Alternative meaning to the term Foreknown

[Red Baker]

Continue from above....

The blessed and holy God does not make men sin, but He does control and use their sins for wise and righteous purposes. God is perfectly holy and good. Man chooses sin willfully against the light of nature and warnings from God and men. God never puts sinful lusts in men, for He does not need to. They are so full of lust and wickedness, all He needs to do is lift His restraining mercy, and any man will do anything. Believe it!

He controls and directs all wickedness in the universe to His own praise and glory. Even the devil must obtain permission to touch a man or pig (Job 1:12; 2:6; Matt 8:31). He can keep a king from touching a woman (Gen 20:6), and he can use the offspring of incest for His glory (Gen 38:1-30). He used the envy of Joseph’s brothers to get him to Egypt (Gen 45:5; 50:20), and He used Roman cruelty to crucify His Son on a tree (John 18:31-32).

When God needs to reveal His wrath and power against sin, He looses men to rush greedily after their own lusts, and then He punishes them for it. About 1656 years after creation, He drowned the earth with a flood for their sins. He let Satan have David to number Israel, and He killed 70,000 men in punishment for their sins (II Sam 24:1-25). God controls and directs the sins of men and their punishment to magnify Himself.

King Sennacherib wanted to expand the Assyrian Empire and conquer neighboring nations; God used him to chasten the rebellious Israelites, and then He destroyed him for his arrogant presumption about doing it (Is 10:5-19). God used Jewish hatred for Jesus to bruise His only begotten Son for the sins of His elect, and then He miserably destroyed them by the Romans just 40 years later for that horrible crime. It was their wicked hands that crucified Him, but it was all according to His eternal purpose (Acts 2:23; 4:27-28).

Here is the wisdom of God’s saints. They are never alarmed or surprised by wicked men. They know the LORD made Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, and Idi Amin for Himself. He used their evil to accomplish holy and wise ends, and then He did, and will yet, punish them for their wickedness. If God used World War II to crush Germany for the blasphemous higher criticism coming out of that country, give Him glory. If He crushed Japan for their blasphemous worship of Hirohito, give Him glory.

You cannot know the secrets things of God’s eternal counsel, unless and until He reveals them (Rom 11:33-34). History reveals some secret things (II Sam 12:22-23), and so do His prophets, which recorded them for you in Scripture (Dan 2:27-30; Amos 3:7). Most of His secret purposes are far outside your ability to know or understand. But He has revealed many things for you to do, and these are for your children and you (Deut 29:29).

A great Day of Evil is coming, the Day of Judgment, in which all angels and men shall be judged. The wicked were created for this day, as the proverb declares. The “evil” is the misery and pain He will pour on them (Job 2:10; Is 45:7). He has eternally purposed to display His mercy on the elect and His wrath on the reprobates (I Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4).

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” (Rom 9:21-24).

Do not even think of questioning Him! It took Nebuchadnezzar seven years to learn He is above questioning (Dan 4:35). Paul, blasting those who might question God’s absolute sovereignty, wrote, “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?” (Rom 9:20). You should not even complain or question, if He made you without hands (Is 45:9). Rational men do not accuse their parents of error, much less should you accuse God (Is 45:10).

What should you do? “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil” (Eccl 12:13-14). Hear Solomon’s father, “Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah” (Ps 4:4). And, “Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth” (Ps 46:10).

Do you know you are wicked? There is one escape from the Day of Evil – salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ. God sent Him to save His people from their sins (Matt 1:21), and He will not lose one of them (John 6:39; 17:2). The elect were chosen out of wicked men by the grace of God and predestinated to eternal life (Rom 8:29-39; Eph 1:3-12). The gospel brings these facts to light (II Tim 1:9-10). To know you are one of His elect, fall before Him, beg for mercy, and rise up to obey His word (Acts 16:31; II Pet 1:10-11). By a friend of mine ~J.C. Crosby

 

[JIM]

Jim, it is screwed up within your theology and understanding, but not according to the scriptures~the Calvinist are the only people that has a right understanding of the attributes of God and truly are the only ones that write on the subject with any worthwhile reading.

