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My case for genuine free will

FutureAndAHope

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The following is the introduction that I have on my Website, it introduces the idea of free will in scripture. The page is a work in progress, as I have only been exposed to the concept of Reformed Theology recently, and had to put together what I believed. So here goes:

The Bible Supports Free Will​

The cross is given to all men, not just a preselected group. The following scriptures show God gives all people, those who believe, and those who don’t a chance at life. Note the wording shows that “all” truly means all, believing Jew, believing Gentile, and all unbelievers. So we see Jesus' Sacrifice was given to all people, not a select group.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Jesus did not teach predestination, but personal accountability in receiving the Holy Spirit. Note John 14 is a passage that exclusively speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit, and how it occurs. It shows that man is responsible for his salvation, God gives His light, but how we respond determines our destiny.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see the order of receiving the Holy Spirit is:

  1. We receive God's words
  2. We obey God's words
  3. God loves the person who obeys
  4. God then gives the person He loves the Holy Spirit
This shows man's actions are important in the salvation journey.

The Old Testament also teaches personal accountability and shows that it is man's, not God’s, choosing that determines his salvation:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

It is not a predetermined choice by God that determines our outcome and salvation.

The Early Church Fathers believed in Free Will not Predestination​

All the Earliest Chruch Leaders (within around 150 years of Jesus) taught that man has genuine free will, and that people were not preselected for salvation:

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...


All of the few "foreknown" references in the Bible used by Predestination in light of how the Early Church used the term can be interpreted to mean God knew in advance that people would believe in Him, and before creation having a plan for them.

From https://www.everybodymattersministry.com/christianity/about-predestination.php
 
Free will, as presented in the Bible, is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

Man does indeed have that power.
 
Free will, as presented in the Bible, is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

Man does indeed have that power.
Freewill in the Bible is more than that, it is the ability to respond to God's word, the response determining our eternal destiny. As we see here:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

1) God opens a person ears so they CAN turn from iniquity
2) IF they turn they will live
3) but IF they refuse they will perish

The same person has two potential pathways. As we see in all Old Testament scripture.

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

As Irenaeus states:

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God.

Irenaeus says MAN is a free agent, possessing his own power, but more importantly, that freedom is applied to his own soul, and again

And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God... God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

Both the wicked and the righteous have power over the will, a power that determines their eternity.
 
Freewill in the Bible is more than that, it is the ability to respond to God's word, the response determining our eternal destiny.
If I prefer to, I will do so.

If I do not prefer to, I will not do so.
 
futureandahop



False, never stated in scripture.
Be open to new ideas. The previous post had the following two examples, they are scripture. But there are many more.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
 
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If I prefer to, I will do so.

If I do not prefer to, I will not do so.
Why are you so sure that there are two preferences in man? The Bible is quite clear that:

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

God puts the whole world, everyone, all, in the category of those who can believe in Jesus.
 
Why are you so sure that there are two preferences in man? The Bible is quite clear that:

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

God puts the whole world, everyone, all, in the category of those who can believe in Jesus.
Have you not experienced that some do not prefer and do not do God's will, and others do prefer and do God's will?
 
The cross is given to all men
This is factually false. Salvation depends on faith in Christ and billions are not dead who never heard of Christ. This assume you mean "everyone without exception" when you use the term "all men".


  1. We receive God's words
  2. We obey God's words
  3. God loves the person who obeys
  4. God then gives the person He loves the Holy Spirit
That would be WORKS SALVATION which contradicts scripture. Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 3:28, many others

Freewill in the Bible is more than that, it is the ability to respond to God's word, the response determining our eternal destiny.
If that's your definition that I am good with it. Those that hear God's salvific word all respond and they all respond negatively unless God regenerates them first.

Free Will is denied specifically in John 1:12-13.
 
1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
All - used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing
The meaning of the words “all” and “every” and “everyone” has been distorted by many to make verses fit the doctrine they prescribe. As these words can refer to ambiguous groupings, it is best to ascertain the specific meaning from scripture that is explicit rather than implicit.
Example... Jill says, "All motorcycles have two wheels. " Greg responds, "That's ridiculous. A single motorcycle has two wheels. And there are of 200,000,000 motorcycles in the world. Therefore, all motorcycles would have over 400,000,000 wheels. Thus the word ALL is ambiguous and often construed by one's bias.


Your bias is showing. I can do a similar thing with the word WORLD; it's ambiguous and bias takes advantage of it.
 
This is factually false. Salvation depends on faith in Christ and billions are not dead who never heard of Christ. This assume you mean "everyone without exception" when you use the term "all men".

