A free-willy

[DialecticSkeptic]

Yes, I can agree with that.

You have, then, a theological problem that needs solving. If your interpretation holds—that God's just wrath against the sins of all humans indiscriminately was satisfied and turned away—then there should be no hell as a place where the cup of God's wrath is poured out. The verse would need to say something like, "Jesus CAN BE the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." I suppose that is the next line of questioning: Was his atoning sacrifice complete or incomplete?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You have, then, a theological problem that needs solving. If your interpretation holds—that God's just wrath against the sins of all humans indiscriminately was satisfied and turned away—then there should be no hell as a place where the cup of God's wrath is poured out. The verse would need to say something like, "Jesus CAN BE the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." I suppose that is the next line of questioning: Was his atoning sacrifice complete or incomplete?

God's wrath is turned away from all men, giving them "all" a chance at life. People still have to choose to follow God to have it applied.

But look at the scripture:

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The whole world is included. All of us, every man, every person. If you feel the only way the sacrifice can be complete is for it to cause/result in salvation, then you have a theological problem. Because that does not happen for the whole world.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

God's wrath is turned away from all men, giving them all a chance at life.

It is not merely turned away. Rather, it is turned away BECAUSE the cross of Christ took away the guilt of, and satisfied the justice of God for, all those for whom he died.

Now, that is for either (a) all the sins of all men, or (b) all the sins of some men, or (c) some sins of all men.

If it is the first, then universalism is true. If it is the second, then Calvinism is true. If it is the third—well, that would violate so many scriptures.

People still have to choose to follow God to have it applied.

What if Smith never chooses to follow God? Presumably, you believe he would end up in hell—but for what? If Christ died for all his sins, then he is not in hell for any sin.

So, what would Smith be in hell for?

Remember, it says that Christ IS the propitiation, not that he CAN BE.

[1 John 2:2 says] the whole world is included. All of us, every man, every person.

That is the interpretation you are defending, and it has this serious problem which we are exploring. I do not agree with that interpretation.

If you feel the only way the sacrifice can be complete is for it to cause/result in salvation, then you have a theological problem—because that does not happen for the whole world.

Yes, it does happen for the whole world. Our disagreement is about the scope: You think it's the whole world without exception, whereas I think it's the whole world without distinction.

Jesus said, "I have other sheep that are not of this fold." He is referring to Gentiles who would believe. Crucial to our discussion here, Jesus also said, "I lay down my life for the sheep"—and to certain others he said, "You are not my sheep." In other words, they are not included in those for whom he died.

So, his atoning sacrifice was absolutely for the whole world without distinction—namely, he died for not only the Jewish sheep but also the Gentile sheep, and gathered them all together into one flock, the bride of Christ. The sheep are scattered throughout every nation, tribe, language and people (John 11:51-52)—the whole world.

And that salvation is complete and assured. "It is finished." He will not lose a single one of the sheep the Father has given to him. Not a single one. "For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day" (John 6:38-39).

Where is the theological problem with this view?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

It is not merely turned away. Rather, it is turned away BECAUSE the cross of Christ took away the guilt of, and satisfied the justice of God for, all those for whom he died.

Now, that is for either (a) all the sins of all men, or (b) all the sins of some men, or (c) some sins of all men.

If it is the first, then universalism is true. If it is the second, then Calvinism is true. If it is the third—well, that would violate so many scriptures.




What if Smith never chooses to follow God? Presumably, you believe he would end up in hell—but for what? If Christ died for all his sins, then he is not in hell for any sin.

So, what would Smith be in hell for?

Remember, it says that Christ IS the propitiation, not that he CAN BE.




That is the interpretation you are defending, and it has this serious problem which we are exploring. I do not agree with that interpretation.




Yes, it does happen for the whole world. Our disagreement is about the scope: You think it's the whole world without exception, whereas I think it's the whole world without distinction.

Jesus said, "I have other sheep that are not of this fold." He is referring to Gentiles who would believe. Crucial to our discussion here, Jesus also said, "I lay down my life for the sheep"—and to certain others he said, "You are not my sheep." In other words, they are not included in those for whom he died.

So, his atoning sacrifice was absolutely for the whole world without distinction—namely, he died for not only the Jewish sheep but also the Gentile sheep, and gathered them all together into one flock, the bride of Christ. The sheep are scattered throughout every nation, tribe, language and people (John 11:51-52)—the whole world.

And that salvation is complete and assured. "It is finished." He will not lose a single one of the sheep the Father has given to him. Not a single one. "For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day" (John 6:38-39).

Where is the theological problem with this view?

But who are Jesus's sheep? Obviously, those who are not His sheep are blind to the truth. But how does this blindness occur? Look at how Jesus describes this.

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Your thought is that God chooses to "randomy" enlighten the elect, they then have the power to obey. But that is not the order Jesus speaks of enlightenment, so who are His sheep really? Those who obey.

a) God gives His word, and shows us grace
b) We either obey or disobey
c) God has love for those who obey
d) So God grants the obedient life

We see that obedience is teh factor in whether a person is one of GOd's sheep or not.