A.W. Pink has the very best book out on the sovereignty of God, the one by Baker house, not Banner of truth which has been watered down to make it more acceptable to modern man view of God. You ought to read it with an open heart.

I have read Pink's view of sovereignty. It is essentially a view that makes God little more than a master puppeteer. He, unbiblically, equates God's sovereignty with causation. He basically argues that the only way for God to be sovereign is if he is the sole, ultimate cause or originator of everything that takes place, including events in the natural world as well as human decisions. Since God must be the ultimate cause of even human decisions, there is no truly free will. If a creature were truly free in the sense that he were able to originate an action, then God would not be the sole originator of all things and therefore would not be sovereign, says this view. He would be placed in the position of having to react to something outside himself. But a sovereign God must always act, and never react. Nothing about God—his knowledge, his decisions, his acts—can be conditioned on anything outside himself. Thus everything that comes to pass is part of God’s one original plan, his eternal decree, which is both all-embracing and efficacious. The history of creation is simply God’s sovereign enactment of this plan or decree.

I am sorry, Red, that is just wrong.

 

[Red Baker]

I have read Pink's view of sovereignty. It is essentially a view that makes God little more than a master puppeteer. He, unbiblically, equates God's sovereignty with causation. He basically argues that the only way for God to be sovereign is if he is the sole, ultimate cause or originator of everything that takes place, including events in the natural world as well as human decisions. Since God must be the ultimate cause of even human decisions, there is no truly free will. If a creature were truly free in the sense that he were able to originate an action, then God would not be the sole originator of all things and therefore would not be sovereign, says this view. He would be placed in the position of having to react to something outside himself. But a sovereign God must always act, and never react. Nothing about God—his knowledge, his decisions, his acts—can be conditioned on anything outside himself. Thus everything that comes to pass is part of God’s one original plan, his eternal decree, which is both all-embracing and efficacious. The history of creation is simply God’s sovereign enactment of this plan or decree.

I am sorry, Red, that is just wrong.

I wish you would take his book by Baker House and quote what you are saying and let us look at it.

 

[JIM]

I wish you would take his book by Baker House and quote what you are saying and let us look at it.

Pink, like most Calvinist authors, refuse to accept the fact that God's sovereignty allows Him to respond rather than simply cause. To do otherwise would be to admit that God has given man's free will and that would of course violate so much of the Calvinist/Reformed doctrine.

 

[Red Baker]

Pink, like most Calvinist authors, refuse to accept the fact that God's sovereignty allows Him to respond rather than simply cause. To do otherwise would be to admit that God has given man's free will and that would of course violate so much of the Calvinist/Reformed doctrine.

Jim, God's sovereignty does both~depending on the situation.

Again, God created Adam and Eve with a free will, and then left them to their free will, and we all know the result of that, they did not last more than a few minutes~we say this because God alone is immutable and cannot sin, and cannot be tempted to do so.

Jesus Christ was sent into the world, in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh ~ he alone being the Son of God by being begotten of him was tempted in all points like as we are, yet never sin. We were in him legally by God's election of pure grace, and his obedience and righteousness was freely put to our account as though we ourselves perform the obedience. He acted on our behalf as our surety before God's law. In the eyes of God law, we are just as righteous and pure as the Son of God, that is, in our new man.

Our old man is in bondage to Satan, sin, and this present world, that includes our will, and all that's included in our wills~the new man is not in bondage ( nor his will ) and can do the will of God ~ not only can do, but delights in doing so, and grieves our spirits when we do not live according to God's law, and makes us ashamed of our sins and shortcomings.

 

[Reformedguy]

That God's foreknowledge derives from His decrees is what has come to be known as "openness theology", Your assertion that God predetermines (decrees) everything makes God the cause of evil.

Pink, like most Calvinist authors, refuse to accept the fact that God's sovereignty allows Him to respond rather than simply cause. To do otherwise would be to admit that God has given man's free will and that would of course violate so much of the Calvinist/Reformed doctrine.

