My case for genuine free will

[Manfred]

All the church fathers that I have read believe in Freewill I have heard one of the later ones taught a kind of predestination. But could you point out which ones so I can compare their doctrines?

Saul/Paul taught predestination, and that one is not saved by the human will or exertion.
Jesus of Nazareth taught the same as did John the Disciple.
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Believers are born again not by the will of the flesh, or the will of man, but by God.
You do NOT choose/will of man to become born again.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mat 11:26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Saul/Paul taught predestination, and that one is not saved by the human will or exertion.
Jesus of Nazareth taught the same as did John the Disciple.
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Believers are born again not by the will of the flesh, or the will of man, but by God.
You do NOT choose/will of man to become born again.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mat 11:26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

But you miss the point, who does the Father will to reveal Himself to? The obedient. The one who will follow God.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Even John 14 talks about blindness, but again who are made to see, and who are blinded?

Take a verse like the one you quoted, it does not show God forced HIs will on people. How many things could be called God's will. Many.

It is God's will than none perish.
It is God's will that we preserve.
It is God's will that we act in obedience, and love.

To say the term "God's will" means predestination is a fact it not logical. I admit there are a few scriptures that if you put them together they could point to predestination. But there are equally as many that point to free will of man, and God's desire to save as many as are willing.

It is man's will:
That he be allowed to sin

Using just some of these ideas the following could really mean anything:

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

It could well mean:

Who were born not of the fleshly line of Abraham only, nor by the will of man to excuse his sin, but of God's will, the way he does things.

Any number of other ideas could be put there.

Other ideas like foreknowledge, are given an implied meaning by predestination. We see in the early church writings that foreknowledge had a totally different meaning. That it was not controlling a person's salvation, but rather even those foreknown to be wicked could repent. Foreknowledge is partly the idea that God knew ahead of time that people would be wicked, or they would be righteous, not he made them so.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

Then you have to throw out half of the scripture, which tells us that God has given us a choice. Like:

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

 

[Manfred]

But you miss the point, who does the Father will to reveal Himself to? The obedient. The one who will follow God.

Nonsense

Those that are drawn by God WILL come.
Joh_6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
It does not say "those will follow me are chosen by God" as you whish it to say!

God does not choose people based on what THEY will
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mat 11:26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Those that are drawn by God WILL come.
Joh_6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

The order is still obedience leads to the Father's love, then the Father grants the person to Jesus.

Joh 14:21-24 A) He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. B) And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, C) and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "A) If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; B) and My Father will love him, C) and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The grant of the father comes at B), which leads to C) Jesus revealing

Joh_6:37 All that the B) Father gives me will C) come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

The scripture you quote only shows part B) and C) it does not mean there is no A).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So your doctrine states that God "purposefully" damns a portion of the world, for no other reason than because He wishes to display His wrath. Yet Jesus said:

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

He said:

a) He desired to gather the people to Himself (this is God's desire)
b) but the people were not willing

In light of this and other scriptures like:

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

How can you say God desires a portion of the world to be damned to show His wrath?

 

[Manfred]

The order is still obedience leads to the Father's love, then the Father grants the person to Jesus.

Joh 14:21-24 A) He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. B) And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, C) and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "A) If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; B) and My Father will love him, C) and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The grant of the father comes at B), which leads to C) Jesus revealing

Joh_6:37 All that the B) Father gives me will C) come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

The scripture you quote only shows part B) and C) it does not mean there is no A).

You have not considered that the above is NOT written to unbelievers but believers.

Your obedience is not the cause of God's Love! God's love caused me to be obedient to Him.

You think way to much of self and your own sovereignty!

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You have not considered that the above is NOT written to unbelievers but believers.

Your obedience is not the cause of God's Love! God's love caused me to be obedient to Him.

You think way to much of self and your own sovereignty!

What makes you think the method changes? Two groups are mentioned, the saved, and the unsaved. It is a passage speaking of "who" will receive the Holy Spirit. The obedient receive it, the disobedient do not. This also continues after one is saved, we must be obedient to inherit the blessing.

