My case for genuine free will

[Deleted member 6]

The scripture is not saying God "will" save all men, but rather He desires all to be saved. This salvation is extended to all.

Again, it says He IS the savior of ALL of all men, not He DESIRES to be the saviour of ALL men, now does it? You are changing words here. Again, How can He be savior of ALL men if ALL men are not saved?

 

[Deleted member 6]

The scripture is not saying God "will" save all men, but rather He desires all to be saved. This salvation is extended to all.

I do appreciate your civility towards me and other members on here, FYI.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Will you now argue salvation is works based? It sure sounds like you're heading in that direction.

Jesus clearly stated enlightenment or the "grant" of the Father is based upon our response to His word. Salvation is not entirely by faith, we are saved by our faith, but works should follow.

Jas 2:19-22 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Even Cornelius was selected to be the first Gentile to receive the Holy Spirit due to his good deeds.

Act 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

As James says:

Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Which fits with John 14:

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

1) God gives His word
2) If we follow it
3) God will love us
4) God will manifest Himself to us

As James says, there is an obedience component to faith. We have faith, so we obey God's words.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Again, it says He IS the savior of ALL of all men, not He DESIRES to be the saviour of ALL men, now does it? You are changing words here. Again, How can He be savior of ALL men if ALL men are not saved?

But we never should read scripture in isolation. Taken together:

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

All are referring to God's desire for all men to be saved. Not that all men will be saved.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus clearly stated enlightenment or the "grant" of the Father is based upon our response to His word. Salvation is not entirely by faith, we are saved by our faith, but works should follow.

Jas 2:19-22 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Even Cornelius was selected to be the first Gentile to receive the Holy Spirit due to his good deeds.

Act 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

As James says:

Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Which fits with John 14:

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

1) God gives His word
2) If we follow it
3) God will love us
4) God will manifest Himself to us

As James says, there is an obedience component to faith. We have faith, so we obey God's words.

The question I have, was Cornelius already saved?

Just for the record I thought the post ws well thought out and presented.

I like what Gills said here in his commentary.

 

[brightfame52]

futureandahop

All are referring to God's desire for all men to be saved. Not that all men will be saved.

Then you are advocating Gods will/purpose is disappointed, thats not good witnessing of the Gospel. The word will is the greek word 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Its the word thelō:
to will, have in mind, intend

1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
2. to desire, to wish

Its the same word James uses here James 4:15
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
And Paul used it again here Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
And then Jobs testimony about what God desires Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
So you are advocating failure to the purpose and will, desire of God if all whom He wills to be saved aren't saved,
And you are advocating failure on Christs Mission, because its His responsibility to save who God wants saved.

Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[Deleted member 6]

But we never should read scripture in isolation. Taken together:

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

All are referring to God's desire for all men to be saved. Not that all men will be saved.

Again, my friend, it say He IS the savior of ALL men, does it not? You will not address this verse but go other places to try and prove this.

 

[Deleted member 6]

But we never should read scripture in isolation. Taken together:

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

All are referring to God's desire for all men to be saved. Not that all men will be saved.

From John Calvin…

“The word Savior is not here taken in what we call its proper and strict meaning, in regard to the eternal salvation which God promises to his elect, but it is taken for one who delivers and protects. Thus we see that even unbelievers are protected by God, as it is said (Matthew 5:46) that "he maketh his sun to shine on the good and the bad;" and we see that all are fed by his goodness, that all are delivered from many dangers. In this sense he is called "the Savior of all men," not in regard to the spiritual salvation of their souls, but because he supports all his creatures. In this way, therefore, our Lord is the Savior of all men, that is, his goodness extends to the most wicked, who are estranged from him, and who do not deserve to have any intercourse with him, who ought to have been struck off from the number of the creatures of God and destroyed; and yet we see how God hitherto extends his grace to them; for the life which he gives to them is a testimony of his goodness. Since, therefore God shows such favor towards those who are strangers to him, how shall it be with us who are members of his household? Not that we are better or more excellent than those whom we see to be cast off by him, but the whole proceeds from his mercy and free grace, that he is reconciled to us through our Lord Jesus Christ, since he hath called us to the knowledge of the gospel, and then confirms us, and seals his bounty toward us, so that we ought to be convinced that he reckons us to be his children. Since, therefore, we see that he nourishes those who are estranged from him, let us go and hide ourselves under his wings; for, having taken us under his protection, he has declared that he will show himself to be a Father toward us." -- Fr. Ser.

