). As His omniscience is perfect, so also is His foreknowledge.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
By the way. God's foreknowledge does not derive from his decrees, anyway. That is just a way people find themselves thinking of it. God's decree, God's creating, God's foreknowledge, God's 'plan' —are all one and the same thing: God's work.

Yes. they are all God's work, but they are not all equivalent.

One of God's attributes seen in His relationship with His creation is omniscience. Like all of such attributes, His omniscience is perfect. . “The LORD is a God of knowledge” (1 Sam 2:3) is true without limits. He knows everything there is to know, and he is always conscious of all that he knows. His knowledge is total and perfect; he “knows all things” (1 John 3:20). “Great is our LORD and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite” (Ps 147:5). “There is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do” (Heb 4:13). “Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!” (Rom 11:33). As His omniscience is perfect, so also is His foreknowledge.

What does your paragraph do to show that they are not all equivalent?

Of course God's attributes are without limits.

But your reasoning and your references do not show what you wish them to. I would argue that the usual notion of free will logically must conclude: That God did NOT have perfect omniscience, since he is good and since he is love etc, yet he created anyway, so he must not have known what would happen.

But as to your assessment that they are not all equivalent, and concerning what I think you intended to show by example in your paragraph (which it fails to show), the Bible often, for the sake of our understanding, presents attributes of God, because that is what we see, and because we can't handle the whole matter together at once. But God is not made of parts. All of his attributes are him. One. It is we who have to describe him in categories, because we must, in order to speak cogently.

 

[JIM]

.But God is not made of parts.

Oh good grief, who said anything about God being made of parts?

 

[JIM]

But your reasoning and your references do not show what you wish them to.

It is obvious that you haven't the slightest clue to what I wished to show by my reasoning and references.

 

[makesends]

Oh good grief, who said anything about God being made of parts?

Our descriptions of God necessarily consider him as though he is, to exaggerate the point to make the point, an accumulation of parts. "Attributes", we usually call them. We consider them separately when in fact they are not separate from one another. God is all of them, not composed of them.

 

[makesends]

It is obvious that you haven't the slightest clue to what I wished to show by my reasoning and references.

So maybe you'd condescend to enlighten me as to what you wished to show by your reasoning and references in that paragraph.

 

[JIM]

Our descriptions of God necessarily consider him as though he is, to exaggerate the point to make the point, an accumulation of parts. "Attributes", we usually call them. We consider them separately when in fact they are not separate from one another. God is all of them, not composed of them.

Maybe that is why the Calvinist view of God is so screwed up.

 

[JIM]

So maybe you'd condescend to enlighten me as to what you wished to show by your reasoning and references in that paragraph.

I did just that, but it is your own blindness that keeps you in the dark.

 

[atpollard]

What God does is fair. If he temporarily hardened the Jews, so the gentiles could receive life, how is that wrong?

Just out of personal curiosity ... How long is "temporarily" in the above example?
[I am attempting to evaluate "fair" in human generations of Jews with no chance to believe.]

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Our descriptions of God necessarily consider him as though he is, to exaggerate the point to make the point, an accumulation of parts. "Attributes", we usually call them. We consider them separately when in fact they are not separate from one another. God is all of them, not composed of them.

Maybe that is why the Calvinist view of God is so screwed up.

When I said, "Our", I did not mean Calvinists, but believers in general, and philosophers, and you in particular. I included myself.

Or do you mean to say that Calvinism is screwed up for believing God is all his attributes, and not composed of them?

 

[makesends]

I did just that, but it is your own blindness that keeps you in the dark.

Ok.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Just out of personal curiosity ... How long is "temporarily" in the above example?
[I am attempting to evaluate "fair" in human generations of Jews with no chance to believe.]

I am not 100% sure what Paul is referring to. But it would appear to not be a blindness to death.

Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

 

[Reformedguy]

But that does not mean God creates wicked people.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Justin is right.