His response is part of what is determined.

 

[JIM]

His response is part of what is determined.

If His response is determined, then what He is responding to must also have been determined. Thus in the case of His response to evil, then He is the cause of evil. Then if his response to evil, e.g., sin is eternal condemnation, then He must be the cause of sin. I reject that totally. And so should you and so should folks like Pink. But folks like Pink are at the heart of such really bad theology.

 

[Reformedguy]

If His response is determined, then what He is responding to must also have been determined. Thus in the case of His response to evil, then He is the cause of evil. Then if his response to evil, e.g., sin is eternal condemnation, then He must be the cause of sin. I reject that totally. And so should you and so should folks like Pink. But folks like Pink are at the heart of such really bad theology.

Exactly. The fall was determined and His response was determined.

Depends on what kind of cause are you referring to? Ultimate? Sufficient? Efficient?

 

[Red Baker]

If His response is determined, then what He is responding to must also have been determined. Thus in the case of His response to evil, then He is the cause of evil.

Jim, God did decree creation knowing the end from the from the beginning. His foreknowledge of all is not the cause of all things, except where His grace toward sinners, kept them from perishing like those whom God left in their sins.

The elect were elected based on God's foreknowledge~that foreknowledge mentioned by Peter is to be understood of God KNOWING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, that if he had not preserved some from the fall, then none would have ever been saved from sin and condemnation.

By allowing creation, and placing our first parents in a beautiful world with all they need to continue in the glorious state in which they were created does not make God the author of their sin. Their sin was their own! He was not under obligation to secure Adam and Eve, or even the fallen angels. Under the new covenant he has secured our salvation by two immutable acts~his holy oath and his promises of GRACE, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ. No so under the Adamic covenant!

 

[JIM]

Exactly. The fall was determined and His response was determined.

No, Adam's disobedience was not determined. It was foreknown and allowed. Foreknown and allowed is not the same as determined. The failure to recognize and accept that fact is one of the very serious failures of a large segment of Reformed thinkers.

 

[JIM]

Jim, God did decree creation knowing the end from the from the beginning. His foreknowledge of all is not the cause of all things, except where His grace toward sinners, kept them from perishing like those whom God left in their sins.

Red, God's foreknowledge is not the cause of anything. Foreknowledge is not causative. His foreknowledge can be a reason for some of His actions, but reason is not cause.

The elect were elected based on God's foreknowledge~that foreknowledge mentioned by Peter is to be understood of God KNOWING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, that if he had not preserved some from the fall, then none would have ever been saved from sin and condemnation.

I do not agree with that. That foreknowledge mentioned by Peter is more readily understood to be God knowing from before creation how each would respond to the Gospel message; the Gospel which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Room 1:16).

By allowing creation, and placing our first parents in a beautiful world with all they need to continue in the glorious state in which they were created does not make God the author of their sin. Their sin was their own! He was not under obligation to secure Adam and Eve, or even the fallen angels.

Agreed

Under the new covenant he has secured our salvation by two immutable acts~his holy oath and his promises of GRACE, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ. No so under the Adamic covenant!

I don't disagree, but I don't know what that has to do with the subject at hand. But then I suspect that what you consider to be His holy oath and His promises are a bit different from what I consider them to be.

 

[Red Baker]

No, Adam's disobedience was not determined. It was foreknown and allowed. Foreknown and allowed is not the same as determined. The failure to recognize and accept that fact is one of the very serious failures of a large segment of Reformed thinkers.

Agreed~But, your post to me above is wrong and I will answer you after a couple of meetings.

 

[Red Baker]

Red Baker said:
The elect were elected based on God's foreknowledge~that foreknowledge mentioned by Peter is to be understood of God KNOWING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, that if he had not preserved some from the fall, then none would have ever been saved from sin and condemnation.

I do not agree with that.

Of course you would not agree with this, since you are seeing the scriptures through the lens of arminianism~you just can't let loose of man having no part in his salvation from sin and condemnation, in spite of all the scriptures that tells us that the new birth is not by blood, nor the will of the flesh, or the will of man, but of God, period! Nor by co-operation of any of the two, or three.