 

[Deleted member 6]

But we never should read scripture in isolation. Taken together:

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

All are referring to God's desire for all men to be saved. Not that all men will be saved.

Matthew Poole…

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
If we did not believe this as a faithful saying, that godliness is profitable for all things, and trust in God, who liveth for ever, to see to the fulfilling of it, to what purpose should

we labour and suffer reproach as we do; labouring in the work of God, suffering reproach in the cause of God, and for living godly lives, worshipping God according to his will, and denying ourselves in sensual satisfactions and sensible enjoyments, that we might fulfil the law of Christ?

Objection. But, will some say: how then is godliness profitable for all things, how doth the faithfulness of the promises for this life annexed to godliness appear, if those that profess it must labour and suffer reproach?

Solution. Labour for God is a reward to itself, our honour, not our burden, his service is perfect freedom: the promises of this life, annexed to godliness, are not promises of sensual rest and ease, but of inward peace, satisfaction, and support of other things, only with a reserve to the Divine wisdom and judgment, so far forth as our heavenly Father shall see it fit for his glory and our good; yet they are not vain, for God,

who is the Saviour, that is, the Preserver,

of all men, the Preserver of man and beast, as the psalmist speaketh, is in a more especial manner the Saviour

of those that believe, Psalm 33:18,19. This seemeth rather to be the sense of the text, than to understand it of eternal salvation, for so God is not the actual Saviour of all; besides that the text seemeth to speak of a work proper to the Father, rather than to the Son.

 

[Deleted member 6]

What About 1 Timothy 4:10?
BY JOHN SAMSON

This is a verse which is often raised as an objection to God’s Sovereignty in election.

“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.”[1 Timothy 4:10]

It has had many interpretations. Here are a few of them:

(1) UNIVERSALISM – Universalists interpret the phrase that God is “the Savior of all people” to mean that all will be saved. This is contrary to all sound doctrine and, in fact, has always been viewed as heresy by the Church. The proponents of this idea emphasize the love of God as God’s chief and most important attribute, to the exclusion of all others, such as His holiness and His justice. This heresy is very easily refuted because the Bible makes it very clear that some people will end up in hell, forever. (Rev 14: 9-11; 20:15; Matt 5: 21-22, 27-30; 23: 15, 33; 25: 41, 46)

If the phrase “the Savior of all people” was seeking to teach universalism, the rest of the verse would have no meaning when it says “especially of those who believe.”

(2) ARMINIANISM – Arminians would normally interpret the verse to say that God wants to save everyone but His desire is many times thwarted by the obstinate free will of man. Note though that the passage does not say He wants to save, but that He actually saves: He is actually the Savior (in some sense at least) of all people, not merely a potential Savior.

Also, according to Isaiah 46:10, God’s will is never frustrated. He accomplishes all He sets out to do.

(3) A VARIATION OF ARMINIANISM - God is able to save all people, but though all can be saved, only believers actually are. Again, this is not what the text says.

(4) THE REFORMED VIEW – God is the Savior of all people (in one sense) and especially of those who believe (in another sense). Why would this be considered the correct interpretation?

Well, as we study the terms “salvation” and “Savior” in the Bible we find many nuances – many different ways God saves. The most important aspect of salvation is to be “saved” from the wrath of God (Romans 5:6-9), but salvation also includes the idea of rescue from enemy attack (Psalm 18:3); preservation (Matt 8:25); physical healing (Matt 9:22; James 5:15) etc. God “saved” not only Paul but everyone else on board ship with him in Acts 27:22, 31, 44. There are numerous ways that “salvation” takes place, but that’s a complete Bible study all in itself.

