My case for genuine free will

[CrowCross]

I would say Cornelius was already an adherent to the Jewish faith.

I would say Cornelius was looking for the promised messiah...he was an old testament saint.

I am not saying Cornilious "worked" his way to receiving salvation. Rather the point shows that "works" are important to God.

Works are a by-product of salvation.

10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life

I still believe 100% in faith, that:

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

But our "response" to God's word is important.

 

[KatarinaVonBora]

The following is the introduction that I have on my Website, it introduces the idea of free will in scripture. The page is a work in progress, as I have only been exposed to the concept of Reformed Theology recently, and had to put together what I believed. So here goes:

The Bible Supports Free Will​

The cross is given to all men, not just a preselected group. The following scriptures show God gives all people, those who believe, and those who don’t a chance at life. Note the wording shows that “all” truly means all, believing Jew, believing Gentile, and all unbelievers. So we see Jesus' Sacrifice was given to all people, not a select group.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Jesus did not teach predestination, but personal accountability in receiving the Holy Spirit. Note John 14 is a passage that exclusively speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit, and how it occurs. It shows that man is responsible for his salvation, God gives His light, but how we respond determines our destiny.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see the order of receiving the Holy Spirit is:

1. We receive God's words
2. We obey God's words
3. God loves the person who obeys
4. God then gives the person He loves the Holy Spirit

This shows man's actions are important in the salvation journey.

The Old Testament also teaches personal accountability and shows that it is man's, not God’s, choosing that determines his salvation:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

It is not a predetermined choice by God that determines our outcome and salvation.

The Early Church Fathers believed in Free Will not Predestination​

All the Earliest Chruch Leaders (within around 150 years of Jesus) taught that man has genuine free will, and that people were not preselected for salvation:

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...


All of the few "foreknown" references in the Bible used by Predestination in light of how the Early Church used the term can be interpreted to mean God knew in advance that people would believe in Him, and before creation having a plan for them.

From https://www.everybodymattersministry.com/christianity/about-predestination.php

This is mostly you and treating it improperly. The rest are just the opinions of others.

But you are ignoring the fact that in the case of this scripture, all is stressed to actually be everyone. How do you explain the following, which I have requoted?

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. - two groups, all and those who believe - He is the savior of both.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

- two groups - us (who believe) and the whole world - can be redeemed.

Nonsense. You are trying to force meaning into some verses where it is not instructive. I consider this to be shameful.

 

[KatarinaVonBora]

But you are ignoring the fact that in the case of this scripture, all is stressed to actually be everyone. How do you explain the following, which I have requoted?

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. - two groups, all and those who believe - He is the savior of both.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

- two groups - us (who believe) and the whole world - can be redeemed.

See what the BIBLE says:

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,


Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

 

[KatarinaVonBora]

Jesus clearly stated enlightenment or the "grant" of the Father is based upon our response to His word. Salvation is not entirely by faith, we are saved by our faith, but works should follow.

Jas 2:19-22 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Even Cornelius was selected to be the first Gentile to receive the Holy Spirit due to his good deeds.

Act 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

As James says:

Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Which fits with John 14:

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

1) God gives His word
2) If we follow it
3) God will love us
4) God will manifest Himself to us

As James says, there is an obedience component to faith. We have faith, so we obey God's words.

More nonsense and wishful thinking. I will give you some slack because it's clear that you haven't been taught about Bible hermeneutics.

Historical-grammatical method - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[KatarinaVonBora]

Jesus clearly stated enlightenment or the "grant" of the Father is based upon our response to His word. Salvation is not entirely by faith, we are saved by our faith, but works should follow.

Jas 2:19-22 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Even Cornelius was selected to be the first Gentile to receive the Holy Spirit due to his good deeds.

Act 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

As James says:

Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Which fits with John 14:

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

1) God gives His word
2) If we follow it
3) God will love us
4) God will manifest Himself to us

As James says, there is an obedience component to faith. We have faith, so we obey God's words.