Hebrews 6 specifically singles out Holy Spirit believers, stating they "can" be lost. For what reason:

Heb 6:7-8 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

God sends the good rain of His word and the Spirit upon us, but if we continually bear weeds our end is to be burned.

There is plenty of scripture that supports that idea, but your doctrine makes you blind to it.

 

[Manfred]

What makes you think the method changes? T

Spiritual death and the NEED to be born again which is initiated by God and not man.
No one understands, no one seeks...

You want to give carnal man that power. It is a desperate need within you to glorify man for earning their salvation through obedience.
You desperately want something to boast about.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Spiritual death and the NEED to be born again which is initiated by God and not man.
No one understands, no one seeks...

You want to give carnal man that power. It is a desperate need within you to glorify man for earning their salvation through obedience.
You desperately want something to boast about.

Sure no one starts out seeking God, but when given the word, and God's nudge, they can make a choice. That is why the following from Job is so enlightening:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

They start out in sin. "No one understands, no one seeks..."

God does what? Opens their ears, and what they are OSAO, sorry.

No they, the man have the choice.

They still have nothing to boast about, they were in sin, but God in his mercy gives them a chance at life.

Note they can both live or die after "enlightenment/instruction".

 

[Manfred]

Sure no one starts out seeking God, but when given the word, and God's nudge, they can make a choice.

You mean God nudges in the hope of getting a response.
You are great for having responded positively to the nudging of God!
Well done, you have something to boast in, unlike those atheists who chose not to respond positively to God's nudging or the Mormon who mis-understood the nudging of God and chose differently to you!

Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Joh 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
Joh 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”
Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
Joh 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

Why do you not believe the above scripture?
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

The above does not reflect a God nudging all people and waiting for some to respond!

 

[His clay]

This is factually false. Salvation depends on faith in Christ and billions are not dead who never heard of Christ. This assume you mean "everyone without exception" when you use the term "all men".



That would be WORKS SALVATION which contradicts scripture. Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 3:28, many others


If that's your definition that I am good with it. Those that hear God's salvific word all respond and they all respond negatively unless God regenerates them first.

Free Will is denied specifically in John 1:12-13.

I also see the works salvation in the words you are critiquing.

 

[Red Baker]

FutureAndAHope~​

The Bible Supports Free Will​

Wishful thinking on your part. The scriptures clearly teach against the power of free will of the sinner having the ability to choose with true wisdom and understanding spiritual truths~Impossible! Romans 9:6~"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" This scripture is speaking of salvation from sin and condemnation, not service, as some labor in vain to teach in order to escape the truths of Romans nine. We can consider this in depth if need to do so.

The cross is given to all men, not just a preselected group. The following scriptures show God gives all people, those who believe, and those who don’t a chance at life. Note the wording shows that “all” truly means all, believing Jew, believing Gentile, and all unbelievers. So we see Jesus' Sacrifice was given to all people, not a select group.

You have invented phrases not used in the scriptures~"The cross is given to all"....and then you make a vain attempt to use scriptures to prove your point.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Context is king in coming to a true understanding of what any scripture is saying to us.

1st Timothy 4:4-7~"For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. Put the brethren in remembrance of what? That every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving! God put every creature here for our means of surviving~the only requirement is to receive such things with thanksgiving knowing who provided these things for us to eat and to be nourished for growth, health, and good condition, or physical fitness. As believer's. who trust in the Living God knowing the is the Saviour of all men, as far as providing for their necessities of life, food, water, etc. This is true specially of believer!

Scriptures are not hard to understand if we stay with the context under consideration~folks who end up in error stray from the context and latch on the sound bites to support their error. Leaving the context is a hallmark of error every time.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John was a minister to the circumcision~

Galatians 2:9~"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."