When we study the word Savior (Greek: soter) in the LXX version (Greek translation of the Old Testament) we see the word used in a way that is far less grandiose than that which we generally think of the word. One example is Judge Othniel is called a Soter (Savior) or deliverer because he delivered the children of Israel from the hands of the king of Mesopotamia (Jud 3:9). 2 Kings 13:5 talks of God giving Israel a “Savior” so that they were delivered from the hands of the Syrians. The judges of Israel were “saviors” as Nehemiah 9:27 states, “… in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hand of their enemies.” (see also Psalm 36:6)

A great deal more could be said to substantiate this idea of a savior, but I think the above makes the point. God provides food (Psalm 104:27, 28) sunlight and rainfall (Matt. 5:45), as well as life and breath and all things (Acts 17:25), for “In him we live and move and have our being.” (Acts 17:28)

God preserves, delivers and supplies the needs of all who live in this world, and it is in this sense that He extends grace to them, saving them from destruction every day they live. God is also gracious in allowing many to hear the proclamation of the Gospel.

All of these mercies are referred to as “common grace.” As I pointed out in the chapter “The Place to Start: Amazed by Common Grace” it is common only in the sense that every living person gets it. This grace should actually shock and amaze us because God is under no obligation whatsoever to give it to anyone. God sustains the lives of His sworn enemies, often for many decades! However, as wonderful as it is, it is only a temporal grace because all unregenerate people eventually die and will face the judgment. (Heb 9:27)

I believe then that 1 Timothy 4:10 teaches that God is the Savior (soter – preserver, sustainer and deliverer) of all people (showing mercy to all, each and every day they live), especially of those who believe (who receive full salvation from His wrath and everlasting life).

What About 1 Timothy 4:10? | Monergism

by John SamsonThis is a verse which is often raised as an objection to God’s Sovereignty in election.“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our

www.monergism.com

 

[Deleted member 6]

Albert Barnes…


For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach - In making this truth known, that all might be saved, or that salvation was offered to all. The “labor” was chiefly experienced in carrying this intelligence abroad among the Gentiles; the “reproach” arose chiefly from the Jews for doing it.

Because we trust in the living God - This does not mean, as our translation would seem to imply, that he labored and suffered “because” he confided in God, or that this was the “reason” of his sufferings, but rather that this trust in the living God was his “support” in these labors and trials. “We labor and suffer reproach, for we have hope in God. Through him we look for salvation. We believe that he has made this known to people, and believing this, we labor earnestly to make it known, even though it be attended with reproaches.” The sentiment is, that the belief that God has revealed a plan of salvation for all people, and invites all people to be saved, will make his friends willing to “labor” to make this known, though it be attended with reproaches.

Who is the Saviour of all men - This must be understood as denoting that he is the Saviour of all people in some sense which differs from what is immediately affirmed - “especially of those that believe.” There is something pertaining to “them” in regard to salvation which does not pertain to “all men.” It cannot mean that he brings all people to heaven, “especially” those who believe - for this would be nonsense. And if he brings all people actually to heaven, how can it be “especially” true that he does this in regard to those who believe? Does it mean that he saves others “without” believing? But this would be contrary to the uniform doctrine of the Scriptures; see Mark 16:16. When, therefore, it is said that he “is the Saviour of ‘all’ people, ‘especially’ of those who believe,” it must mean that there is a sense in which it is true that he may be called the Saviour of all people, while, at the same time, it is “actually” true that those only are saved who believe. This may be true in two respects:

As he is the “Preserver” of people Job 7:20, for in this sense he may be said to “save” them from famine, and war, and peril - keeping them from day to day; compare Psalms 107:28;
(2)As he has “provided” salvation for all people. He is thus their Saviour - and may be called the common Saviour of all; that is, he has confined the offer of salvation to no one class of people; he has not limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him.

(See supplementary note on 2 Corinthians 5:21. This passage however is not regarded a proof text now on the extent of the atonement, as the fair rendering of σωτήρ sōtēr is “Preserver.” Dr. Wardlaw has accordingly excluded it in his recent work.)