More nonsense and wishful thinking. I will give you some slack because it's clear that you haven't been taught about Bible hermeneutics.

I believe Calvin is wrong the Scriptures are not stating what he says:

It is clear that those verses refer to eternal salvation.

No it's not.

 

[KatarinaVonBora]

Be open to new ideas. The previous post had the following two examples, they are scripture. But there are many more.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

We believe in the teachings of the BIBLE. We reject (I) universalism because the Bible does not teach it. Like the Catholics, you are making things up as you go.

The Bible teaches that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Manfred]

Freewill in the Bible is more than that, it is the ability to respond to God's word, the response determining our eternal destiny. As we see here:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

1) God opens a person ears so they CAN turn from iniquity
2) IF they turn they will live
3) but IF they refuse they will perish

Couple of things you have to think through.

Does God open the ears of every person to understand the gospel?

If He does, please explain why:
1. Why some choose to believe and others don't
2. Is it by the righteousness of some men that they do not suppress the truth or the lack of righteousness of others that suppresses the truth and therefore either choice is made?
3. Is the will of man sovereign over the will of God.

Could you please tell me what you think Job who you quoted above, and seem to base your theology on meant by the following which he stated later:
Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Job 42:3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Job 42:4 ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
Job 42:5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;
Job 42:6 therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

 

[Deleted member 6]

You mentioned:

2Co 4:3-4 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Yet the preceding passages state, "when one turns to the Lord", suggesting an action on our part to remove the blindness.

So, a blind man can will himself to see? No need of the Holy Spirit opening his eyes for him, he can do this all by himself? My friend, in no way does scripture teach this. The fallen man is incapable of seeing in his fallen state. That’s why we sing Amazing Grace, and the line, ”I once was blind but now I see.” Grace, and grace alone is what opens those blinded eyes.

2Co 3:15-16 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

God uses means in saving ppl, opening their eyes. It’s the word of God. When the word is proclaimed along with the Holy Spirit moving through it, He opens their blinded eyes to see, and they turn to the Lord.

As I state on my website:

I believe people are not blinded by God, but enter blindness after resiting the knowledge of God, as we see in Jesus’ words (in John 14 in the above paragraphs). Note the Church Fathers called this blinding "self-blinding", God allows/gives hardness of heart to the sinner, but those who persist in well-doing life.

Ppl are born already blinded by the fall of Adam.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End

4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.

God does allow blindness to occur, but I believe only after a man rejects the light.

Ppl reject the light because they are already blind. They don’t become blind at some point, but are blind, even at conception.

Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

What happened in the above scripture? God gave evidence to man, evidence of Him. But some chose to not glorify God, so He gave them over to a darkened heart. This backs up the idea that the darkness of the heart comes with the rejection of God’s evidence.

What you’re addressing here is God as Creator, not Saviour. God has revealed Himself to all mankind via natural revelation. But this revelation is not salvific. Ppl look at all He has created and attribute to something else.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

We believe in the teachings of the BIBLE. We reject (I) universalism because the Bible does not teach it. Like the Catholics, you are making things up as you go.

No, I am applying what I have learned, and making a doctrine based upon it. The earliest Chruch Fathers, within the first 150 years of Christ's death do not believe in Predestination, but genuine free will. They actually fought the idea of Predestination. For good reason, there is plenty of scripture that states God wants all to be given a chance of repentance.

Justin Martyr - First Apology

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

See how Justin Martyr fights the idea of Predestination saying it does not override genuine free will. Stating that Just because it has been "foretold as known beforehand" does not mean man has no free will.

The Bible teaches that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. ...

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

As I have already shown in John 14. The enlightenment or drawing of the Father occurs after we take steps toward God in obedience (after God has opened our eyes to the truth).

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

... So then it depends not on human will or exertion but on God, who has mercy. ... You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” ...

Sure God hardens some, but only after they have rejected the truth. They may complain.