John 1:13~"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

That foreknowledge mentioned by Peter is more readily understood to be God knowing from before creation how each would respond to the Gospel message

That Jim is nothing more than wishful thinking, or better, wishful dreaming!

the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16).

Jim you are not hearing that verse properly. Of course no aremian can, so, you are not alone.

Listen carefully to what Paul is actually saying:

Romans 1:16,17~"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

The gospel is indeed the power of God, but only to believers, to the rest it is nothing but pure foolishness! Verse 17 make sit even clearer when Paul added these words: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The gospel can only be revealed from a person who has faith to another person who has faith! It is impossible to reveal truths to a person not born again! The same truth is taught here:

1st Corinthians 1:17,18~"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The gospel is the power of God only to those born again. For in the gospel, born again children of God see and understand that the gospel of Jesus Christ secured free justification for the elect, based upon the oath and promises of God~ and through Jesus' faith and obedience.

Jim: I don't disagree, but I don't know what that has to do with the subject at hand. But then I suspect that what you consider to be His holy oath and His promises are a bit different from what I consider them to be.

Then you have floor, you tell me what it means.

 

[JIM]

Then you have floor, you tell me what it means.

I am going to answer you in a manner that I am sure you will not be happy with. Your post there is based completely on your (Calvinist) concept of "the elect". In that concept, the world, past, present and future, is composed of two sets of people, the elect and the non-elect (or reprobate). The division of mankind into those two sets was established by God even before the creation. And moreover, that division had nothing whatsoever to do with the individual, but according to R.C. Sproul, "The Reformed view of election, known as unconditional election, means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save".

Therefore, in the end, when Jesus returns and Judgment is rendered and each and every person either receives eternal life or eternal condemnation, that division will again, have nothing whatsoever to do with the individual, given that the "election" occurred before the existence of any individual. What then do you see as God's purpose for this creation? He could have created the "elect" individuals, granted them eternal life without the need for anything else in creation and the need for the vast numbers of reprobates pre-condemned eternally to hell. Hell was already a given, since that is to be the future abode of the fallen angels. Why the need to add a bunch of reprobate human beings to the flames? At least in the case of the fallen angels, their fate is due to their having chosen to follow Satan.

So then my answer to all you had to say there is that it was/is all based entirely on your (Calvinist) concept of "the elect". I find that concept non-biblical and repulsive and therefore I consider any theological position, such as that above, riding on that concept to be inappropriate and wrong.

 

[Red Baker]

I am going to answer you in a manner that I am sure you will not be happy with. Your post there is based completely on your (Calvinist) concept of "the elect". In that concept, the world, past, present and future, is composed of two sets of people, the elect and the non-elect (or reprobate). The division of mankind into those two sets was established by God even before the creation. And moreover, that division had nothing whatsoever to do with the individual, but according to R.C. Sproul, "The Reformed view of election, known as unconditional election, means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save".

Jim, you never even attempted to tell me what God's oath and promises has to do with anyone being saved from sin and condemnation. This was the very reason I said ~ " you have the floor and for you to tell me what that means". Afterall, the scriptures are very clear that a man's hope of eternal life lies totally in God's promises and his holy oath. Our salvation from sin and condemnation surely is not based on our works, including our faith, which is a work of the law. Besides, no man can believe until he is first quickened to life.

Jim, I have never read behind R.C. Sproul, though I know him and have glanced over a few articles by him when he was alive. Never been too impressed by him since he does believe in gospel means which I totally reject, it is nothing more than bringing the gospel into the back door instead of busting down the front door and shouting GRACE.... GRACE..... IS FREE... through Jesus' obedience and faith for those for whom he died for~He secured our free gift of eternal life promised before the world begun.

In that concept, the world, past, present and future, is composed of two sets of people, the elect and the non-elect (or reprobate).

Good, for that is according to the word of the Living God.

Jim, there are only two groups of people living in this world~ the believer and unbelievers; the just and the unjust; a chosen generation made righteous by the blood of the Lamb of God, and, if by his blood, then it is not by our works; and a generation of serpents, the reprobate whom God left in their sins.