Being such and writing unto them he is telling the circumcision that God not only is the propitiation for their sins, but also for the whole world, meaning the heathren. Understanding other scriptures we understand that this does not mean ALL without exception but all without distinction. Jews and Gentiles, yet among each, God is calling out his elect from among each of them.
Acts 15:14~"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name." Enough on this point, even though so much more could be written.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see the order of receiving the Holy Spirit is:

1. We receive God's words
2. We obey God's words
3. God loves the person who obeys
4. God then gives the person He loves the Holy Spirit

This shows man's actions are important in the salvation journey

You are blinded and confused, which is the results of having a false gospel, another gospel. God's love is not predicated on my love for him~that's so far from the truth.

Romans 8:5-8~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

A sinner's heart must be changed, before he could possibly love God and walk after the Spirit. All natural men are at enmity against God, that's worse than just being an enemy, which is bad enough, but all sinners are at war against God, truth, righteousness etc., etc. We only love God because he FIRST loved us while we were yet without strength, or the ability to love him.

Romans 5:8-10~But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

So many scriptures could be given, but enough for now.

Sir, your gospel falls under the curse of God, not my curse, but, God's curse per Galatians one. This should concern you.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Wishful thinking on your part. The scriptures clearly teach against the power of free will of the sinner having the ability to choose with true wisdom and understanding spiritual truths~Impossible! Romans 9:6~"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" This scripture is speaking of salvation from sin and condemnation, not service, as some labor in vain to teach in order to escape the truths of Romans nine. We can consider this in depth if need to do so.

You have invented phrases not used in the scriptures~"The cross is given to all"....and then you make a vain attempt to use scriptures to prove your point.

Context is king in coming to a true understanding of what any scripture is saying to us.

1st Timothy 4:4-7~"For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. Put the brethren in remembrance of what? That every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving! God put every creature here for our means of surviving~the only requirement is to receive such things with thanksgiving knowing who provided these things for us to eat and to be nourished for growth, health, and good condition, or physical fitness. As believer's. who trust in the Living God knowing the is the Saviour of all men, as far as providing for their necessities of life, food, water, etc. This is true specially of believer!

Scriptures are not hard to understand if we stay with the context under consideration~folks who end up in error stray from the context and latch on the sound bites to support their error. Leaving the context is a hallmark of error every time.


John was a minister to the circumcision~

Galatians 2:9~"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."

Being such and writing unto them he is telling the circumcision that God not only is the propitiation for their sins, but also for the whole world, meaning the heathren. Understanding other scriptures we understand that this does not mean ALL without exception but all without distinction. Jews and Gentiles, yet among each, God is calling out his elect from among each of them.
Acts 15:14~"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name." Enough on this point, even though so much more could be written.

It is really clear what these scriptures say:

Bible is clear God gave Himself as a ransom for all men.

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

The above verse shows us that a) God’s desire is to save as many as receive Him, note b) He gave himself as a ransom for all. This shows that the “all men” being talked about is a reference to their salvation. Not some general form of “other salvation”.

The following scriptures show us that “all men” includes both “saved” and unsaved, and for “us” and the “whole world”.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

As for your argument that 1 Timothy 4 is talking about food, it is only a part of the passage. The passage starts with:

1Ti 4:1-2 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

It is actually talking about people departing from the faith and giving in to lies. Not eating certain foods was only one of the things mentioned as a lie.

You are blinded and confused, which is the results of having a false gospel, another gospel. God's love is not predicated on my love for him~that's so far from the truth.

Romans 8:5-8~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

A sinner's heart must be changed, before he could possibly love God and walk after the Spirit. All natural men are at enmity against God, that's worse than just being an enemy, which is bad enough, but all sinners are at war against God, truth, righteousness etc., etc. We only love God because he FIRST loved us while we were yet without strength, or the ability to love him.

Romans 5:8-10~But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

So many scriptures could be given, but enough for now.

Sir, your gospel falls under the curse of God, not my curse, but, God's curse per Galatians one. This should concern you.

No, you confuse what I mean. The salvation journey that I ascribe to is:

a) We start out with no knowledge of God
b) God reveals to us His love for us, and His desire for us to turn from iniquity (He first loved us)
c) Our response to God's love and Word to us determines if we will be saved.
d) If we respond to God, He responds to us with returned love and salvation.