Sure God has an ultimate plan for people who choose wickedness, as he does for those who choose what is right.

As we see with Ahab:

1Ki 21:20-22 So Ahab said to Elijah, "Have you found me, O my enemy?" And he answered, "I have found you, because you have sold yourself to do evil in the sight of the LORD: 'Behold, I will bring calamity on you. I will take away your posterity, and will cut off from Ahab every male in Israel, both bond and free. I will make your house like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, because of the provocation with which you have provoked Me to anger, and made Israel sin.'

God did not "will" into existence Ahab's evil, Ahab chose evil, so provoked God to anger.

Sinners don't start out wicked, they are not made blind by God, as Justin states, they become wicked once they reject God, that is when blindness occurs.

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The wicked are included in the "everything created". The evil were created for the day of evil. That's their purpose.

 

[Red Baker]

Maybe that is why the Calvinist view of God is so screwed up.

Jim, it is screwed up within your theology and understanding, but not according to the scriptures~the Calvinist are the only people that has a right understanding of the attributes of God and truly are the only ones that write on the subject with any worthwhile reading.

A.W. Pink has the very best book out on the sovereignty of God, the one by Baker house, not Banner of truth which has been watered down to make it more acceptable to modern man view of God. You ought to read it with an open heart.

 

[Red Baker]

The wicked are included in the "everything created". The evil were created for the day of evil. That's their purpose.

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4​

​

Give Jehovah God glory! Fall before the King of heaven! Here are final and true answers to four of life’s greatest questions: Where did all things come from? Why do they exist? Who is the true God? Why does evil exist? This single sentence is worth your weight in gold! Humble yourself before this axiom from heaven and learn wisdom for life!

Proverbs is of little value, if you miss this. The beginning of wisdom requires grasping this proverb (Pr 1:7; 9:10). This verse should be one of the first children memorize. Here is the Bible worldview. From this foundation of knowledge, you can reason safely and sanely about other aspects of life. If you neglect or reject the truth here, your life will be a nightmare of confusion, and then you will meet an angry God (Ps 7:11; Amos 4:12).

Where did all things come from? God made all things. Evolution is a lie, told by God-haters, to discredit the Bible. The Bible says: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen 1:1). This is more certain than any fact you will ever hear. If you do not have the faith to believe it, you are unreasonably stupid (II Thess 3:2; I Tim 6:20-21).

It is a sign of insanity to begin your reasoning about the universe from a big bang of chaotic gases. Where did the gases come from? How did an explosion bring order and beauty out of chaos? How did the result include reproducing identically after each kind? How did it result in millions of different kinds, all reproducing after their own kind?

Jesus Christ, the Mighty God, made all things. The Bible is plain: “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). You should not argue creation versus evolution with unbelievers. Unless they have faith, they cannot learn anything of value, especially if educated. An arrogant man flattered with education and degrees is worse than a fool (Pr 26:12; I Cor 1:19-20; 3:19-20; I Tim 6:3-5).

The only big bang this universe ever felt was the shocking force of God’s words, “Let there be light!” And there was light! Even without a sun, moon, or stars for three days! He made all things, and He made them out of nothing. By faith you not only may know this fact, you may understand it also (Heb 11:3). Man is nothing more than a vessel of the divine Potter. Grasp this first answer thoroughly, and you are on your way to wisdom.

Consider what makes a person. Parents, height, nationality, intelligence, looks, time of birth, strength, race, coordination, personality, and opportunities make a person. God chose every one of these for you, without consulting you at all. He did not ask you a single question about your preferences. He chose them Himself! He gave you existence, a very personal thing, and the pain and trouble it brings, without asking you. You cannot even end your existence. You will eventually have to deal with Him. He is God.

You are fearfully and wonderfully made, but so are all His creatures (Ps 139:14). You are not special. You are certainly not special, because you are human, as humanists suggest. God is special, and you owe Him all that you are and have. Reject the folly of self-love and self-esteem (II Tim 3:1-2). Lift your eyes up to heaven, and bless and extol the most High. Read the greatest king’s personal testimony about meeting God (Dan 4:1-37).