Specially of those that believe - This is evidently designed to limit the previous remark. If it had been left there, it might have been inferred that he would “actually save” all people. But the apostle held no such doctrine, and he here teaches that salvation is “actually” limited to those who believe. This is the speciality or the uniqueness in the salvation of those who actually reach heaven, that they are “believers;” see the notes on Mark 16:16. All people, therefore, do not enter heaven, unless all people have faith. But is this so? What evidence is there that the great mass of mankind die believing on the Son of God?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The question I have, was Cornelius already saved?

Just for the record I thought the post ws well thought out and presented.

I like what Gills said here in his commentary.

I would say Cornelius was already an adherent to the Jewish faith. I am not saying Cornilious "worked" his way to receiving salvation. Rather the point shows that "works" are important to God.

I still believe 100% in faith, that:

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

But our "response" to God's word is important.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

From John Calvin…

“The word Savior is not here taken in what we call its proper and strict meaning, in regard to the eternal salvation which God promises to his elect, but it is taken for one who delivers and protects. Thus we see that even unbelievers are protected by God, as it is said (Matthew 5:46) that "he maketh his sun to shine on the good and the bad;" and we see that all are fed by his goodness, that all are delivered from many dangers. In this sense he is called "the Savior of all men," not in regard to the spiritual salvation of their souls, but because he supports all his creatures. In this way, therefore, our Lord is the Savior of all men, that is, his goodness extends to the most wicked, who are estranged from him, and who do not deserve to have any intercourse with him, who ought to have been struck off from the number of the creatures of God and destroyed; and yet we see how God hitherto extends his grace to them; for the life which he gives to them is a testimony of his goodness. Since, therefore God shows such favor towards those who are strangers to him, how shall it be with us who are members of his household? Not that we are better or more excellent than those whom we see to be cast off by him, but the whole proceeds from his mercy and free grace, that he is reconciled to us through our Lord Jesus Christ, since he hath called us to the knowledge of the gospel, and then confirms us, and seals his bounty toward us, so that we ought to be convinced that he reckons us to be his children. Since, therefore, we see that he nourishes those who are estranged from him, let us go and hide ourselves under his wings; for, having taken us under his protection, he has declared that he will show himself to be a Father toward us." -- Fr. Ser.

I believe Calvin is wrong the Scriptures are not stating what he says:

that all are delivered from many dangers. In this sense he is called "the Savior of all men," not in regard to the spiritual salvation of their souls

It is clear that those verses refer to eternal salvation.

 

[Deleted member 6]

I believe Calvin is wrong the Scriptures are not stating what he says:

It is clear that those verses refer to eternal salvation.

So He is the savior (eternal salvation) or all men, but especially of them that believe (eternal salvation). My friend, that verse in no way, shape, form, or fashion, advocates this.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So He is the savior (eternal salvation) or all men, but especially of them that believe (eternal salvation). My friend, that verse in no way, shape, form, or fashion, advocates this.

What does Jesus "save" people from?

My view of the cross is as follows:

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

Each and every man is appointed to die "once", so Christ was offered for each and every man "once".

But salvation is not fixed, it contains an "IF"

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

The same person is given two pathways, it is a choice.

God's will involves giving people a choice. Hence the tree in the Garden of Eden. A choice to obey, or disobey. God's will is not linear, it involves people's choices.

 

[Deleted member 6]

What does Jesus "save" people from?

Sin and His wrath.

My view of the cross is as follows:

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

Correct, many, not all.

Each and every man is appointed to die "once", so Christ was offered for each and every man "once".

Yet He said He gave His life for the sheep, per John 10:11,15. He also gave His life for the church per Ephesians 5:25, which is comprised of believing Jewish and Gentile sheep.

But salvation is not fixed, it contains an "IF"

Not so my friend.

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.[John 17:1-5]

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me. just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”[John 10:11-18]

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

This was given to the covenant community of God, not all men indiscriminately.