You have misunderstood the meaning of John 14 to be:

a) We perform good deeds to please God
b) God loves us for our good deed
c) then we are saved

I have added to the scripture below so you can see my meaning.

John 14:21-24 [We were without hope (Eph 2:12), Yet God so loved the world that He sent Jesus (John 3:16), to bring us that hope, He loved us before we made any attempt to love Him, He gave us the command to believe in Him (Joh 6:29), and commands that we turn from iniquity (Job 36:10). In responding to these commands we are considered righteous. It is true ] He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

But look closely at the above scripture, it has a distinct order, obedience comes before enlightenment, not after. This shows us there is a step "we" take to come to God after God has revealed what grace is.

 

[Red Baker]

It is really clear what these scriptures say:

Sir, scriptures are only clear to him that understandeth. Proverbs 8:9.~They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. To those few that the scriptures overall are plain, they prove it by reading them distinctly and then laboring to give to them their proper sense, which you have failed to do so.

Quoting scriptures and using only sound bites truly prove nothing. All it does is to add to the already confusing mess found in most churches in the twenty-first century. Any person can collect scriptures with seemly proof to support their doctrine, yet when tested by the scriptures by a wise interpreter who has some knowledge, they are found wanting, without any substance to its teachings. That's all you have done above.

Bible is clear God gave Himself as a ransom for all men.

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Who will have all men to be saved~Context drives our understanding~yes, context is king!

1st Timothy 2:1,2~"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty."

Believers are commanded to pray kings and those in authority, that they would faithfully do their services for which they were ordained to do, so that those under them could live a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness. God's love was no longer confide to the natural seed of Abraham overall, as it was in the OT~ but after the death of Christ his love now is unto the whole world, that is: Jews and Gentiles, yet among them he has an elect people.

So, who would have ALL MEN to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth~ is all without distinction, not all without exception, for God clearly makes exceptions, just as he did in the OT with Israel! I could heap hundreds of scripture for your consideration, if needed to prove what I'm saying.

The above verse shows us that a) God’s desire is to save as many as receive Him, note b) He gave himself as a ransom for all. This shows that the “all men” being talked about is a reference to their salvation. Not some general form of “other salvation”.

Sir, "God desires to save as many as receive him? The scriptures' testimony is this: the power to receive Christ is GIVEN by the power of God.

John 1:10-13~"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Jesus came unto his own, yet they did not receive him~yet some did, what made the difference? Verse 12 tell us clearly. "But as many as received him, TO THEM gave he POWER to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. The right to become God's sons is a give freely given, according to this verse that so many do not understand. Verse 13 is a commentary on verse 12. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The new birth is a birth by the will, power and grace of Almighty God. The will of flesh (some person bringing the gospel, or even desiring one to be saved is NOT the means of the new birth).... the will of man is not the means of the new birth, because every man's will is in bondgae to sin and Satan! The new birth is ALL OF GOD, apart from man in any way you may come up with.

I'll come back, I want to finish.

 

[brightfame52]

futureandhope

It is really clear what these scriptures say:

Bible is clear God gave Himself as a ransom for all men.

Sure, that simply means all of the many Jesus referred to here Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
In other words, the all in 1 Tim 2:6 are the Many in Matt 20:28
Furhtermore the ransomed are saved, thats what the ransom paid effected, their salvation, their liberty and release. Its the greek word ἀντίλυτρον:

1. what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom
2. e price for redeeming, ransom
   1. paid for slaves, captives
   2. for the ransom of life
3. to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sins

The penalty of their sins is gone and the death they deserved is gone, they are saved from the penalty and guilt of their sins, redeemed from the curse of the law

And all that be so ransomed, it will be applied to them and announced to them in time 1 Tim 2:6

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Isa 35:10
And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away

Jer 31:11

For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

I dont think you truly understand what ransomed means friend if you believe the Lord ransomed all without exception and knowing many many will end up in hell with the devil and his angels.