 

[Mr GLee]

Justin Martyr and his usage of Foreknown, Foreknew​

The following are quotes are taken from Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] as found in the eBook of Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1 (Rev. Dods 1867*E1). They show the meaning that was applied to the phrase.

Not made Wicked by God​

We see the terms usage by Justin Martyr in the passages that follow, foreknow his text shows does not mean God made some wicked, he says that the wicked can seek repentance and find it. This is contry to the Calvanistic idea that "b. God predestines certain souls to salvation and, esp. in Calvinism, others to damnation" (Collins 2023*W0). So predestination, or foreknowledge can not mean God assigns some to salvation and some to damnation.

I would say that one way to look at it

I would offer. . Foreknow. .as a law not subject to change writen in two books from the foundation of the world.spoken of in Revelation The six day God did work his faithful labor of love .Let there be . . . .

Two is the word used to reveal God has spoken The law of faith. (1) "let there be" and (2) "the beasts of the field where good". . . Before the fall. When the spirit of false prophecy Lucifer caused doubt when he said in effect you will not really die look at my beauty and live .Why believe in a God not seen ? Cut off its beautiful legs

Mankind did the will of a spirit of false prophet, false apostle Satan. Not sent by God .

Jesus taught the disciples of the food Adam should've eaten. . no winds of false doctrines. . the power to both hear the will and power to move to finish

John 4:33-34King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[Red Baker]

Continue from above....


If a person does not believe God made all things, there is no reason discussing anything of any importance with him. He has chosen a worldview of insanity, reasoning in a circle from his own imagination. How will you settle anything with him? He has the same answer for all questions – because I think so. He cannot know anything for certain, for his foundation rests on the thin air of speculative hallucinations that he calls theories.

Why do things exist? Why is the universe here? Why is man here? Why are you here? God made all things, and He made them for Himself! Give glory! Worship Him! Sing praise to Him! “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created” (Rev 4:11). You will soon bow to this Blessed and Only Potentate (Phil 2:9-11; I Tim 6:13-16).

These first two answers are so true, you should say, “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen” (Rom 11:36). He is the First Cause of all things, and He is the Final End of all things. All things were created by Him and for Him (Col 1:16). Fall before Him now. Give Him the honor and praise due to His name.

The universe exists because God wanted to make something for Himself. He did not make the world for man; He made the world and man for Himself. You do not exist for yourself, nor does anything else exist for you; you and all things exist for His pleasure. It is time to humble yourself and see the purpose of your existence – the glory of God. If you rebel against this fact, or even neglect it, you will have hell to pay, now and later.

Why do elephants have long noses? For you to praise God for His creativity! Why do giraffes have long necks? For the same reason! Why can a blue sky with white clouds and a warm sun make your heart sing? For the glory of God! Why do baboons not pull their hairy pants all the way up? For you to laugh with God! What is the value of a zoo? It is for family worship – to praise God and ridicule Charles Darwin and Stephen Hawking.

Why are ostriches stupid? For you to know God made dumb things (Job 39:13-18)! Why are horses wonderful? For God to brag about them (Job 39:19-25)! Why does a woman’s body have curves that take a man’s breath away (Song 4:1-7; 7:1-9)? For the praise of His work with a rib! Why are there rainbows? To remind you God keeps His promises (Gen 12:9-17)! Give Him glory, reader. Praise Him this minute to fulfill your existence.

If you are short, fat, ugly, and stupid, God made you that way for Himself. You know He did not make you that way for you. You wish you were tall, thin, attractive, and smart. He made the baboon for Himself, and He made you for Himself. Give Him glory! Horrible parents, few opportunities in life, and poor health are also His choices. It is a key to happiness to learn and accept this knowledge. Whatever you have, and whatever you do not have, are both by God’s choice for His own glory. Thank Him! Worship Him!