Therefore, in the end, when Jesus returns and Judgment is rendered and each and every person either receives eternal life or eternal condemnation, that division will again, have nothing whatsoever to do with the individual, given that the "election" occurred before the existence of any individual.

It truly goes back to the first Adam and Jesus Christ, whom the scriptures calls the second Adam. Romans 5:12-21. What Adam did truly represents what "all would have done" being in his position~A man of flesh and blood, living in a perfect world with all available at his disposal to serve his eternal happiness, with only one commandment to keep in order to continue receiving God's best for him, and he sinned. God in his infinite wisdom made Adam the head of all his posterity, so his sin was imputed to his posterity~even though we all would have done the same, so God chose the doctrine of imputation. If you think otherwise, then look at all that came through his loins!

He could have created the "elect" individuals, granted them eternal life without the need for anything else in creation and the need for the vast numbers of reprobates pre-condemned eternally to hell. Hell was already a given, since that is to be the future abode of the fallen angels. Why the need to add a bunch of reprobate human beings to the flames?

Are you saying you have a better way that God should have done this? There would be much about God that we would have never known apart from the way he chose to do what he did. I can give you a list of some of his attribute we would never have known apart for God doing exactly what he has done and will yet do.

At least in the case of the fallen angels, their fate is due to their having chosen to follow Satan.

It is due to the very same fate as mankind! God secured some of the angels he created by electing them~1st Timothy 5:21... Others, he left to themselves, and even angels in their glorious created state could not keep themselves in God's favor! There's only one immutable glorious infinite Being and his name is JEHOVAH. We learn this from the fall of both man and angels.

So then my answer to all you had to say there is that it was/is all based entirely on your (Calvinist) concept of "the elect".

You had the floor and this is what you have to say? Jim, you are of great age, you need to do better than this to convince any that your position is biblical, and really to convince yourself. Your arguments are weak and with no scriptures to support you,

I find that concept non-biblical and repulsive and therefore I consider any theological position, such as that above, riding on that concept to be inappropriate and wrong.

Then if you find what I have said to be inappropriate and wrong, then that tells me that you find Paul and Jesus to be the same.

Romans 9:7-24; Ephesians 1:4; 1st Thessalonians 1:4, 1st Peter 1:1, and 2nd Peter 1 are front-loaded with the doctrine of election.

John 16:16~"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

So much more could be said, but enough for now.

 

[JIM]

Then if you find what I have said to be inappropriate and wrong, then that tells me that you find Paul and Jesus to be the same.

And it tells me that it is you and your fellow Calvinists that read Paul, Jesus, and the rest of God's word wrong. You posit a character and behavior for God that is completely unacceptable by the standards that He presents.

 

[Reformedguy]

No, Adam's disobedience was not determined. It was foreknown and allowed. Foreknown and allowed is not the same as determined. The failure to recognize and accept that fact is one of the very serious failures of a large segment of Reformed thinkers.

Sure it was. What was God's purpose in creating the garden with the tree of good and evil? Allowing the serpent yo tempt eve? God is omniscient. He knew the outcome correct??

 

[ReverendRV]

Sure it was. What was God's purpose in creating the garden with the tree of good and evil? Allowing the serpent yo tempt eve? God is omniscient. He knew the outcome correct??

Simplicity!

 

[TMSO]

Sure it was. What was God's purpose in creating the garden with the tree of good and evil? Allowing the serpent yo tempt eve? God is omniscient. He knew the outcome correct??

Add to that why Ephesians 1? Why, before He even got around to creating the world, did He foreordain some to the adoption of children through Christ to Himself, and as such, chose them to live holy and blameless? If God intended from the start that the creation would always be holy and blameless, then why this? And then, if God had intended to leave all this up to chance, why this? Would He not wait until Adam fails?

[The mysteries of the depths of God's sovereignty, and His position as Creator over the created. I believe Paul put it best. Just who do you think you are to talk back at God? (paraphrased...)