Joh 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

 

[David1701]

God's wrath is turned away from all men, giving them "all" a chance at life. People still have to choose to follow God to have it applied.

But look at the scripture:

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The whole world is included. All of us, every man, every person. If you feel the only way the sacrifice can be complete is for it to cause/result in salvation, then you have a theological problem. Because that does not happen for the whole world.

If God's wrath had been turned away from every single person, then, by definition, not one person would experience God's wrath thereafter; and there are Universalists (heretics) who teach this. They are wrong; but they are being logically consistent, unlike you.

A propitiation is not a sacrifice that makes it possible for God's wrath to be turned away, contingent upon man doing his bit (making the right choice, being faithful, or whatever); rather, a propitiation is a sacrifice that does turn away wrath, otherwise it is not a propitiation at all.

You are assuming that "whole world" means every single person; but, that is what you need to demonstrate, not assume.

If you look up a Greek lexicon for the word translated "world", it has several possible meanings, but "every single person in the world" is not one of them! No, "whole world", here, does not mean "every single person" (it almost never does); rather, it means Jews and Gentiles - all categories of people, without reference to how many individuals.

 

[fastfredy0]

God's wrath is turned away from all men, giving them "all" a chance at life. People still have to choose to follow God to have it applied.

But look at the scripture:

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The whole world is included.

Premise 1: God knows all things
Premise 2: Definition of chance is: "The unknown and unpredictable element in happenings that seems to have no assignable cause".
Premise 3:

God's wrath is turned away from all men, giving them "all" a chance at life.

Conclusion: Your statement (premise 3) contradicts premises 1 and/or 2 and therefore either one or both premises 1 & 2 are incorrect or you don't believe God is ALL KNOWING or you don't use the word "chance" correctly.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Premise 1: God knows all things
Premise 2: Definition of chance is: "The unknown and unpredictable element in happenings that seems to have no assignable cause".
Premise 3:

Conclusion: Your statement (premise 3) contradicts premises 1 and/or 2 and therefore either one or both premises 1 & 2 are incorrect or you don't believe God is ALL KNOWING or you don't use the word "chance" correctly.

I will use scripture to show God does not know everything regarding man's choices.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

 

[fastfredy0]

I will use scripture to show God does not know everything regarding man's choices.

WOW ... didn't think you would go there.

Your belief the God does not know all things has ominous collateral damage to the essence of God as follows:
God is NOT ALL WISE as wisdom is dependent upon knowledge
God is NOT IMMUTABLE for His knowledge changes ... this contradicts Scripture
God is NOT All POWERFUL for He lack knowledge ... this contradicts Scripture Revelation 19:6
God is NOT INFINITE for He has limitations
God is DEPENDENT upon man who is the partial source of His knowledge
God is NOT ETERNAL as His knowledge changes so does He such that He is not what He once was

Your believe also contradicts scriptures that say God is ALL KNOWING

• Job 37:16 who is perfect in knowledge
• Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit.
• Job 21:22 “Can anyone teach God knowledge, Seeing that He judges those on high?
• Psalm 147:5 Great is our [majestic and mighty] Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is inexhaustible [infinite, boundless].
• Psalm 147:5 Great is our [majestic and mighty] Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is inexhaustible [infinite, boundless].
• yahda, yahda, yahda

Re: Gen 6:5-7
I think you should study 'anthropomorphism'. Here's a good place to start: https://www.gotquestions.org/anthropomorphism.html

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

But who are Jesus's sheep?

We don't know. Nor do we need to know. God knows his sheep—"I know my sheep," and "the Lord knows those who are his"—and that is enough for us. (It is a fearful thing to be one of the goats to whom he says, "I never knew you.")

But you side-stepped the salient points of my response, namely, (a) that God has sheep, (b) that those sheep are Jews and Gentiles and are scattered throughout the whole world, (c) that Jesus laid down his life for the sheep, and (d) that some people are not his sheep. This informs a biblical and self-consistent interpretation of 1 John 2:2, that Jesus is the mercy seat for not only the Jewish sheep but also the Gentile sheep scattered throughout every nation, tribe, language and people (John 11:51-52), or "the whole world." (For those who are not his sheep, Jesus is the judgment seat.)

Obviously, those who are not his sheep are blind to the truth. But how does this blindness occur?

It occurs because they are not his sheep. Jesus said, "You do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:26). Addressing your question here more directly, Jesus also said, "Why don't you believe me? The one who belongs to God listens and responds to God's words. You don't listen and respond because you don't belong to God" (John 8:46-47). The sheep, remember, belong to God (John 10:29; cf. John 17:6).

Your thought is that God chooses to "randomly" enlighten the elect.

No, that is not my thought. That is your crude caricature of my thought. For one thing, I don't believe God does things randomly. We do. He doesn't. On my view, God accomplishes all things according to the plan and purpose of his will. For another thing, God does not enlighten the elect, he makes them willing (regenerate) and able (empower) to obey him, for we were "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:10). It is God who brings forth in you both the desire and the effort for the sake of his good pleasure (Php. 2:12-13).

Who are his sheep, really? Those who obey.

I agree. It is his sheep who obey, and only his sheep.

What about those who are not his sheep? They never obey.