Even Satan was made for the glory of God. God allowed him, as part of His eternal purpose, to rebel in pride, so He could display His wrath and power in Satan’s eternal punishment. God was not surprised by his rebellion. Satan and his angels shall be cast into everlasting fire, prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Mat 25:41). The smoke of his torment and that of his followers will be incense in heaven (Rev 14:10-11).

Pharaoh was conceived easily, survived childbirth, and avoided the diseases that took the lives of many Egyptian children. He graduated at the top of his class, won several victories leading the army, and was chosen from numerous siblings to be ruler of Egypt. While king, the nation prospered and became powerful. He was a success at anything he tried. His glory and power increased. He became the greatest monarch on earth. Why?

Where did Pharaoh come from? What was the source of his unique ambition, personality, dreams, and successes? God made him, and God promoted him to the top of Egyptian power by arranging the events of his life. Why did God do this? To destroy him in the Red Sea to magnify Himself (Ex 9:16; Rom 9:17)! God did not make Pharaoh wicked; but God did raise this wicked man up to destroy Him wonderfully for the praise of His own reputation. If you do not know these things, you do not know the God of the Bible.

Who is the true God? The LORD is His name! What does LORD mean? It is the English designation for the sacred Hebrew tetragrammaton, JHVH, which stands for I AM THAT I AM, which you pronounce as Jehovah! Allah is merely the moon god of hallucinating Arabians; Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva are merely three of the Hindu imagined deities.

The LORD Jehovah is the true God. He is the only God. He looked for other gods, but He could not find any. He alone is God. He created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them in six days. He is independent of all His creatures. He is infinite by any measure. He is eternal, immortal, invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

Why does evil exist? Some believe the first three answers. They believe Jehovah created all things for Himself. But they limit His dominion by suggesting that wicked men and their sinful actions are outside His plan and control. To correct this false notion, Solomon immediately included even the wicked and their judgment in Jehovah’s creating of all things for Himself. Even wicked men and their eventual destruction are for God’s glory.

Evil exists because God gave Satan a free will. Rather than be content with his office, he swelled up in pride (I Tim 3:6). God gave him privilege and freedom, and he used it to rebel against his Creator. The blessed God was not surprised or disappointed; Satan is responsible for his wicked deed; God is righteous in destroying him forever for his sin.

Where does suffering come from? Satan brought his rebellion to earth. He lied to your first parents, and Adam chose his foolish wife over God. Jehovah made man very good in a perfect world, but man corrupted the earth by sinning against His Maker (Gen 1:31; 3:16-19; Eccl 7:29). Adam chose the curse of sin for his family over Paradise with God. The whole creation groans in pain, travail, and death due to his sin (Rom 5:12-14; 8:22).

Evolutionists cannot explain death. It should have evolved away long ago, since it is the most dreaded and hated thing in life. If a slimy salamander can evolve to be a bald eagle, then surely man could have evolved death away. Death is the wages of sin. And the Bible teaches this fact clearly, which no evolutionist will ever find in a test tube or telescope. God created death, in several forms, as just punishment for sin. Therefore, all men die.

Adam’s sin in the Garden of Eden did not surprise or confuse the LORD. He had planned the entrance of sin into the human family, though Adam freely chose Eve over God without any coercion at all. Adam alone is responsible for his sin and the consequences. God made him perfect, warned him, and gave him only one commandment to keep. God had planned the entrance of sin for the ultimate display of both his wrath and mercy.

Depraved children of Adam, with hearts in all-out rebellion against God and morality, commit atrocities daily. You hear and read about them. They, nor their atrocities, surprise or confuse the LORD. He made them as surely as any creature. He restrains their wickedness, so all they can do is what He will use for Himself (Ps 76:10). They never think about God at all (Ps 10:4); they only want to satisfy themselves (James 1:13-16).