Rom 1:21-22 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

But in light of the scripture's clear statement that God desires all to be given a change of life. The following:

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"

The patience, or long-suffering here, may well be talking about God putting up with people for a long time, trying to draw them. But giving them a sorry plan after their refusal.

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. ...

To me, this means nothing more than God choose us to be saved by the "method" of the cross. God, choose the way He would save man, He planned who would live, and set boundaries for them, but so that they would reach out to Him.

Act 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

In that sense I see predestination, being God's foreplanning, both of the cross and our lives. But this is not a fixed plan, but flexible within the constraints God has organized. It allows for our free will choices.

Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

... For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, ...

Again I see this as talking about the people who would respond to the gospel. That God preplanned for them to be glorified. God foreknew that certain people who accept salvation, so He predestined them to glory.

As Justin Martyr shows foreknowledge does not mean some are forced into life, and others into death.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

Justin shows the early church, saw foreknowledge not as a fixed plan, and the death of the wicked certainly not God's fault. As he says even those foreknown to be unrighteous could repent (but chose not to).

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I don't deny God has a plan for people, created before the world was birthed, He placed constraints on people, but it is not fixed. It moves according to the hearts changing of man.

Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

As I have shown previously in John 14 the appointment from God comes with the act of obedience to what God has revealed.

As for you other post disregarding the following, it is not wise to push away the word of God, for you may well be the one in error.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So, a blind man can will himself to see? No need of the Holy Spirit opening his eyes for him, he can do this all by himself? My friend, in no way does scripture teach this. The fallen man is incapable of seeing in his fallen state. That’s why we sing Amazing Grace, and the line, ”I once was blind but now I see.” Grace, and grace alone is what opens those blinded eyes.

Man does not will himself to sight God reveals His word. What man does with it determines his salvation or damnation. Man may well be blind but Christ gives light.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

2Co 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Ppl are born already blinded by the fall of Adam.

God shines His light on all men, regardless of their blinded state.

Ppl reject the light because they are already blind. They don’t become blind at some point, but are blind, even at conception.

Rubbish. All receive the light (at some point), but those desiring darkness don't come to it.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

 

[Deleted member 6]

Clemens Romanus

Predestination:

“Let us therefore consider, brethren, out of what matter we are made; who and what we were when we came into the world, as out of the grave and darkness itself; who, having made and formed us, brought us into his world having first prepared his good things for us, before we were born,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1. 88.).


“This blessedness comes upon those that are chosen of God by Jesus Christ our Lord,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1. 114).

“Therefore He (that is, God), being desirous that all his beloved ones should partake of repentance, confirmed it by his almighty will,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1. 20.).

“God hath chosen the Lord Jesus Christ, and us by him,” (Episi. ad Corinth. p. 130, 114.).

“When he wills, and as he wills, he does all things; none of those things which are decreed by him, shall pass away,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1. 64.)

 

[Deleted member 6]

Ignatius:

In predestination, “…there was such a difference between the infidels and the elect,” (Apud. ib. 50:4, c. 15, p. 134.)

 

[Deleted member 6]

Justin:

“I am able to show, that all the things appointed by Moses were types, symbols, and declarations of what should be done to Christ; and of them that were foreknown to believe in him: and likewise of those things that were to be done by Christ, ” (Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 261).


We bear, that we may not, “with our voice deny Christ, by whom we are called unto the salvation which is before prepared by our Father,” (Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 360).

“The Lord of glory, who exists for ever, would give to them all to enjoy honor and rest, with the elect,” (Epist. ad Zeuam et Sereu. p. 515.)

“God, out of all nations, took your nation to himself, a nation unprofitable, disobedient, and unfaithful; thereby pointing out, those that are chosen out of every nation to obey his will, by Christ, whom also he calls Jacob, and names Israel,” (Dialog. cum Tryph, 359, 360.).

 

[Deleted member 6]

Irenaeus:

“God predetermining all things for the perfection of man, and for the bringing about and manifestation of his dispositions, that goodness may be shown, and righteousness perfected, and the church be conformed to the image of his Son, and at length become a perfect man, and by such things be made ripe to see God, and enjoy him,” (Irenaeus adv. Haeres. 50:4, c. 72, p. 419.)