You only assume God has left them without a witness. But man has the conscience and:

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,



That would be WORKS SALVATION which contradicts scripture. Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 3:28, many others

It is Jesus that made those comments, not me. But His command to us includes the command of faith. The command to have faith in Jesus is still a command. The scripture plainly shows that enlightenment occurs with obedience. A Christian must continue in obedience to be saved.

1Jn 3:7-10 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.




Free Will is denied specifically in John 1:12-13.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The fleshes will is the will to sin, so the will of man will never save. It does not mean that God has not put a will in us capable of receiving Him.
 
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All - used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing
The meaning of the words “all” and “every” and “everyone” has been distorted by many to make verses fit the doctrine they prescribe. As these words can refer to ambiguous groupings, it is best to ascertain the specific meaning from scripture that is explicit rather than implicit.
Example... Jill says, "All motorcycles have two wheels. " Greg responds, "That's ridiculous. A single motorcycle has two wheels. And there are of 200,000,000 motorcycles in the world. Therefore, all motorcycles would have over 400,000,000 wheels. Thus the word ALL is ambiguous and often construed by one's bias.


Your bias is showing. I can do a similar thing with the word WORLD; it's ambiguous and bias takes advantage of it.

Ok but let's break down the scripture, how many groups are there?

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. - two groups, all and those who believe - He is the savior of both.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

- two groups - us (who believe) and the whole world - can be redeemed.

Sorry but I am not biased, I am speaking the truth.
 
Have you not experienced that some do not prefer and do not do God's will, and others do prefer and do God's will?
But it does not prove Predestination.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

We see here:

1) Light has come into the world
2) Some love to sin so don't come to the light
3) Others respond to the light, willing to come out of their sins

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

As stated in John 14, those who love sin will not be enlightened, those who follow after God will. This is why some don't respond, they love sin more than God.
 
Ok but let's break down the scripture, how many groups are there?

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. - two groups, all and those who believe - He is the savior of both.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

- two groups - us (who believe) and the whole world - can be redeemed.

Sorry but I am not biased, I am speaking the truth.
How is He the Savior of all men if all men are not saved? That’s like coming upon a shipwreck with ten ppl drowning and you rescue 6. Can it be said you were the savior (savior in sense of rescuing them from death by drowning) of all ten when four perished?
 
You only assume God has left them without a witness. But man has the conscience and:

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Granted, there is evidence God has left that shows God exist and no one has an excuse to think otherwise ... but this is IRRELEVANT to our discussion.
You said:
The cross is given to all men, not just a preselected group.
To which I replied:
This is factually false. Salvation depends on faith in Christ and billions are not dead who never heard of Christ. This assume you mean "everyone without exception" when you use the term "all men".
Then you change the subject to EVERYONE HAS BEEN GIVEN PROOF THERE IS A GOD.

Again, 'the cross is given to all men' is factually false. Your premise on which you build a case is false.


The fleshes will is the will to sin, so the will of man will never save.
Agreed, but your statement invalids your premise the man is capable of believing salvificly free from God's influence. Your statement invalids the thread's contention (and you created the thread) that man has FREE WILL.
 
Sorry but I am not biased, I am speaking the truth.
I showed the word ALL is ambiguous with examples, yet you don't see it and claim to be unbiased.

Another example where ALL does not mean everyone without exception:
Matthew 3:5 At that time Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; it would be incredulous to believe everyone including babies, the blind, the disabled went to see Jesus .. .and yet your statements suggest that you can only envision the use of ALL to mean everyone without exception in Judea went to see Jesus
 
How is He the Savior of all men if all men are not saved? That’s like coming upon a shipwreck with ten ppl drowning and you rescue 6. Can it be said you were the savior (savior in sense of rescuing them from death by drowning) of all ten when four perished?

That is what free will is, either free acceptance or free rejection of God. God has given provision for all to be saved. But not all choose God's ways.
 
I showed the word ALL is ambiguous with examples, yet you don't see it and claim to be unbiased.

Another example where ALL does not mean everyone without exception:
Matthew 3:5 At that time Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; it would be incredulous to believe everyone including babies, the blind, the disabled went to see Jesus .. .and yet your statements suggest that you can only envision the use of ALL to mean everyone without exception in Judea went to see Jesus
But you are ignoring the fact that in the case of this scripture, all is stressed to actually be everyone. How do you explain the following, which I have requoted?

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. - two groups, all and those who believe - He is the savior of both.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

- two groups - us (who believe) and the whole world - can be redeemed.
 
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