God's will involves giving people a choice. Hence the tree in the Garden of Eden. A choice to obey, or disobey. God's will is not linear, it involves people's choices.

Ppl make choices everyday. But no one will choose that which is contrary in regards to his will. Men in the flesh have set their desires upon the things of the flesh, per Romans 8:5-9. Only those born again, born of God, will choose to obey and serve Him.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Sin and His wrath.



Correct, many, not all.



Yet He said He gave His life for the sheep, per John 10:11,15. He also gave His life for the church per Ephesians 5:25, which is comprised of believing Jewish and Gentile sheep.



Not so my friend.

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.[John 17:1-5]

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me. just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”[John 10:11-18]

It is true that the Father only "selects" a specific group of people. So in one sense, he is only their savior. But the bride of Christ is not just a random selection of sinners. It is those who follow after the ways of God. God reveals His will, if we follow it we receive God's love as Jesus said:

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

In the preceding verse ask yourself who "are given to Jesus", to whom does God bring "enlightenment"? Is it not those who follow after God's ways.

This was given to the covenant community of God, not all men indiscriminately.

It has always been the way salvation was given, so it applies to all people.

Ppl make choices everyday. But no one will choose that which is contrary in regards to his will. Men in the flesh have set their desires upon the things of the flesh, per Romans 8:5-9. Only those born again, born of God, will choose to obey and serve Him.

Again if you look at the order of enlightenment in John 14, obedience leads to God's love, and consequently enlightenment. Ask yourself in that scripture "who" does God love? Who are His sheep?

 

[brightfame52]

crowcross

The question I have, was Cornelius already saved?

Regenerated Yes and Justified before God yes. The scripture said he was a Just man [justified] and feared God [regenerated] and worked righteousness/accepted of God Acts 10:22,35

And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

 

[Deleted member 6]

It is true that the Father only "selects" a specific group of people. So in one sense, he is only their savior. But the bride of Christ is not just a random selection of sinners. It is those who follow after the ways of God. God reveals His will, if we follow it we receive God's love as Jesus said:

I find it odd you putting “” around the word selects. The point is this, those who follow His ways are those who have been born again by the Holy Spirit. Look at Romans 8:5-9 for instance…

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Notice the characteristics of those in the flesh:

-Have their minds set on the the things of the flesh
-Is hostile towards God [at enmity with Him]
-They cannot please God

In this fallen in Adam state, they cannot and will not seek Him. Their fallen nature precludes them from doing this. That’s why the new birth precedes them doing this, as they are incapable of doing so.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Again, fallen man is incapable of doing any of this. Their fallen nature precludes them from doing so. Not one lost person can keep His commandments, as the lost have automatically transgressed the very first commandment.

In the preceding verse ask yourself who "are given to Jesus", to whom does God bring "enlightenment"? Is it not those who follow after God's ways.

And yet the point remains, not one fallen in Adam person can follow after His ways. They are blinded to this per 2 Cor. 4:4.

It has always been the way salvation was given, so it applies to all people.



Again if you look at the order of enlightenment in John 14, obedience leads to God's love, and consequently enlightenment. Ask yourself in that scripture "who" does God love? Who are His sheep?

And yet ppl in the flesh cannot please Him. Why do I say this? Per Hebrews 11:6, faith can please Him, and the lost are devoid of it.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You mentioned:

2Co 4:3-4 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Yet the preceding passages state, "when one turns to the Lord", suggesting an action on our part to remove the blindness.

2Co 3:15-16 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

As I state on my website:

I believe people are not blinded by God, but enter blindness after resiting the knowledge of God, as we see in Jesus’ words (in John 14 in the above paragraphs). Note the Church Fathers called this blinding "self-blinding", God allows/gives hardness of heart to the sinner, but those who persist in well-doing life.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End

4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.

God does allow blindness to occur, but I believe only after a man rejects the light.

Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

What happened in the above scripture? God gave evidence to man, evidence of Him. But some chose to not glorify God, so He gave them over to a darkened heart. This backs up the idea that the darkness of the heart comes with the rejection of God’s evidence.