“God is not so poor and indigent as not to give to every body its own soul as its proper form. Hence, having completed the number which he before determined with himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto life, shall rise again, having their own bodies, souls, and spirits, in which they pleased God; but those who are deserving of punishment shall go into it, having also their own souls and bodies in which they departed from the grace of God,” (L. 2, c. 62, inter Fragment. Graec. ad. calcem).

“The tower of election being everywhere exalted and glorious,” (L. 4, c. 70, p. 412.

He asserts a preparation of happiness for some, and of punishment for others, upon the prescience or foreknowledge of God; his words are these, “God foreknowing all things, has prepared for both suitable habitations,” (Irenaeus adv. Haeres. 50:4, c. 76, p. 423.).

"Having cited several passages of Scripture which respect the blinding and hardening of the heart of Pharaoh, and others, such as Isaiah 6:9, 10, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Romans 1:28, 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12, which are commonly made use of in handling the doctrine of reprobation, he thus descants upon them, “If therefore now, as many as God knows, will not believe, since he foreknows all things, he hath given them up to their infidelity, and turns his face from them, leaving them in the darkness which they have chosen for themselves; is it to be wondered at, that he then gave up Pharaoh, who would never believe, with them that were with him, to their own infidelity?” (L. 4, c. 48, p. 389.)

 

[KatarinaVonBora]

No, I am applying what I have learned, and making a doctrine based upon it. The earliest Chruch Fathers, within the first 150 years of Christ's death do not believe in Predestination, but genuine free will. They actually fought the idea of Predestination. For good reason, there is plenty of scripture that states God wants all to be given a chance of repentance.

Justin Martyr - First Apology

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

See how Justin Martyr fights the idea of Predestination saying it does not override genuine free will. Stating that Just because it has been "foretold as known beforehand" does not mean man has no free will.




As I have already shown in John 14. The enlightenment or drawing of the Father occurs after we take steps toward God in obedience (after God has opened our eyes to the truth).

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.



Sure God hardens some, but only after they have rejected the truth. They may complain.

Rom 1:21-22 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

But in light of the scripture's clear statement that God desires all to be given a change of life. The following:

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"

The patience, or long-suffering here, may well be talking about God putting up with people for a long time, trying to draw them. But giving them a sorry plan after their refusal.



To me, this means nothing more than God choose us to be saved by the "method" of the cross. God, choose the way He would save man, He planned who would live, and set boundaries for them, but so that they would reach out to Him.

Act 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

In that sense I see predestination, being God's foreplanning, both of the cross and our lives. But this is not a fixed plan, but flexible within the constraints God has organized. It allows for our free will choices.



Again I see this as talking about the people who would respond to the gospel. That God preplanned for them to be glorified. God foreknew that certain people who accept salvation, so He predestined them to glory.

As Justin Martyr shows foreknowledge does not mean some are forced into life, and others into death.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

Justin shows the early church, saw foreknowledge not as a fixed plan, and the death of the wicked certainly not God's fault. As he says even those foreknown to be unrighteous could repent (but chose not to).



I don't deny God has a plan for people, created before the world was birthed, He placed constraints on people, but it is not fixed. It moves according to the hearts changing of man.

Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.



As I have shown previously in John 14 the appointment from God comes with the act of obedience to what God has revealed.

As for you other post disregarding the following, it is not wise to push away the word of God, for you may well be the one in error.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Justin Martyr is not an apostle.

YOU are speculating as the Catholic Church is so prone to doing.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Irenaeus:

“God predetermining all things for the perfection of man, and for the bringing about and manifestation of his dispositions, that goodness may be shown, and righteousness perfected, and the church be conformed to the image of his Son, and at length become a perfect man, and by such things be made ripe to see God, and enjoy him,” (Irenaeus adv. Haeres. 50:4, c. 72, p. 419.)

....

Just because words are used like "election", and "foreknowledge" does not mean people like Irenaeus believed in Predestination. Look at what he really believed here.

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Justin Martyr is not an apostle.

YOU are speculating as the Catholic Church is so prone to doing.

But they are separated by a maximum of 150 years from the apostles, and they believe in free will. Calvin who you follow, is thousands of years later, with no knowledge of the culture or meaning of scripture.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Irenaeus:

He asserts a preparation of happiness for some, and of punishment for others, upon the prescience or foreknowledge of God; his words are these, “God foreknowing all things, has prepared for both suitable habitations,” (Irenaeus adv. Haeres. 50:4, c. 76, p. 423.).

Whoever gave you that quote is bonkers. It has nothing to do with Predestination. Infact it strongly supports free will. See it in full.

3. If, however, thou wilt not believe in Him, and wilt flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in thee who didst not obey, but not in Him who called [thee]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. (Mat_22:3, etc.) The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; (Mat_3:9) but the man who does not obtain it is the cause to himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through. their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.

4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy.] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

No, I am applying what I have learned, and making a doctrine based upon it. The earliest Chruch Fathers, within the first 150 years of Christ's death do not believe in Predestination, but genuine free will. They actually fought the idea of Predestination. For good reason, there is plenty of scripture that states God wants all to be given a chance of repentance.

Justin Martyr - First Apology

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

See how Justin Martyr fights the idea of Predestination saying it does not override genuine free will. Stating that Just because it has been "foretold as known beforehand" does not mean man has no free will.




As I have already shown in John 14. The enlightenment or drawing of the Father occurs after we take steps toward God in obedience (after God has opened our eyes to the truth).

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.



Sure God hardens some, but only after they have rejected the truth. They may complain.

Rom 1:21-22 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

But in light of the scripture's clear statement that God desires all to be given a change of life. The following:

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"

The patience, or long-suffering here, may well be talking about God putting up with people for a long time, trying to draw them. But giving them a sorry plan after their refusal.



To me, this means nothing more than God choose us to be saved by the "method" of the cross. God, choose the way He would save man, He planned who would live, and set boundaries for them, but so that they would reach out to Him.

Act 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

In that sense I see predestination, being God's foreplanning, both of the cross and our lives. But this is not a fixed plan, but flexible within the constraints God has organized. It allows for our free will choices.



Again I see this as talking about the people who would respond to the gospel. That God preplanned for them to be glorified. God foreknew that certain people who accept salvation, so He predestined them to glory.

As Justin Martyr shows foreknowledge does not mean some are forced into life, and others into death.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

Justin shows the early church, saw foreknowledge not as a fixed plan, and the death of the wicked certainly not God's fault. As he says even those foreknown to be unrighteous could repent (but chose not to).



I don't deny God has a plan for people, created before the world was birthed, He placed constraints on people, but it is not fixed. It moves according to the hearts changing of man.

Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.



As I have shown previously in John 14 the appointment from God comes with the act of obedience to what God has revealed.

As for you other post disregarding the following, it is not wise to push away the word of God, for you may well be the one in error.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The church fathers, so called, did not all have the same understandings, there are many of them that taught predestination versus free will, while there were others that wrote about free will. When you say "the Church Fathers said" and go on to lump them all into the same category that favours your interpretation, that is a deceptive move, even if you did it unconsciously.

Would you be so kind as to tell us what kind of church and denomination you are part of? Thank you

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The church fathers, so called, did not all have the same understandings, there are many of them that taught predestination versus free will, while there were others that wrote about free will. When you say "the Church Fathers said" and go on to lump them all into the same category that favours your interpretation, that is a deceptive move, even if you did it unconsciously.

Would you be so kind as to tell us what kind of church and denomination you are part of? Thank you

All the church fathers that I have read believe in Freewill I have heard one of the later ones taught a kind of predestination. But could you point out which ones so I can compare their doctrines?